Is a passbook from Bangkok Bank showing monthly deposits a valid "proof of monthly income"

[Russell17au]

2 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

When I went the income route last year, I had my tax return as supporting evidence for the stat dec. Consulate official didn't even want to look at it. Lazy buggers.

That is what has created this whole problem. The lazy embassy staff. If Thai Immigration can accept the documents from our pension providers and investment providers then why couldn't our own embassies accept the same thing. You are dead set correct. Lazy buggers

[jacko45k]

1 minute ago, Russell17au said:

That is what has created this whole problem. The lazy embassy staff. If Thai Immigration can accept the documents from our pension providers and investment providers then why couldn't our own embassies accept the same thing. You are dead set correct. Lazy buggers

Actually the question should be, why was the Embassy involved at all!

[Moonlover]

5 hours ago, cleverman said:

6 hours ago, Moonlover said:

Yes, so have I, but I've tidied it up a bit so that I don't have to show immigration all my banking business. For me that is too intrusive.

 

All they will see in my personal account will be my income arriving and immediately being transferred out again. (to our joint account)

 

5 hours ago, cleverman said:

May not be a good idea to draw it ALL out or immediately. 

That shouldn't be too difficult to deal with. In the unlikely event that they where to ask 'where has the money gone' I'll simply nod in the direction of Madam Moon.

 

I think they'll understand!

[Russell17au]

4 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Actually the question should be, why was the Embassy involved at all!

Would you have preferred that Thai Immigration officers tried to workout incomes from every different nationality and written in every different language with every different currency on those documents or would you have preferred that the embassy do 1 single document that states that they have seen proof of your income. I know what I would prefer and it is not sitting in an Immigration office for a couple of days while some immigration officer tries to sort out a persons income.

[Mike Wolfe]

7 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

They are still being accepted. Immigration has not stated they will no longer accept them.

Until immigration makes an announcement as to what will be accepted if you cannot get proof of income from your embassy nobody can answer you question with any certainty.

Exactly, when I started using my Bangkok Bank Account this month in fact I first transferred some of my savings into it but that could fluctuate between now and next year in 2020.  So every month from now on starting this month I will also transfer half of my monthly pension payments into our Bangkok Bank account which is a joint account between my wife and I.  I already did my first monthly wire transfer this month on payday.  So as I started doing this month I make my wire transfer from my bank in the states every month throughout the year and after my wire transfer posts to Bangkok Bank I go update my bank book or pass book, make sure you do that every month after your wire transfer posts.  But I get one additional document every month from Bangkok Bank which I began doing this month.  I have them print a document that proves that my monthly wire transfer originated from my bank in the states and that document is absolutely perfect because that document verifies that my monthly wire transfer is in fact coming from the United States and my bank book or pass book I believe it’s actually called will also verify my monthly deposits or rather my monthly wire transfers.  Then I just use those funds for paying bills and for living expenses, and the other half of my monthly pension payments just remain in my bank in the states and I just try and save that money every month.  Just transferring half of my monthly pension payments into my Bangkok Bank account is still more than the minimum monthly income requirement for either the marriage or the retirement visas.  I will always wire transfer about 70,000 baht per month into my Thai bank account as I began doing this month already just to make sure that I’m way above the minimum for either visa and that way I don’t have to worry about currency exchange fluctuations either which is something else people should consider.  You definitely want to wire transfer at least a little bit more than the minimum monthly income requirement per month just to be safe.  I did all of that for the first time this month and it actually works out pretty well for us.  I will also save a lot of money in ATM fees using my Bangkok Bank ATM card instead of constantly using my US bank debit card.  It’ll also encourage me to budget ourselves better and it encourages me to save the left over funds back in my United States bank account.  So in a way this is actually turning out to be a good thing, next year it saves me a trip to Bangkok to the embassy and that $50 dollars for a piece of paper.  Now I’m slowly starting to like the changes coming so far at least as long as immigration doesn’t make any new crazy laws or change anything it should be okay. But we’ll still have to wait and see what immigration says.  Obviously it’s probably gonna be the bank statement method for income verification later next year when this change takes full effect at every immigration office.  So I think it’s gonna be a good thing in the long run once everyone gets through the transition period and the growing pains so to speak.  I was actually just at Bangkok Bank yesterday taking care of that for this month.  Also here’s some good information from the embassy confirmed by the immigration bosses.  

