Home Bread Making

[sharktooth]

I recently bought a bread maker as I was fed up with the garbage sold in CM. Anyhoo, had three efforts already at “healthy” bread and while each tasted great, they completely collapsed during the rise cycle. I suspect it is because I am adding too many grains combined with whole wheat flour (although I did try and balance it up with proportions of white flour).

 

On another recipe I followed it to the letter which included one cup of multigrain cereal and that collapsed as well, but it still tasted good. 

 

I have have been reading a lot on it and believe I may need to add Vital Wheat Gluten to my whole wheat grain recipes for my next effort.

 

I realise it’s a learning curve, but any input would help.

[KittenKong]

I suggest that you start with a mixture of 25% wholemeal flour and 75% white bread flour, and see if that works OK. If it does then you can vary the recipe in stages. If it doesnt then there is something else wrong.

 

Personally I do my bread entirely by hand, and I dont even knead it these days (too lazy). Comes out fine.

 

My recipe, which makes a loaf that rises nicely but still has some taste and texture:

 

280g warm water.

Add 10g dried bread yeast. Stir till dissolved.

Add 100g wholemeal flour.

Add 300g white bread flour.

Add 6g salt.

Mix well with a spoon. Cover and leave for 5 minutes.

Mix by hand for a minute.

Cover and leave for an hour.

Mix by hand for one minute again.

Place into a silicone baking mould and leave for an hour or until doubled in size.

Bake in a 220 degree oven for about 15 minutes, then remove the mould and bake the loaf only for another 15 minutes. (Baking times may vary according to your oven.)

 

Anything you do that reduces the proportion of white bread flour will tend to make it rise less, and so you may need to leave it a bit longer or use flour improver. Even so it is never going to rise as well as a white loaf.

[sharktooth]

1 hour ago, KittenKong said:

I suggest that you start with a mixture of 25% wholemeal flour and 75% white bread flour, and see if that works OK. If it does then you can vary the recipe in stages. If it doesnt then there is something else wrong.

 

Personally I do my bread entirely by hand, and I dont even knead it these days (too lazy). Comes out fine.

 

My recipe, which makes a loaf that rises nicely but still has some taste and texture:

 

280g warm water.

Add 10g dried bread yeast. Stir till dissolved.

Add 100g wholemeal flour.

Add 300g white bread flour.

Add 6g salt.

Mix well with a spoon. Cover and leave for 5 minutes.

Mix by hand for a minute.

Cover and leave for an hour.

Mix by hand for one minute again.

Place into a silicone baking mould and leave for an hour or until doubled in size.

Bake in a 220 degree oven for about 15 minutes, then remove the mould and bake the loaf only for another 15 minutes. (Baking times may vary according to your oven.)

 

Anything you do that reduces the proportion of white bread flour will tend to make it rise less, and so you may need to leave it a bit longer or use flour improver. Even so it is never going to rise as well as a white loaf.

Thanks Kitten, but I just bung all my ingredients in the bread machine in the order specified which when using instant yeast says this is kept dry and away from the salt when mixing.

 

Do you think adding a cup of mixed seeds is also contributing to the collapse? Have you tried using Vital Wheat Gluten?

[KittenKong]

4 minutes ago, sharktooth said:

Do you think adding a cup of mixed seeds is also contributing to the collapse?

Seems unlikely to me. Try the same recipe without the seeds and see what happens.

 

4 minutes ago, sharktooth said:

Have you tried using Vital Wheat Gluten?

No. The only additive I've ever used is Vitamin C which is a recognised flour improver. I dont even use that any more.

[BritManToo]

23 minutes ago, sharktooth said:

when using instant yeast says this is kept dry and away from the salt when mixing.

Where you put the ingredients only matters if you are using a delayed bake, cos the *yeast goes off.

* Instant dried yeast is designed to be put dry in the machine, it's not supposed to get wet until the paddle starts turning.

