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Thai Embassy in Vientiane issues warning to visa runners


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1 hour ago, JackThompson said:

Those entering Thailand with Valid Tourist Visas are breaking no laws or rules - unless they don't have 20K Baht in Cash to show upon entry (silly rule, given ATMs, but is on-the-books), or violate the terms of the visa (no working, don't overstay).

Correct. Foreigners entering Thailand with a valid visa of any type are breaking no laws or rules as long as they get an immigration official's permission to stay stamped in the passport.

 

A blunder was made, though, with the change from visa rubber stamps to visa adhesive stickers. For a single-entry tourist visa, for example, the stamp said correctly "Good for a single journey to Thailand", whereas the sticker says "NO. OF ENTRY: S". The visa itself does not grant entry into Thailand; it merely allows travel to Thailand. Between the end of the journey and entry into Thailand is the immigration officer who grants entry and is known occasionally to deny it.

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14 minutes ago, Maestro said:

A blunder was made, though, with the change from visa rubber stamps to visa adhesive stickers. For a single-entry tourist visa, for example, the stamp said correctly "Good for a single journey to Thailand", whereas the sticker says "NO. OF ENTRY: S". The visa itself does not grant entry into Thailand; it merely allows travel to Thailand. Between the end of the journey and entry into Thailand is the immigration officer who grants entry and is known occasionally to deny it.

S for Single and M for Multiple.

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4 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

Elite visa, Investor Visa.. 

 

If your wealthy enough for those they want you.. They set the level of wealth they desire, not you. 

So a persons value in life is based on how much money they have....

 

A very wealthy person would be a person who is highly valued as a person..Dispite any other qualities....

A person of modest means is a 2nd or 3rd class person whos presence is distasteful and they are lucky if they are even tolerated.... 

Edited by fforest1
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1 hour ago, Maestro said:

Correct. Foreigners entering Thailand with a valid visa of any type are breaking no laws or rules as long as they get an immigration official's permission to stay stamped in the passport.

 

A blunder was made, though, with the change from visa rubber stamps to visa adhesive stickers. For a single-entry tourist visa, for example, the stamp said correctly "Good for a single journey to Thailand", whereas the sticker says "NO. OF ENTRY: S". The visa itself does not grant entry into Thailand; it merely allows travel to Thailand. Between the end of the journey and entry into Thailand is the immigration officer who grants entry and is known occasionally to deny it.

There are no blunders on this level......This is just another example of the visa Anaconda ever so slowly squeezing the life out of all visa classes....The Anaconda may relax the tightening here and there to give a false sense that the worst is over when the truth is the opposite...

Only the elite visa seems untouchable....

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6 hours ago, elviajero said:

And the ability to work remotely has put a big spanner in the works too.

 

 

 

Digital-nomadism was declared legal in Chiang Mai by Thai authorities. There are many live/work spaces that exist out in the open. Why not create a visa for this class of people? When the winds of change blow, build windmills, not walls.

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2 hours ago, fforest1 said:

There are no blunders on this level......This is just another example of the visa Anaconda ever so slowly squeezing the life out of all visa classes....The Anaconda may relax the tightening here and there to give a false sense that the worst is over when the truth is the opposite...

Only the elite visa seems untouchable....

Those fake tourists must go, but first fine them.  They won't be missed. 

 

The 800k retirement scheme will remain, no reason to get rid of it.  The 65K income statement scheme just needs to be sorted out, sieving will occur, no drama here.

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Most certainly it's not just thailand tightening up. Cambodia and extremely concerning Phillipines new rules including deport for renting a hooker and almost unbelievably.. Deported for being rude!!