Edited December 8, 2018 by Mike Wolfe

[Mike Wolfe]

14 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Actually the question should be, why was the Embassy involved at all!

Exactly I’m starting to see that point of view myself.  

[Moonlover]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

It is possible Thai Immigration may reject a bank book alone, on the basis the extension applicant could simply be withdrawing and redepositing the same funds every month. IMHO further proof would be required, such as evidence of an international transfer. Perhaps the FTT notation may be acceptable.

And in the meantime the applicant lives on...………………….?

 

But, none the less I take your point. If one can produce a paper trail that shows income from its source to your Thai bank account, so much the better. I'm ready for that one too.

 

As the adage goes: 'Hope for the best and prepare for the worst .

[jacko45k]

8 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

Would you have preferred that Thai Immigration officers tried to workout incomes from every different nationality and written in every different language with every different currency on those documents or would you have preferred that the embassy do 1 single document that states that they have seen proof of your income. I know what I would prefer and it is not sitting in an Immigration office for a couple of days while some immigration officer tries to sort out a persons income.

No just wrt the Embassy we were discussing. Travelling from say Chiang Rai to the Embassy in BKK to get to someone who no longer issues letters seems futile!

Also note the context......

Quote

If Thai Immigration can accept the documents from our pension providers and investment providers 

????

 

 

Edited December 8, 2018 by jacko45k

[Russell17au]

4 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

No just wrt the Embassy we were discussing. Travelling from say Chiang Rai to the Embassy in BKK to get someone who no longer issues letters seems futile!

You missed reading what was written, it was written about the problems that can now arise by the embassies not issuing the letters and Thai Immigration wanting proof of income not just bank books, how is any immigration officer going to be able to read all the different languages that live in Thailand and how are they going to understand all the different income documents from each country. A person is going to be sitting in an immigration office for days if that is the path that they chose to take. It would have been easier for us if our own embassies had of continued to issue the income letters after seeing proof of income documents.

[Mike Wolfe]

Also here’s some really good information put out by the United States Embassy from the heads of immigration.  It confirms that the income affidavits are good for six months and it confirms that the monthly income option will always be available and this information is what the embassy got from the immigration bosses. So this is more official guidance:

[NanLaew]

6 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

It would have been easier for us if our own embassies had of continued to issue the income letters after seeing proof of income documents.

Yes. it was easier but seeing proof of income documents is not the same as verifying proof of income documents. The Aussie and American Embassy people weren't interested in looking at anything. The British Embassy did do look at the proof of income documents provided but that wasn't good enough either.

[Suradit69]

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

Proving income which is what the Embassy Affidavit was supposed to do.

Exactly. Many people seem to think income and bank deposits are equivalent.

 

while it may be true that immigrations will decide to accept monthly deposits to a Thai bank as evidence of sufficient financial resources to obtain an extension, that would be something different from proof of income from sources such as Social Security or a pension, which is what the income affidavit purported to prove.

 

without something "proving" the source of money deposited in the past year, there's nothing to demonstrate that the deposits will continue in the year for which the extension is being applied. If one shows he is receiving income from a pension or Social Security, it's reasonable to assume that would continue in future.

Edited December 8, 2018 by Suradit69

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, Thaidream said:

Transferring into or placing 65K in a Bank account does not prove income.  It only proves one can obtain 65K per month from some source.  It is the source that is important , because without a firm source such as a Pension; investment income or some other type of firm legal income that can be proven the income method will not work simply by showing a bank account. 

One must be able to show a pension letter; investment income letter or some other type of proof which shows a source and then backed up by a bank account -either foreign or  Thai- showing the same exact amount- month after month.

Most investment-income varies - so would not be a consistent amount.  And those of us with foreign-businesses would have no chance at all. 

 

2 hours ago, Thaidream said:

send out verification letters to the sources of the income one claims- not every person- but a representative sample.

To which they would get a reply saying it is private information.  I realize there are ways around this, in some cases - but these are people who carelessly put our passport-info, etc on the back-side of forms they hand out - and we would be expected to set them up with privileged-access to our income-sources?