[sharktooth]

1 minute ago, BritManToo said:

Where you put the ingredients only matters if you are using a delayed bake, cos the yeast goes off.

I’ve never used the delay function. Do you add the instant yeast to the water to get it active first? Is this where I’m maybe going wrong?

[BritManToo]

2 hours ago, sharktooth said:

recently bought a bread maker as I was fed up with the garbage sold in CM. Anyhoo, had three efforts already at “healthy” bread and while each tasted great, they completely collapsed during the rise cycle. I suspect it is because I am adding too many grains combined with whole wheat flour (although I did try and balance it up with proportions of white flour).

I use the following for 500gm loaf of wholewheat bread in my machine.

1/2 teaspoon salt.

20 gm soy oil

15 gm white sugar (food for the yeast, not for the final bread)

170 ml water

1 & 1/3 cup bread flour

2/3 cup wholewheat flour

1 teaspoon instant dried yeast (fermipan red)

Gives good results every time.

 

Collapsed rise is usually too much liquid in the mix.

More than 1/3 of the flour whole wheat (or anything else) rarely works in a machine.

If you want to add different grains/nuts/fruits reduce the whole wheat by the same amount.

Stick to 2/3 white bread flour in every mix.

Sometimes I use half the wholewheat and an equal amount of rye flour or muesli, as long as you stick with 2/3 of your mix white bread flour, it always works.  

[Bruce Aussie Chiang Mai]

I never had problem 100 percent wholemeal flour, probably poor yeast or touching salt. 

[BritManToo]

8 minutes ago, Bruce Aussie Chiang Mai said:

I never had problem 100 percent wholemeal flour, probably poor yeast or touching salt. 

We're using bread machines, it's different.

[sharktooth]

10 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

I use the following for 500gm loaf of wholewheat bread in my machine.

1/2 teaspoon salt.

20 gm soy oil

15 gm white sugar (food for the yeast, not for the final bread)

170 ml water

1 & 1/3 cup bread flour

2/3 cup wholewheat flour

1 teaspoon instant dried yeast (fermipan red)

Gives good results every time.

 

Collapsed rise is usually too much liquid in the mix.

More than 1/3 of the flour wholewheat rarely works in a machine.

Thanks I’ll give that a bash. Just double up for 1kg loaf? Would adding seeds affect the rise on this recipe do you think?

[BritManToo]

7 minutes ago, sharktooth said:

Thanks I’ll give that a bash. Just double up for 1kg loaf? Would adding seeds affect the rise on this recipe do you think?

If you add seeds, reduce whole wheat by the same weight (or volume).

I usually use a cup measure, 1 of white bread flour, then the next cup 1/3 to 1/2 white bread flour then just top it off with everything else.

I also tend to use a digital scale with the bread mixing tin on top, after everything has been added I'll top it off to 500gm exactly with extra white bread flour.

 

[sharktooth]

Just now, BritManToo said:

If you add seeds, reduce whole wheat by the same weight.

 

Yeah ok, that makes sense

[marcusarelus]

Have to proof the yeast to make sure it's ok.  Then don't add salt or oil till everything else is mixed.  I use 25% whole wheat flour.  But I don't use a bread machine.  Don't add anything until you get the basic recipe right. 

[KittenKong]

23 minutes ago, sharktooth said:

I’ve never used the delay function. Do you add the instant yeast to the water to get it active first? Is this where I’m maybe going wrong?

That should not be needed. They are correct that in a machine you should put the salt away from the dry yeast, as if the two touch the yeast may die. Once mixed it isnt an issue.

[steve73]

If it rises OK then the yeast is working OK.

 

Causes of collapse are usually:

1.  Insufficient gluten in the flour, so the dough looses elasticity as it starts to cook.  Use a proper strong "Bread" flour (or perhaps a gluten additive).  Too much wholemeal flour (that has low gluten) may also give problem... max 25%.