"Exit Clearance will now be required after 60 days - [MTV] Essentially if you stay in country for > 60 days you need Tax Clearance before you can leave, even if leaving for a holiday - IIRC this is currently 6 Months
● Foreigners Permanent Residency will be cancelled on divorce, relationship abandonment, or failure to provide support for Filipino spouse and family(does not disclose as what extent of her existing family). - [MTV] Scary 
● Foreigners Permanent Residency will cancelled if outside the Philippines more than 1 year.
● Foreigners will no longer be allowed to establish any type of business under a visitor visa.- [MTV] One of the major selling points of PI over TH
● New visa applicants will be required to have a physical and mental evaluation prior to getting an immigrant visa. - [MTV] Speechless
● Entry into the Philippines will be denied for those believed to arriving for the purpose of getting prostitutes or showing "disrespect" to any government official or employee. - [MTV] Some may guffaw at this but anybody who's visited the Philippines for the past 10+ years can tell you about clampdowns in Manila & (especially) Cebu 
● Deportable offenses: engaging in prostitution,  being deemed a public charge, being deemed undesirable, and being "rude" .- [MTV] Speechless
● Foreigners must register within 60 days of arrival and update any changes in said registration within 7 days. - [MTV] TM30/TM28 anybody?
● Also states that the immigration agency can start requiring cash bonds on demand to ensure immigration adherence. Provision perhaps for longer stays?- [MTV] at the moment the only cash requirement outside of visa expenses is if you go for an SRRV Visa, this sounds more like they're going to want to see Funds in the Bank for people who are staying longer on any kind of basis
● Imprisonment offences of not less than 5 years: falsely claiming to be a Filipino citizen, pretending to be someone else or using false documents, making a false statement in any immigration"


Thailand is still the bees knees

Only other option is a really poor one 20 years behind thailand and that's Vietnam

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2 hours ago, Ebumbu said:

Digital-nomadism was declared legal in Chiang Mai by Thai authorities. There are many live/work spaces that exist out in the open.

No it wasn't.

 

Quote

Why not create a visa for this class of people? When the winds of change blow, build windmills, not walls.

Why should DN's get preferential treatment and be allowed to work in Thailand when husbands and fathers of Thais can't? Just because you can work anywhere doesn't mean you can work anywhere!

 

They are not going to create a special class of visa for DN's, because it would open a whole can of worms and new problems. They will simply keep tolerating it, until/if the numbers grow too much and it becomes an issue, at which point they will clamp down.

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15 hours ago, vinegarbase said:

I tried to tell people. Every time there is a crackdown on illegal immigration it always comes hand in hand with making legal immigration more difficult and screwing over those just trying to follow the rules. 

 

Thailand is not going back to the Thailand of 5-10 years ago. They are paying tribute to the new emperors in China. "Farang go home" is the new Thai slogan. Good news is that you can free yourselves of the Thailand chains. Go get your Panama permanent residency in about 2 months and enjoy your freedom. You can own land, guns, get permanent residency and enjoy your freedom they way you are supposed to. Forget all this Thai immigration madness.  These are the guys to go through and don't wait before it's too late to make your backup plan. https://www.joyful-feet.com

 

if you open that website you will see that it focuses on the haoppy few who have a lot of money. So not a real alternative for most thai expats.

 

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3 hours ago, elviajero said:

No it wasn't.

 

Why should DN's get preferential treatment and be allowed to work in Thailand when husbands and fathers of Thais can't? Just because you can work anywhere doesn't mean you can work anywhere!

 

They are not going to create a special class of visa for DN's, because it would open a whole can of worms and new problems. They will simply keep tolerating it, until/if the numbers grow too much and it becomes an issue, at which point they will clamp down.

Who knows they just might create a Digital Nomad visa for slackers who want to live in Thailand for years making just enough money to scrape by and compete for Thais for 3000 baht a month rooms....

Thailand will realize if they do not make a slacker visa soon they will loose the slackers....The slackers  will just go some where else....

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4 minutes ago, weri said:

what would be the right visa for a 70+ retired male with a pension income of THB 50k and little savings?? That means there is no way the THB 800k can be achieved?  

An extension of stay based upon retirement might be possible using the combination of income and money in the bank. That would be an annual income of 600k baht and 200k baht in a Thai bank to reach a total of 800k baht.

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Honestly, if you read the letter in the OP, it seems they are wording it to be mainly concerned about "working illegally" in Thailand on SETV's. I suspect if you prove you have the correct funds in the hand/bank, fill out the paperwork exactly, have a plane ticket back to you home country, ect. you'll probably be ok.

 

After my experience in Phnom Penh and others :

 

You can tell they are cracking down, but we both got back in on Visa exempt stamps while holding all the "gotcha" tricks such as flight out, 20k baht. Vientiane is doing us ALL A FAVOR by posting this, THERE WAS NO SUCH NOTICE IN CAMBODIA and they just took your money and denied you with a big red mark in your passport. Everyone should be glad they posted this so people don't waste their time and money.