 

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

A US citizen can show   Letter from Social Security

Only if they are of-age (or disabled).

 

1 hour ago, Russell17au said:

Just think about this. the same documentation could have been provided to the embassies as proof of your income for the income letters, but that would have been too easy.

BE did this - not good enough for TI, because they were not contacting all the sources and verifying (assuming the embassies' stories are true).

 

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

When I went the income route last year, I had my tax return as supporting evidence for the stat dec. Consulate official didn't even want to look at it. Lazy buggers.

It is literally "illegal" for them to verify a document, in the case of the US Embassy.

 

1 hour ago, Suradit69 said:

while it may be true that immigrations will decide to accept monthly deposits to a Thai bank as evidence of sufficient financial resources to obtain an extension, that would be something different from proof of income from sources such as Social Security or a pension, which is what the income affidavit purported to prove.

My embassy letter just said "sources from within the USA" - which is where my business is located.

 

Being married to a Thai, I can only hope the 1-year Non-O ME Visa remains viable at nearby consulates.  If they start asking for money-proof - as is done in Penang and KL now - I hope an income-letter from a US Embassy in the country where the Thai-Consulate is located (Laos, Vietnam, or Malaysia) will be available and accepted.

 

Another long-shot is paying part of my foreign business-income directly to Thailand in the same year it is earned, paying taxes on that amount here, and using the tax-statement in combination with the bank-statements showing the foreign-sourced deposits.  Some have speculated getting foreign-deposits rolling-in is a setup to coming back for tax-payments, so I would have those bases covered.

 

The last / worst options would be taking a Thai's job, or using an agent. 

 

5 hours ago, Chicken George said:

The visa service route may put you in prison for a few years.. No good saying you did'nt know they uded fake documents.. Not a good idea anymore.

As I believe this entire "embassy-letter" issue was for the purpose of driving up agent-business (from which immigration benefits), I suspect that path is what they would prefer, and are actively-encouraging.  At some point, one wonders why one bothers to try to do what is "right," when that is clearly not what is desired from us.  As one person arguing the pro-agent position with me pointed out, some of the most respectable law-firms in the country make these extension-arrangements for a fee.

 

My only legal-worry in using the agent-route, would be that a particular agent/IO combination would fail to share whatever required percentage of their loot with the higher-ups, so get thrown under the bus, as an example to keep the other agents and IOs in-line - potentially pulling me under with them.  This is the best reason not to get involved in such things, even where/when this method of "business" is the norm, and even preferred/encouraged.

[cleverman]

5 hours ago, Thaidream said:

We are speaking of  proving income which is what the Embassy Affidavit was supposed to do.

 

Transferring into or placing 65K in a Bank account does not prove income.  It only proves one can obtain 65K per month from some source.  It is the source that is important , because without a firm source such as a Pension; investment income or some other type of firm legal income that can be proven the income method will not work simply by showing a bank account. 

One must be able to show a pension letter; investment income letter or some other type of proof which shows a source and then backed up by a bank account -either foreign or  Thai- showing the same exact amount- month after month.

I do believe I mentioned the above in my thread. "Documentation proving income" 

[cleverman]

4 hours ago, Mike Wolfe said:

