Home Bread Making

[KittenKong]

1 hour ago, joe999 said:

Have been doing bread with bread makers for many years, as I can recall my bread only collapsed twice, consecutive batches, reason being bad yeast.

I always use dry yeast that comes in small glass bottles.

I buy yeast in 500g packets from Makro for about 100B. I split the 500g into two equal small Tupperware containers. I freeze one and keep the other in the fridge, using as needed. Then when the first is used up I get the frozen one out and use it from the fridge in the same way.

I have never had a yeast problem and the last spoonful works as well as the first. Maybe I've just been lucky.

[KittenKong]

19 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Breadmakers have thermostats, it's always the right temperature for rising.

Falling is nearly always too much water.

If the OP did a test bake using only white bread flour, water, yeast and salt then he would find out pretty quickly whether there is a thermostat fault or not, and also whether his basic recipe is sound.

Having done that test successfully he can move on to varying the recipe and adding "extras", ideally in stages with in-between tests.

[hugocnx]

21 hours ago, steve73 said:

If it rises OK then the yeast is working OK.

 

Causes of collapse are usually:

1.  Insufficient gluten in the flour, so the dough looses elasticity as it starts to cook.  Use a proper strong "Bread" flour (or perhaps a gluten additive).  Too much wholemeal flour (that has low gluten) may also give problem... max 25%.

 

2. Alternatively, too much water makes the dough too soft, and again it will collapse as it starts to cook.  I found the standard recipes that came with my breadmaker had 10-20% too much water... try cutting back a little and see if it help.

 

3.  If it's much too warm during the "proving" (rising) stage it can rise too fast & too much, then I've noticed it will often collapse during cooking.  Breadmakers usually have to warm it a little at this stage; ideally around 25C, but often it's a little too warm in T/L.  Perhaps add a little more sugar to give the yeast extra "food".

 

I think you are right there in OP's case at point 3. Ambient temperature in Thailand is way to high to use lukewarm water. Technically the dough should be around 25 C after kneading. 

Considering the warming up during kneading you'd have to use really cold water in the recipe.

[Pdavies99]

21 hours ago, KittenKong said:

That should not be needed. They are correct that in a machine you should put the salt away from the dry yeast, as if the two touch the yeast may die. Once mixed it isnt an issue.

Correct!   Adding ingredients into bread maker should be:

First the yeast

Then the flour

Then the sugar, oil, salt and water.

 

Keep opened yeast packs tightly sealed in refrigerator, don't buy the large packs of yeast. (Look at sell by date, it can easily go off)

 

1/2 teaspoonful of sugar is not enough, especially for a 500gm loaf

I would suggest : one teaspoonful of yeast, same amount for salt and sugar.  Only a small amount of oil, 2-3 tablespoonfuls.

And 300 - 325 mls of water.

 

Works perfectly every time!

[ronaldo0]

Make sure you use bottled room temp water . I made bread before in the Uk in breadmakers and wondered why it wouldn't rise at times. Was told was the water I was using from tap so I used bottled water and problem solved.

[BritManToo]

31 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

If the OP did a test bake using only white bread flour, water, yeast and salt then he would find out pretty quickly whether there is a thermostat fault or not, and also whether his basic recipe is sound.

Having done that test successfully he can move on to varying the recipe and adding "extras", ideally in stages with in-between tests.

The recipes that come with breadmakers are always too wet and tend to fall.

Don't know why, maybe they use a different flour to everyone else.

And they always want you to use milk and eggs, who puts milk and eggs in their bread?

[KittenKong]

21 minutes ago, hugocnx said:

I think you are right there in OP's case at point 3. Ambient temperature in Thailand is way to high to use lukewarm water. Technically the dough should be around 25 C after kneading. 

Considering the warming up during kneading you'd have to use really cold water in the recipe.

I always heat up the water I use in the microwave for 15 seconds before adding the yeast. It has never been a problem.

[BritManToo]

54 minutes ago, sharktooth said:

I bought the HomeMate bread maker from Lazada for 5,950. I think Yok wanted 6,900 for it.

Verasu want 4,300 for the same machine.

https://www.verasu.com/product-detail/130/เครื่องทำขนมปังอัตโนมัติ

I looked at that one too, really they all are much of a muchness.

If my 2,000bht machine didn't break so often I would have stuck with it.

[BritManToo]

40 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

I buy yeast in 500g packets from Makro for about 100B. I split the 500g into two equal small Tupperware containers. I freeze one and keep the other in the fridge, using as needed. Then when the first is used up I get the frozen one out and use it from the fridge in the same way.