 

Also, there was a thread the other day talking about how there is 1000 people a day at the Vientiane embassy because the others were cracking down, so the volume all moved there. Imagine being an employee there doing 1000 SETV's a day! We are not so lucky anymore. We're just going to have to be on our toes and get a little more creative, SETV here, Visa exempt there, 30 days out over here.

 

Also, no one knows how the new visas will effect the situation, if and when they get their test period. It really seems to me immigration just wants to prove your not working in the country and have money.

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10 hours ago, elviajero said:

Because a countries immigration policy is not just about money. You're describing a long term visitor, not a tourist. Thailand has options for long term stays and the simple fact is that some people don't qualify. Most countries, Thailand included, want tourists to visit, spend money and leave.

 

Not many under 50's can self fund themselves for months/years without working.

I am still not seeing an issue which needs to be addressed.  Millions of under-50s around the world can fund themselves for life without working an illegal-job in Thailand.  The more of those who live and spend their incomes here, the better for Thailand.

 

They shut down the perpetual border-bounce / visa-exempt method to keep out the poorest types of longer-stayers, which I can somewhat understand.  But why go after those who can afford extensions,  foreign-trips + visas?   Just entering Laos (to apply for a Thai Visa) is ~1500 Baht - almost as much as the VOA charge just waived for the Chinese.  Total cost of the trip (one of the cheapest options) is far more.


I understand the "illegal worker" issue - which is a "money" issue (harms the country) - but immigration issues L-Visas to drive down wages with poor-workers to the level that a Thai won't take the job - so that doesn't seem to be a priority.  If a foreigner from a higher-wage nation is working here, it would be working a higher-paying job that includes a work-permit.  I could understand greater restrictions on those, to ensure no Thais are being blocked from careers by foreigners and/or that the foreigner is training a Thai from day-one.  But, again, this does not seem to be a priority - no "training mandate," etc.

 

English-teacher employers often delay work-permits, per reports here, but a permit is usually given after some time.  In addition, Thailand desperately needs English teachers and doesn't have Thai candidates.  I am not condoning working a single day w/o a work permit (I won't) - and recommend against doing it - but there is not a "harm" factor at play. 

I cannot think of a logical reason that Thailand would want to boot those who have their own foreign income-streams.
 

10 hours ago, elviajero said:

And IO's aren't breaking any laws/rules by denying entry to visitors living long term in the country as tourists.

They cannot live long-term here.  They can only stay 60+30 days, then the process starts over from scratch.  Immigration are not breaking the law by removing overstayers (living long-term as tourists), but, they have a set of limited valid causes in law to prevent entry to someone with a valid Tourist Visa, who has no criminal/overstay history.  Applicant "has been here x-time before," is not among those valid, listed reasons. 

 

The MFA has already cleared any required money-issue, except for the 20K Baht cash in-hand, with all Visas.  They could choose to change the monetary requirements for any visa at any time.  Immigration do not have a law/rule which allows them to pick and choose which visas / MFA processes to honor, so rejecting based on money is not in accordance with the law.

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1 hour ago, swineninety9 said:

Also, there was a thread the other day talking about how there is 1000 people a day at the Vientiane embassy because the others were cracking down, so the volume all moved there. Imagine being an employee there doing 1000 SETV's a day!

1000 SETVs per day @ 1000 baht a piece is 1 million baht a day.  Not sure how the funding for embassies works, but if it's a percentage scheme, the ambassador there ought to be delighted!

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11 hours ago, KiChakayan said:

Thailand Elite is your answer. So, all situations have been covered. If you are "financially secure" and have such a high motivation to stay in Thailand then nothing should stop you from getting one.

Except the price, which is not relative to the market-value of the offer, compared to the cost of legal-options in other countries in the region (not to mention the world).  There are far too many other places one can live without paying a huge lump-sum for temporary-permission (PR is not even possible after decades here on an elite) to spend money into the economy.

 

9 hours ago, fforest1 said:

There are no blunders on this level......This is just another example of the visa Anaconda ever so slowly squeezing the life out of all visa classes....The Anaconda may relax the tightening here and there to give a false sense that the worst is over when the truth is the opposite...

Only the elite visa seems untouchable....

They shut down elite applications for awhile some years back (did not invalidate then-current holder's visas).  Eventually, some sort of "settlement" was arrived-at, which surely was a matter of who gets what cut of the spoils, and it has been available since.