Exactly, when I started using my Bangkok Bank Account this month in fact I first transferred some of my savings into it but that could fluctuate between now and next year in 2020.  So every month from now on starting this month I will also transfer half of my monthly pension payments into our Bangkok Bank account which is a joint account between my wife and I.  I already did my first monthly wire transfer this month on payday.  So as I started doing this month I make my wire transfer from my bank in the states every month throughout the year and after my wire transfer posts to Bangkok Bank I go update my bank book or pass book, make sure you do that every month after your wire transfer posts.  But I get one additional document every month from Bangkok Bank which I began doing this month.  I have them print a document that proves that my monthly wire transfer originated from my bank in the states and that document is absolutely perfect because that document verifies that my monthly wire transfer is in fact coming from the United States and my bank book or pass book I believe it’s actually called will also verify my monthly deposits or rather my monthly wire transfers.  Then I just use those funds for paying bills and for living expenses, and the other half of my monthly pension payments just remain in my bank in the states and I just try and save that money every month.  Just transferring half of my monthly pension payments into my Bangkok Bank account is still more than the minimum monthly income requirement for either the marriage or the retirement visas.  I will always wire transfer about 70,000 baht per month into my Thai bank account as I began doing this month already just to make sure that I’m way above the minimum for either visa and that way I don’t have to worry about currency exchange fluctuations either which is something else people should consider.  You definitely want to wire transfer at least a little bit more than the minimum monthly income requirement per month just to be safe.  I did all of that for the first time this month and it actually works out pretty well for us.  I will also save a lot of money in ATM fees using my Bangkok Bank ATM card instead of constantly using my US bank debit card.  It’ll also encourage me to budget ourselves better and it encourages me to save the left over funds back in my United States bank account.  So in a way this is actually turning out to be a good thing, next year it saves me a trip to Bangkok to the embassy and that $50 dollars for a piece of paper.  Now I’m slowly starting to like the changes coming so far at least as long as immigration doesn’t make any new crazy laws or change anything it should be okay. But we’ll still have to wait and see what immigration says.  Obviously it’s probably gonna be the bank statement method for income verification later next year when this change takes full effect at every immigration office.  So I think it’s gonna be a good thing in the long run once everyone gets through the transition period and the growing pains so to speak.  I was actually just at Bangkok Bank yesterday taking care of that for this month.  Also here’s some good information from the embassy confirmed by the immigration bosses.  

Maby that long post could have been condensed to , you are going to put the required amount of money into your bank each month. As Mr Joe has said several  times, wait and see what happens. 

[johnmcc6]

My agent says you need a combination of say 400,000 in the bank and income in a monthly account showing an annual income up to another 400,000 or more so that over the year you have 800,000 This has been the case for me with the deposit book for the past 7 years. I may need bank statements instead of deposit book but either way it comes to over 800,000. What immigration seems  to be doing is catching out people who work illegally or have no way of showing where their money comes from. Borrowing from a friend for a few days may have worked in the past but no longer hence the need for proof of income from a pension source not just topping up ones account from say on line selling or work. They want to see where it comes from. This is for retirement visa. They seem hell bent on cleaning out abusers of the system but it appears if you have your house in order it is no problem. Of course we shall see??

[JLCrab]

9 hours ago, Suradit69 said:

without something "proving" the source of money deposited in the past year, there's nothing to demonstrate that the deposits will continue in the year for which the extension is being applied.

Well, if not, then they won't get an extensions  NEXT year.

[JackoJomtien]

For those Australian expats reading this blog, the Australian Embassy in Bangkok will also be following the US and UK Embassies in refusing to sign “Proof of Income Statutory Declarations” as from 7^th January 2019 for Retirement Visa extensions.

Edited December 9, 2018 by JackoJomtien

[Skallywag]

Think the immigration bureau explaines it pretty well.  https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_22

 

Seems 800,000 baht in a Thai bank is or will be necessary very soon.  One observation is many farangs seem to not trust banks in Thailand - yet there has never been any evidence that a major thai bank has become insolvent in any postings I've seen or googled

[Mike Wolfe]

Shouldn’t be a problem according to the law you can technically verify your monthly income many different ways including pension letters and other ways.  But I’ll probably stick with my Bangkok Bank Account as well every month just to be safe.  Although technically only the money in the bank option actually has to be in a Thai bank but with the income affidavits being phased out it’s probably a good idea to transfer at least some of your monthly income in your Bangkok Bank account that’s what I’m doing.  Probably a good idea to transfer at least the minimum income requirement per month for the entire year.  I transfer well above the minimum amount of my income every month just so I don’t have to worry about currency exchange fluctuations.  I also transferred some of my savings into my Bangkok Bank account but that fluctuates and could change in a year up or down so I always go by my monthly income whenever I get my extensions because my monthly income is always solid.  I’m just another pensioner here but I make more than triple the minimum monthly income requirement for either the marriage or retirement visa.  

 

I attached some official information from the embassy and the official government Thai Immigration website that should very clearly clarify everything for you and everyone else who’s been questioning the process just because the income affidavits are being phased out.  Besides the income affidavits being phased out nothing else regarding income verification has actually changed according to the attached Thai law.  In fact I’ll give you the link for the Thai Immigration website as well pertaining to marriage visas.  

