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BANGKOK 21 January 2019 01:01

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Some 15 years ago, I (well my wife) purchased a plot of land. The original piece of land had been divided into quarters. We bought two of the quarters, and built our house on this. A third quarter was sold, and a neighbour built a house. The final quarter was sold to a lady four years ago. She has a western husband but he does not live here, in fact I have never met him.

 

Because the land was beingdivided, we were told that the deeds would be produced after the process was completed - they are apparently due in June/July.

 

Today, the purchaser of the last plot, appeared and claimed that she was also the owner of one of our two plots - fortunately not the one on which our house is, but the one which forms about one rai in front of our house. She claims that the plot was sold to her four years ago.

 

It is strange that it has taken her four years to realise that we own the land, not the person who "sold" it to her. I cannot get to the bottom of her story but it seems that the original vendor has sold the land twice. Amazingly neither she (the purchaser) nor her ephemeral husband checked the land before  stumping up the cash. Fifteen years ago, when I bought it, mywife and I certainly did. We have a bill of sale (witnessed) confirming we bought the land. 

 

She wishes to clear the land and plant coffee (!). I told her it wasn't hers. The couple of goons she brought with her huffed and puffed, but backed down when I said I would  involve the police if they started cutting down trees etc.

 

Anyone any ideas - if necessary I would be prepared to let her take the matter to court - there is presumably some court or arbitration process?

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Posted (edited)

The obvious question: Do you have a chanote or a Nor-Saw-Sam?

A bill of sale is not much use - as my wife's parent's discovered forty years after they meticulously held onto their receipt.

 

edit: Sorry, I see you say it is due this year - that's fifteen years after you bought it?

 

Edited by bluesofa
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Regardless of sub division surely there would be chanote

 

i would have been very nervous for 15 years and even more so now!

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, bluesofa said:

The obvious question: Do you have a chanote or a Nor-Saw-Sam?

A bill of sale is not much use - as my wife's parent's discovered forty years after they meticulously held onto their receipt.

 

edit: Sorry, I see you say it is due this year - that's fifteen years after you bought it?

 

Yes apparently because the land was being split up, the new chanoots were to be drawn up when the process was completed. 

 

So no we don't have a chanoots, but neither does the woman who claims the land was sold to her, or the neighbour who bought the third  plot. That is why I suspect (hope) it will be a matter for the courts.

 

Interestingly, when she turned up, the two goons who came with her were bawling my wife's name (Noi) outside the house and n a distinctly threatening manner. The woman and her goons were rather surprised to see me. It was pure luck that I was at home - in fact the first thing she said was " Oh, you don't go to school today?"

 

That alone makes me smell a rat.

Edited by JAG
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7 minutes ago, JAG said:

I have done some further investigating. My wife has a document, issued to her, with her name on it, by the Land Office, confirming that she has purchased Two Rai of the plot.

 

Also, my wife tells me, the original vendor approached her this afternoon and demanded that she (my wife) returns one of our two Rai for the price we paid 15 years ago. Noi said no.

Looks like all's well that ends well - apart from attempted intimidation.

Does your document look like this, it's a chanote, on cream coloured 'parchment' (the latest one after the Nor-Saw-Sam), gradually these  are being issued nationwide - well that's the Land Department's plan anyway:

 

image.png.a2ae86ed3f94ad7243279f739d68a655.png

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Normally the subdivision takes 3 till 6 months, then a new chanote is issued. How the hell did it take 15 years? It doesn't make any sense... If i was you i would hire a real estate lawyer to make a due diligence on the whole chanote history asap.

Birth defects i a chanote can make your ownership invalid even if it's not your fault.

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk

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Sounds like it's sorted, good.

 

To be honest I would be a little concerned that the 'coffee plants' lady might try it again.

 

So, just wondering if there is a process to get something like a court interpretation order or a document from the local land titles officer chief which would even confirm or 'enhance' your ownership proof.

 

Obviously not free but perhaps worthwhile looking at, but your choice of course.

 

When my Thai son was interested in buying 2 plots of land and house in a nice new moo baan here in Chiang Mai he asked his buddy, a lawyer, to check the chanut carefully (at that stage the many chanuts were in various private names, not in the name of the actual development company).

 

Son's lawyer buddy had a first look at the chanuts for the double plot my son was interested in and discovered it was not the latest chanut, it had in fact been sold to someone else (and not the development company). Son's lawyer then decided to search back regarding the five previous owners of the two plots to ensure nothing tricky, wrong etc., in the various ownership transfers. All was in order.

 

Then my son and his lawyer buddy contacted the actual current owner, who didn't even know the development company had a potential buyer. But quickly the actual owner indicated, in writing and witnessed he did want to sell.

 

Son's lawyer then went, with my son, with an appointment to meet the local land titles office chief to ask him to confirm who the owner was and whether there were any possible complications in transferring ownership of the the land to my son. LTO senior did some checking then said 'all OK'.

 

End of the 'process' son's lawyer asked the actual owner to personally come to the land title office, with my son and with the legal representative of the development company and all witness the transfer. All completed. 

 

Note: Son's lawyer had mentioned he didn't really trust the majority of development companies and was not happy with the idea of the development company lawyer coming to the actual transfer event with a supposed power of attorney signed by the actual owner.  

 

Later my son made a will using another lawyer who is a family friend. Son wanted to bequeath the two land plots and house jointly to his 3 daughters, the will lawyer said; 'step 1, let me confirm that the chanut is totally in order before mentioning it is son's will. My son asked why? His lawyer friend laughed and said 'too many fake / wrong / never updated chanuts in LOS'.

 

Bottom line - Twice trusted lawyers pushed for chanuts to be checked carefully before any further action.

 

 

Edited by scorecard
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21 minutes ago, JAG said:

This notwithstanding me showing him a copy of the bill of sale, for two rai, signed by the vendor. He says that he believes the vendors claim that she only sold one rai.

 

I notice that in your latest post there is no mention anymore about the document the land office has issued, which you mentioned in your earlier posts, only the bill of sales.

 

Is

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