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7 hours ago, farangx said:

The 800k retirement scheme will remain, no reason to get rid of it.  The 65K income statement scheme just needs to be sorted out, sieving will occur, no drama here.

I predict that the lifestyles of certain folks will grow to exceed that of the increase in agent-laundered extra-income spoils, resulting from the embassy-income-letter change.  At that point, expect the 800K rule to be changed, to drive another percentage of "Get a Proper Visa (extension)" folks to the agents. 

 

And they will react in surprise, as fair-weather friends, with whom they joyfully bludgeoned "not proper visa" expats in the past, turn and point fingers at them as the latest group of "insufficient money" interlopers. 

 

2 hours ago, fforest1 said:

Who knows they just might create a Digital Nomad visa for slackers who want to live in Thailand for years making just enough money to scrape by and compete for Thais for 3000 baht a month rooms....

Thais pay less than that - and many landlords don't allow non-Thais to live in their rooms.  In any case, there is no shortage of rooms for farangs - and given the rip-off electric-rates many "cheap rooms" charge, one is better off renting a condo, anyhow.

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7 hours ago, madmen said:

Most certainly it's not just thailand tightening up. Cambodia and extremely concerning Phillipines new rules including deport for renting a hooker and almost unbelievably.. Deported for being rude!!
...
Thailand is still the bees knees
Only other option is a really poor one 20 years behind thailand and that's Vietnam

The PI has many options for business (outsourcing, etc) which are much easier than Thailand.  Also better retirement-based options.  And one can stay as a Tourist for 3 YEARS before a border-bounce to re-start again. 

 

Of course, if busted for breaking laws one gets booted.  That includes lying to immigration, which is completely unnecessary in the PI, given they banned agents (aka "fixers").  The IOs there are honest and friendly - not rude/cruel partners with agents (as in some - Not All - offices in Thailand). 

 

And of course your PR is revoked if abandoning one's wife and children (family), but I doubt anyone is getting the boot for not paying for some uncle's cigarette habit.  The major difference is, if you are married to a PI gal, they treat you as a "good guy" for supporting your wife - the opposite of what one may experience here.

The primary objective of the PI authorities - as reflected in those rules - is to Preserve Families and keep out lawbreakers.  Yes, they are very socially-conservative - consider there is no "divorce" in the PI, for starters.

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11 hours ago, fforest1 said:

So a persons value in life is based on how much money they have....

 

A very wealthy person would be a person who is highly valued as a person..Dispite any other qualities....

A person of modest means is a 2nd or 3rd class person whos presence is distasteful and they are lucky if they are even tolerated.... 

I think you have just nailed the thai definition of a hiso.

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2 hours ago, dpspike said:

There are some pretty smug comments in this thread from farangs with long-term visas who apparently resent those farangs in Thailand who don't, due to age, financial status, employment status, etc. Such comments, while smacking of social superiority,

Yes and there are some on here who seem to think that they have some preordained right to live in Thailand long-term whatever circumstances might be their particular case.

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The PI has many options for business (outsourcing, etc) which are much easier than Thailand.  Also better retirement-based options.  And one can stay as a Tourist for 3 YEARS before a border-bounce to re-start again. 
 
Of course, if busted for breaking laws one gets booted.  That includes lying to immigration, which is completely unnecessary in the PI, given they banned agents (aka "fixers").  The IOs there are honest and friendly - not rude/cruel partners with agents (as in some - Not All - offices in Thailand). 
 
And of course your PR is revoked if abandoning one's wife and children (family), but I doubt anyone is getting the boot for not paying for some uncle's cigarette habit.  The major difference is, if you are married to a PI gal, they treat you as a "good guy" for supporting your wife - the opposite of what one may experience here.

The primary objective of the PI authorities - as reflected in those rules - is to Preserve Families and keep out lawbreakers.  Yes, they are very socially-conservative - consider there is no "divorce" in the PI, for starters.
Good balanced post.
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23 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

Yes and there are some on here who seem to think that they have some preordained right to live in Thailand long-term whatever circumstances might be their particular case.

Have to agree. Think its a western mindset. As one example only.. I have taken my Thai gf many times to au over the years. Multi entry 12 month. If she left and reentered every 3 months, she would not be admmitted. Reason the visa was a tourist visa. In last couple of years been wanting do round world gig. Its just too hard (not for me, for her). We go Japan often ....I will stop there. Western people been stop complain about Thai imm rules. Can a Thai enter visa exempt to the holly grail countries. No. So why 15 day VE to Japan. Please don't reply because Japan is part of Asia. 