 

The attached link for the Thai Immigration website pertaining to marriage visas really cleared everything up for me.  This link and the second attached document very clearly explains the requirements for marriage visas and the monthly income requirement or the lump sum option, you can use either or according to the law and here’s a copy of it.  

 

If you go to the link I attached for the Thai Immigration government website you can clearly see all the information regarding marriage visas and it clearly explains the law in black and white and it’s very clear and pretty simple.  

 

This attached information should lay to rest a lot of people’s concerns:  

 

https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_18

 

Edited December 9, 2018 by Mike Wolfe

[Pattaya46]

2 hours ago, JackoJomtien said:

For those Australian expats reading this blog, the Australian Embassy in Bangkok will also be following the US and UK Embassies in refusing to sign “Proof of Income Statutory Declarations” as from 7^th January 2019 for Retirement Visa extensions. //

Old news from November 2... See there:

 

But recent reports that Australia Embassy will in fact continue to provide Income Letter to those who can prove their income 

[Mike Wolfe]

Shouldn’t be a problem according to the law you can technically verify your monthly income many different ways including pension letters and other ways.  But I’ll probably stick with my Bangkok Bank Account as well every month just to be safe.  Although technically only the money in the bank option actually has to be in a Thai bank but with the income affidavits being phased out it’s probably a good idea to transfer at least some of your monthly income in your Bangkok Bank account that’s what I’m doing.  Probably a good idea to transfer at least the minimum income requirement per month for the entire year.  I transfer well above the minimum amount of my income every month just so I don’t have to worry about currency exchange fluctuations.  I also transferred some of my savings into my Bangkok Bank account but that fluctuates and could change in a year up or down so I always go by my monthly income whenever I get my extensions because my monthly income is always solid.  I’m just another pensioner here but I make more than triple the minimum monthly income requirement for either the marriage or retirement visa.  

 

Basically just be prepared to verify your monthly income or money in the bank next year for after the income affidavits eventually go away.  It’s supposed to be a six month process according to the second official document.  

 

I attached some official information from the embassy and the official government Thai Immigration website that should very clearly clarify everything for you and everyone else who’s been questioning the process just because the income affidavits are being phased out.  Besides the income affidavits being phased out nothing else regarding income verification has actually changed according to the attached Thai law.  In fact I’ll give you the link for the Thai Immigration website as well pertaining to marriage visas.  

 

The attached link for the Thai Immigration website pertaining to marriage visas really cleared everything up for me.  This link and the second attached document very clearly explains the requirements for marriage visas and the monthly income requirement or the lump sum option, you can use either or according to the law and here’s a copy of it.  

 

If you go to the link I attached for the Thai Immigration government website you can clearly see all the information regarding marriage visas and it clearly explains the law in black and white and it’s very clear and pretty simple.  

 

This attached information should lay to rest a lot of people’s concerns:  

 

https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_18

 

 

[amexpat]

11 hours ago, cleverman said:

Maby that long post could have been condensed to , you are going to put the required amount of money into your bank each month. As Mr Joe has said several  times, wait and see what happens. 

Maybe that long post didn't need to be re-posted. ????

[amexpat]

Most US social security recipients receive less than 65K per month but have savings - maybe less than 800K in Thai banks.

 

The rule is/was any combination of income and savings adding up to 800K is acceptable. (e.g. 40K / month + 320K in bank.)

 

Any speculation if this is still the case? 

[KhunFred]

The idea that using an agent can get you thrown in prison is beyond absurd. It has never happened once. The visa services even have representatives on hand at IO offices. Spreading this kind of false information should be grounds for a permanent ban. ????????