 

2. Alternatively, too much water makes the dough too soft, and again it will collapse as it starts to cook.  I found the standard recipes that came with my breadmaker had 10-20% too much water... try cutting back a little and see if it help.

 

3.  If it's much too warm during the "proving" (rising) stage it can rise too fast & too much, then I've noticed it will often collapse during cooking.  Breadmakers usually have to warm it a little at this stage; ideally around 25C, but often it's a little too warm in T/L.  Perhaps add a little more sugar to give the yeast extra "food".

 

[BritManToo]

1 hour ago, steve73 said:

3.  If it's much too warm during the "proving" (rising) stage it can rise too fast & too much, then I've noticed it will often collapse during cooking.  Breadmakers usually have to warm it a little at this stage; ideally around 25C, but often it's a little too warm in T/L.  Perhaps add a little more sugar to give the yeast extra "food".

Breadmakers have thermostats, it's always the right temperature for rising.

Falling is nearly always too much water.

[steve73]

13 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Breadmakers have thermostats, it's always the right temperature for rising.

 

Not if the ambient temperature is too high.. it can easily be too "hot" here.

Not everyone has A/C to keep it down.

[billd766]

5 hours ago, BritManToo said:

We're using bread machines, it's different.

My bread machine broke down after about 5 years and I now use a stand mixer and my table top oven. It takes longer but that is due to the 1 hour first and second rises and the 25 minute baking times.

 

It gives me the time to wash up and put things away.

[wgdanson]

12 minutes ago, billd766 said:

My bread machine broke down after about 5 years and I now use a stand mixer and my table top oven. It takes longer but that is due to the 1 hour first and second rises and the 25 minute baking times.

 

It gives me the time to wash up and put things away.

And maybe a small Singha?

[billd766]

16 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

And maybe a small Singha?

Nah. It would be Hong Thong, soda and ice but I try not to start on that until the evening so I generally settle for a Nescafe 3 in 1 coffee.

[wgdanson]

23 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Nah. It would be Hong Thong, soda and ice but I try not to start on that until the evening so I generally settle for a Nescafe 3 in 1 coffee.

Do your baking in the evening then !  A la Keith Floyd with a few slurps now & then. Cheers.

 

Did you read the ingredients in 3 in 1 coffee? Why not just drink sugar and water. LOL

[billd766]

1 hour ago, wgdanson said:

Do your baking in the evening then !  A la Keith Floyd with a few slurps now & then. Cheers.

 

Did you read the ingredients in 3 in 1 coffee? Why not just drink sugar and water. LOL

To do my baking in the evening still takes the same amount of time but would cut into my normal drinking time so I will give it a miss.

 

I have never looked at the ingredients of 3 in 1 coffee. It tastes OK and at 74 I am not too much worried about the things that doctors tell me are bad for me anymore.

 

[ehs818]

I've had the same problem before and have used this recipe in my bread machine for years. Comes out great every time. Since you are in Chiang Mai, be sure to stop into YOK Inter store for ingredients. A great place for all bakers!!

 

Honey Whole Wheat Bread Ingredients:

Cooking Directions:

-------- ------------ -------------------------------- 1 1/8 cups warm water -- (110 degrees) 3 Tbl honey 1/3 Tsp salt 1 cups whole-wheat flour 2 cups bread flour 2 Tbl Olive oil 2 Tbl  Oregano 1 1/2 Tsp active dry yeast 1  Tsp Molasses 1  Tbl Milk Add ingredients according to the manufacturer's directions to your bread machine. Use the wheat bread cycle and light color setting. This recipe yields a 1 pound loaf.

[bprhodes]

Sharktooth,  Which bread maker do you use?  I am looking to by a break maker so I would appreciate any recommendations.  I also live in CM.

[BritManToo]

1 hour ago, bprhodes said:

Sharktooth,  Which bread maker do you use?  I am looking to by a break maker so I would appreciate any recommendations.  I also live in CM.