I have never had a yeast problem and the last spoonful works as well as the first. Maybe I've just been lucky.

Metoo, but Fermipan red from YoK in 500gm packets.

I just leave mine in an airtight plastic container, no need to freeze or refrigerate, it just needs to be kept dry.

125-150 loaves from 1 pack.

[KittenKong]

4 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

The recipes that come with breadmakers are always too wet and tend to fall.

Don't know why, maybe they use a different flour to everyone else.

And they always want you to use milk and eggs, who puts milk and eggs in their bread?

I had a breadmaker in Europe and the recipes that came with that all worked and didnt have too much water in. They didnt have milk and eggs in either.

 

[hugocnx]

3 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

I always heat up the water I use in the microwave for 15 seconds before adding the yeast. It has never been a problem.

You have a different style of bread making as you wrote in your first post.

No kneading of the dough and a high percentage of dry yeast. So along with warm water I think that's the reason your dough rises well.

But OP is kneading the dough and it might over rise and collapse.

[hugocnx]

5 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Metoo, but Fermipan red from YoK in 500gm packets.

I just leave mine in an airtight plastic container, no need to freeze or refrigerate, it just needs to be kept dry.

125-150 loaves from 1 pack.

Fermipan red is actually meant for (extra) sweet bread recipe like raisin bread. Sounds strange, but standard yeast cannot handle to much sugar. This according to Fermipan Co.

I don't know if the blue Fermipan is cheaper, but it works even as good.

[KittenKong]

1 minute ago, hugocnx said:

You have a different style of bread making as you wrote in your first post.

No kneading of the dough and a high percentage of dry yeast. So along with warm water I think that's the reason your dough rises well.

But OP is kneading the dough and it might over rise and collapse.

That's possible, though the amount of yeast I use was taken from a regular recipe that called for 20 minutes kneading.

Using warm water just seems to speed it all up a little bit, but putting the bowl outside in the sun for the rising stage has the same effect. I do normally leave the dough indoors for the rising stages, where the temperature is a constant 27 degrees.

[hugocnx]

9 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

That's possible, though the amount of yeast I use was taken from a regular recipe that called for 20 minutes kneading.

Using warm water just seems to speed it all up a little bit, but putting the bowl outside in the sun for the rising stage has the same effect. I do normally leave the dough indoors for the rising stages, where the temperature is a constant 27 degrees.

Is that 20 minutes hand kneading or machine kneading? Check out the website of weekend bakery; loads of good info. Yeast percentage (of flour of course) is generally about 1.5%. Yours is 2.5%. What are we talking about.

If allowed https://www.weekendbakery.com/. Not personally connected.

[BritManToo]

8 minutes ago, hugocnx said:

Is that 20 minutes hand kneading or machine kneading? Check out the website of weekend bakery; loads of good info. Yeast percentage (of flour of course) is generally about 1.5%. Yours is 2.5%. What are we talking about.

If allowed https://www.weekendbakery.com/. Not personally connected.

It's completely different rules for hand baking and machine baking.

The machine controls temperature and humidity and forces a 'quick rise', kneading is far stronger, it's really designed for white bread flour only.

OP is using a machine, all advice & recipes from hand bakers are totally irrelevant. 

[hugocnx]

1 minute ago, BritManToo said:

It's completely different rules for hand baking and machine baking.

The machine controls temperature and humidity and forces a 'quick rise', it's really designed for white bread flour only.

The machine controls humidity? So it may add some water by itself when the dough is to dry?

[KittenKong]

2 minutes ago, hugocnx said:

Fermipan red is actually meant for (extra) sweet bread recipe like raisin bread. Sounds strange, but standard yeast cannot handle to much sugar. This according to Fermipan Co.

I don't know if the blue Fermipan is cheaper, but it works even as good.

As far as I know the red sort is for lean dough, or sugared up to about 10%. The brown sort is for dough with sugar up to about 18%.  The price of both is about the same as far as I know. I dont remember ever seeing a blue sort.
 

 

 

[KittenKong]

12 minutes ago, hugocnx said:

Is that 20 minutes hand kneading or machine kneading?

Hand kneading.

[hugocnx]

1 minute ago, KittenKong said:

As far as I know the red sort is for lean dough, or sugared up to about 10%. The brown sort is for dough with sugar up to about 18%.  The price of both is about the same as far as I know. I dont remember ever seeing a blue sort.
 