[flexomike]

16 hours ago, Mike Wolfe said:

Exactly, when I started using my Bangkok Bank Account this month in fact I first transferred some of my savings into it but that could fluctuate between now and next year in 2020.  So every month from now on starting this month I will also transfer half of my monthly pension payments into our Bangkok Bank account which is a joint account between my wife and I.  I already did my first monthly wire transfer this month on payday.  So as I started doing this month I make my wire transfer from my bank in the states every month throughout the year and after my wire transfer posts to Bangkok Bank I go update my bank book or pass book, make sure you do that every month after your wire transfer posts.  But I get one additional document every month from Bangkok Bank which I began doing this month.  I have them print a document that proves that my monthly wire transfer originated from my bank in the states and that document is absolutely perfect because that document verifies that my monthly wire transfer is in fact coming from the United States and my bank book or pass book I believe it’s actually called will also verify my monthly deposits or rather my monthly wire transfers.  Then I just use those funds for paying bills and for living expenses, and the other half of my monthly pension payments just remain in my bank in the states and I just try and save that money every month.  Just transferring half of my monthly pension payments into my Bangkok Bank account is still more than the minimum monthly income requirement for either the marriage or the retirement visas.  I will always wire transfer about 70,000 baht per month into my Thai bank account as I began doing this month already just to make sure that I’m way above the minimum for either visa and that way I don’t have to worry about currency exchange fluctuations either which is something else people should consider.  You definitely want to wire transfer at least a little bit more than the minimum monthly income requirement per month just to be safe.  I did all of that for the first time this month and it actually works out pretty well for us.  I will also save a lot of money in ATM fees using my Bangkok Bank ATM card instead of constantly using my US bank debit card.  It’ll also encourage me to budget ourselves better and it encourages me to save the left over funds back in my United States bank account.  So in a way this is actually turning out to be a good thing, next year it saves me a trip to Bangkok to the embassy and that $50 dollars for a piece of paper.  Now I’m slowly starting to like the changes coming so far at least as long as immigration doesn’t make any new crazy laws or change anything it should be okay. But we’ll still have to wait and see what immigration says.  Obviously it’s probably gonna be the bank statement method for income verification later next year when this change takes full effect at every immigration office.  So I think it’s gonna be a good thing in the long run once everyone gets through the transition period and the growing pains so to speak.  I was actually just at Bangkok Bank yesterday taking care of that for this month.  Also here’s some good information from the embassy confirmed by the immigration bosses.  

Bank account should be in your name only if you use a joint account you need double the money in the account

[JackThompson]

2 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

But recent reports that Australia Embassy will in fact continue to provide Income Letter to those who can prove their income 

I think you refer to them doing a notary-type stamp for people swearing a document is true and correct.  Hasn't this service always been available? 

 

This process is often used to "certify" university-degrees and such, and could also be used for other pieces of printed-paper, whether genuine or not, claiming to demonstrate a particular income-stream. 

 

I know the USA Embassy will do this, but the embassy-officials do not do any checking with the issuing institution of the document, to verify its veracity.  They also add a caveat to their certification, that they are only verifying that a particular citizen of their country is present and swears to what is being "certified". 

 

Other than changing the piece of paper being sworn-to, I do not see the difference, from a the perspective of someone who was willing to commit a felony (USA and Australia) for the previous letter.  So why would it be any different from immigration's perspective?  Maybe it will, though - who knows.

[JLCrab]

Answer to OP query "Is a passbook from Bangkok Bank showing monthly deposits a valid "proof of monthly income"?

 

Maybe.

[WorriedNoodle]

On 12/8/2018 at 11:25 AM, Moonlover said:

All they will see in my personal account will be my income arriving and immediately being transferred out again. (to our joint account)

But there would still need to be a verification where the income was coming from (i.e. a pension scheme) otherwise you could just transfer 65k in and out each month and never need more than that? Simplest to just have 800k in for 3 months, no need to prove where that comes from.

[JLCrab]

47 minutes ago, WorriedNoodle said:

But there would still need to be a verification where the income was coming from (i.e. a pension scheme) otherwise you could just transfer 65k in and out each month and never need more than that?

But the folks at IMM could ask that you sign a statement along the lines of this rather than their having to go through possibly multiple source documents (DRAFT):

 

I hereby declare that I have not made any transfer of funds from my ___XYZ___ bank account in Thailand either directly or indirectly that were then re-deposited in the same bank or any other bank that is used to transfer monthly funds to ___XYZ___ bank in Thailand for purposes of this extension of stay request as per the accompanying TM7 form.

 

So if you have made a false statement to an RTP IMM officer in an RTP IMM Police Station, they can arrest you on the spot.

Edited December 9, 2018 by JLCrab