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3 hours ago, JackThompson said:

They cannot live long-term here.  They can only stay 60+30 days, then the process starts over from scratch.  Immigration are not breaking the law by removing overstayers (living long-term as tourists), but, they have a set of limited valid causes in law to prevent entry to someone with a valid Tourist Visa, who has no criminal/overstay history.  Applicant "has been here x-time before," is not among those valid, listed reasons. 

 

But the IO can refuse that tourist entry if he finds he does not fit the profile of a long term tourists.  Valid visa does not guarantee entry into the country. His numerous back to back 60+30 days entries won't help him.  He will need to convince the IO that he really cannot get enough of the country.  Refusing entry does not mean he is banned.  The IO could be suggesting that he takes a break, have a holiday outside Thailand, then come back later for more of it. 

 

Perhaps immigration should have a rule that if the tourist has a 60+30 days back to back, then he must stay out of Thailand for 180 days before he can come back in.  This is very fair for the tourist, after all he is still a tourist.

 

 

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3 hours ago, JackThompson said:

Except the price, which is not relative to the market-value of the offer, compared to the cost of legal-options in other countries in the region (not to mention the world).  There are far too many other places one can live without paying a huge lump-sum for temporary-permission (PR is not even possible after decades here on an elite) to spend money into the economy.

 

I don't see price of the TE visa an issue.  TE is a nice option for those who want to stay long term but don't qualify for the usual long term stay based on marriage, work or retirement.  Without which it would be impossible for a 30 year old foreigner to live here for very extended period, for now that is.  It is better he shopped around for a country he likes.  In the end it is all about choices for him.

 

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2 hours ago, farangx said:

But the IO can refuse that tourist entry if he finds he does not fit the profile of a long term tourists.

There is nothing in immigration law or current ministerial orders, which references something like "profile of... tourist" regarding those attempting entry with a Tourist Visa. 

 

Such rules, though vague, do exist for visa-exempt entries.

 

2 hours ago, farangx said:

The IO could be suggesting that he takes a break, have a holiday outside Thailand, then come back later for more of it. 

Unfortunately, we don't even know how long that break would need to be - and we have cases of prior stayers who were interrogated and/or denied after being gone for 6 months or more. 

In some respects, it would be nice if the problem entry points would at least publish their unlawful profiling system, so those who are not willing to travel to law-abiding entry-points could at least know what is expected (how long to stay away and spend their money elsewhere).  I assume they cannot publish this, because it would require admitting they are acting outside of the law - similar to covering up their activity by using unrelated denial-of-entry stamps based on actual laws, when not demonstrably applicable to the person who is denied-entry. 

 

2 hours ago, farangx said:

Perhaps immigration should have a rule that if the tourist has a 60+30 days back to back, then he must stay out of Thailand for 180 days before he can come back in.  This is very fair for the tourist, after all he is still a tourist.

That would make condo rental-rates even more affordable for those with longer-stay options - just as changes to-date have cut them by 40%+ in some areas (Jomtien, where I used to live).  So, good for some expats - I lived in a better condo for less money year-on-year for several, due to this.

 

But, this would also unnecessarily strip even more Thais from gainful employment, beyond those who have lost their jobs to-date from the existing bad-policies.  I don't expect immigration to be looking after my best-interests - it's not their job - though it would be nice if they considered what the Thais affected by their policies would prefer.

 

1 hour ago, farangx said:

I don't see price of the TE visa an issue.  TE is a nice option for those who want to stay long term but don't qualify for the usual long term stay based on marriage, work or retirement.  Without which it would be impossible for a 30 year old foreigner to live here for very extended period, for now that is.  It is better he shopped around for a country he likes.  In the end it is all about choices for him.

It is ~10x of the cost of a 1-year's visas / extensions in Vietnam, Cambodia, or the PI - payable 5 or more years in-advance.  If it were 2x the cost, and available annually, that would be workable. 

But Thailand could still do much better than this, for many under-50s, by offering easy paths to opening businesses with offshore operations (not competing with Thai businesses, any more than they already are if the expat is living/working-remotely in Cambodia), and collecting business and personal taxes, instead.  This would inevitably lead to some Thai hires, as well.

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