 

 

Yes, you are right. Sorry all, my bad; was mixing Fermipan up with Bruggeman.

[ezzra]

Pity you have bought the machine already.. here is the most easy fantastic no knead bread that will knock your socks off, just mix the ingredients and let it rise and bake... Easy peasy...

 

 

[hugocnx]

2 minutes ago, ezzra said:

Pity you have bought the machine already.. here is the most easy fantastic no knead bread that will knock your socks off, just mix the ingredients and let it rise and bake... Easy peasy...

 

 

Nice loaf!

[KittenKong]

22 minutes ago, ezzra said:

Pity you have bought the machine already.. here is the most easy fantastic no knead bread that will knock your socks off, just mix the ingredients and let it rise and bake... Easy peasy... 

I've done bread like that myself. The trick is the Dutch Oven effect which keeps the humidity up in the container.

 

Yes, the technique does make nice bread. Shame the video uses those ridiculous US measurements: cups, spoons, jiggers, etc. Why cant they just measure by weight like everyone else? So easy, no need for interpretation and impossible to get wrong.

[sharktooth]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

Verasu want 4,300 for the same machine.

https://www.verasu.com/product-detail/130/เครื่องทำขนมปังอัตโนมัติ

I looked at that one too, really they all are much of a muchness.

If my 2,000bht machine didn't break so often I would have stuck with it.

Never been much of bargain hunter :)

[BritManToo]

6 minutes ago, sharktooth said:

Never been much of bargain hunter ????

Yeah, my 2,000bht machine wasn't much of a bargain.

[Psimbo]

I do 50g of granary flour, 400g of bread flour. Can't comment on breadmakers as I do all by hand. Humidity may affect things here. I combine the sugar and yeast with water and let it work for about half an hour before adding it to the rest of the ingredients. The longer the salt and yeast are away from each other the better as the salt slows down the yeast's processes.

 

 

My recipe"

400g bread flour

50g Granary flour

2 tsp yeast

1 tsp sugar

1 1/2 tsp salt

3 TBSP Oilve Oil

 

300ml room temperature water

handful of oregano (works with sweet and savory things for sandwiches and toast)

 

[sharktooth]

16 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Yeah, my 2,000bht machine wasn't much of a bargain.

After a few glasses of wine and with Lazada app opened on the iPad, its carnage to my debit card!!!

[rutteketuut]

In november 2017 I bought a breadmaker on Lazada for 2100 baht ( brand Flezie). It does the job, you don't need an expensive one. I put the liquids first, then salt, an egg, the flour and the yeast. If you don't use your machine much keep the yeast in your fridge or freezer. If your bread collapses try to put some more oil, I put 50 grams of oil for an 800 gr. loaf. I use a kitchen scale and follow the instructions in the book except I put more oil.

Good luck.

[RocketDog]

On 1/2/2019 at 1:41 PM, marcusarelus said:

Have to proof the yeast to make sure it's ok.  Then don't add salt or oil till everything else is mixed.  I use 25% whole wheat flour.  But I don't use a bread machine.  Don't add anything until you get the basic recipe right. 

The multiple responses agree with my experience. If you don't use a majority of white (not 'cake') white flour the bread just doesn't rise enough. 

 

As an engineer I suggest you take variables out of the experiment. Use your normal recipe but use all white flour. See the result and iterate from there changing or eliminating one thing at a time. 

 

Time consuming I know but at least you can nearly always 'stomach ' the results. 

 

Also it might help to use a digital scale on all ingredients and keep records until you get what you want. Then it's easier to get what you like everytime. 

 

But don't get too serious since it should also be fun. 

 

I don't use a machine and enjoy the kneading by hand. I've read that both salt and sugar (though counterintuitive) can retard yeast growth. I found that only a pinch of sugar is all the yeast needs. Oils and grains definitely affect the rise, as others have noted. 

 

Experiment and enjoy! There's nothing like homemade bread slathered with butter right out of the oven. 

[Toosetinmyways]

Yesterday for the first time ever both batches of dough failed to rise. Hand made not machine. Strange thing is one is sourdough starter and the other instant yeast. Surfing the web best answer was water quaility likely high chlorine. I use water filters but perhaps they still pass chlorines

[madmen]

Pity you have bought the machine already.. here is the most easy fantastic no knead bread that will knock your socks off, just mix the ingredients and let it rise and bake... Easy peasy...
 
 

Looks like a lot of work when watching the vid. I would fail. I can never get the same results as those easy you tube vids