I was using a Clarte breadmaker (2,000bht Lazada) but the drive belt has just broken for the second time in 6 months, repair is free but takes 2 weeks, gonna bin that one.

Just ordered a Morries breadmaker (4,500bht Lazada) hoping that will be a bit more reliable.

thought about Petrus breadmakers around 3,100-3,500bht usually mislisted as toasters or noodle makers.

 

Nothing much available locally in Chiang Mai.

[joe999]

Have been doing bread with bread makers for many years, as I can recall my bread only collapsed twice, consecutive batches, reason being bad yeast.

 

I always use dry yeast that comes in small glass bottles.

 

My 2 cents to the conversation...

 

Ambient temperature does not influence the success or failure of baking.

 

I've always followed the suggestions that I found online for successful bread making:

- Put all the liquids and salt first

- Flower next

- Make a small hole with your finger on top and put the yeast in

 

I don't use scale to measure, always use a cup for flower and water, and Tbsp/tsp for the other stuff. A bit more or less quantity, in my experience also does not affect the end result.

 

Using only wheat flower, less yeast, otherwise it will overflow. Local white flower is ok, but for much better quality and taste use imported flower, that comes in brown paper bags. Readily available in most supermarkets (not Big C or Tesco)

 

I usually make a 1kg loaf, prefer a more compact and darker bread and use the following:

-2 1/2 cups of wheat

- 2 cups of rye

- 1 plain yogurt

- 350cl water, room temperature

- 1 1/2 tsp salt

- 2 Tsp olive oil

- 1 Tsp honey

- 2 Tsp apple cider vinegar

- 2 Tsp of cocoa

- 2 tsp caraway seeds

 

Finally, after the 40 min it takes to mix and rest, once the machine beeps and starts the next mixing cycle, I pour a cup full of seeds inside (mix of sunflower and flax seeds). By the way, adding seeds never made any difference to the outcome.

 

Once it's done, let it rest for 1 hr, cut a few slices and put on some butter... heaven in your mouth.....

 

 

 

 

 

[joe999]

I got my bread maker from Verasu, brand is Severin

[Andrew Dwyer]

I was using a Clarte breadmaker (2,000bht Lazada) but the drive belt has just broken for the second time in 6 months, repair is free but takes 2 weeks, gonna bin that one.
Just ordered a Morries breadmaker (4,500bht Lazada) hoping that will be a bit more reliable.
thought about Petrus breadmakers around 3,100-3,500bht usually mislisted as toasters or noodle makers.
 
Nothing much available locally in Chiang Mai.

Was looking at the Morries this morning, not a bread maker myself but this thread is converting me, be interested in your opinion of the Morries .

[sharktooth]

3 hours ago, ehs818 said:

I've had the same problem before and have used this recipe in my bread machine for years. Comes out great every time. Since you are in Chiang Mai, be sure to stop into YOK Inter store for ingredients. A great place for all bakers!!

 

Honey Whole Wheat Bread Ingredients:

Cooking Directions:

 

-------- ------------ -------------------------------- 1 1/8 cups warm water -- (110 degrees) 3 Tbl honey 1/3 Tsp salt 1 cups whole-wheat flour 2 cups bread flour 2 Tbl Olive oil 2 Tbl  Oregano   1 1/2 Tsp active dry yeast 1  Tsp Molasses   1  Tbl Milk   Add ingredients according to the manufacturer's directions to your bread machine. Use the wheat bread cycle and light color setting. This recipe yields a 1 pound loaf.

Yeah I’ve been to Yok twice now and only buying and using the good stuff. Will take a run down to Bakers Mart later as well.

[sharktooth]

2 hours ago, bprhodes said:

Sharktooth,  Which bread maker do you use?  I am looking to by a break maker so I would appreciate any recommendations.  I also live in CM.

I bought the HomeMate bread maker from Lazada for 5,950. I think Yok wanted 6,900 for it.