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alexanderhu

Thai Elite visa tax issues

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6 hours ago, Firefan said:

There are a couple of issues here; first of all, the original intention of the (lifetime) Thai Elite visa, was for rich tourists (golfers Etc.) to easy come and go in and out of Thailand - it was NOT (originally at least) intended for long stays - and I believe that one even had to leave the country (not just do 90 day reports) every 3 months. Therefore a work permit can not be connected still today - as many of the legalities behind establishing the visa have NOT been changed. 

 

A tax ID is possible on other long term/non work related visas(extensions). I know several retirees getting tax refunds on their Thai dividend and interest income using that, only reason I see for it NOT being possible on the Thai Elite is what I mentioned above; the Thai Elite is STILL(the laws behind it) considered a (fancy) "tourist visa" - and I do not think one can get a tax ID on a tourist visa.

 

Also; if day trading ones own account/money is considered work, when is my (own) money management NOT considered work? When I check my pension account quarterly?, when I sell some stocks monthly/annually to rebalance my portfolio? When my Thai or foreign time deposit expire and I research and buy into a new time deposit? When I sell a stock, I no longer like? None of those are work. I simply manage my private money (even if trade more often).

 

Finally; it is true that foreign banks/institutions are now asking for for foreign tax ID numbers. FACTA and other new rules require them to ask for it, and yes; they can decide to close or limit functionalities until it is supplied.

 

Cheers! 

 

  

i have the original one like most visas, marriage,retirement and elite that allow to stay as stated as virtual long term tourists. The original never changed ftom extending every 90 days but the newer ones have up to 12 month extensions. If you wish to work etc or set up a company you have to cancel the elite visa and obtain the work permit visa process but keep in the programme in case you want to quit work/company and go back to being a long term tourist.

 

This is the point the op is blatantly misquoting the elite visa to be some work permit/permanent residence visa and pay taxes etc. If i did this on a retirement/marriage thread the whole thread would vanish as i am proposing something highly illegal. Why the hell this visa is allowed to be trashed in this way is disgusting when we know full well authorities check this site. 

 

 

Edited by humbug

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11 minutes ago, ukrules said:

A wum ? What is a wum ?

haha wind up merchant

 

 

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13 minutes ago, humbug said:

haha wind up merchant

 

 

After google searching I was leaning to 'WhatsUpMoms' on youtube.

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the aeoi does not demand a tax id from countries that does not automatically distribute them i.e. Thailand. If you tell the bank this they will not ask anymore for a tax id. Worked for me with several german banks.

Edited by stat
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18 hours ago, alexanderhu said:

I'm not from the US. Whether it's taxable or not is one question but whether is a Thai Elite member who is living in the country full time is a tax resident or not is another one. If yes then he or she should be able to obtain a tax id. If such person can't obtain a tax id then he or she must maintain a home elsewhere where you can obtain a tax id otherwise it's impossible to open and maintain bank accounts since all banks wants to know the customer's tax residency.

ur tax id is the number on the pink id card ...if u want you can pay taxes with the help of this number..it is also recocnized oversee as a thai tax number...but if they dont want your money you better spend it yourselves... plenty of beautifull mistresses everywhere who would be more than happy to "tax" you...

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I see, well I think the same and I should be able to obtain a tax id on a Thai Elite visa considering the fact that I become a tax resident once I spend 180 days in a tax year in the country. By the way, Thailand is now a part of the AEOI club and they're going to exchange banking and other related financial information with other countries so if you reside in Thailand and you wanna open a bank account in Singapore then you're gonna need a local tax id, a solid proof of address and a residence permit (in this case the Thai Elite visa). So, I think the same and trading income is taxable on the arising basis, i.e. when you make a profit regardless of where your accounts are located. I will try to obtain a tax id and I will talk with other tax advisors and accountants although I already talked with more than 10, literally.

 

Firefan, trading on capital markets is considered as gainful activity and the proceedings are usually taxable on the arising basis even in countries where foreign sourced income is not taxable or where there is a remittance basis taxation. It is because if you buy stocks, bonds or other assets that you own on your overseas accounts then you invest your money by converting your money into various movable and transferable assets. At the time of sale, you realize your usually long term capital gains and that's it. However, there are countries which says that no mater what you trade, if you're trading actively, i.e. on average you close your positions within 6 months, you're using leverage, you're using sophisticated techniques to bet on the price movements, then even if you buy stocks or bonds, you may be taxed regularly. Here in the EU usually if you trade then you pay income tax but if you invest then you pay capital gains tax and the latter tends to be lower in most cases, however there are countries where both types gets taxed at the same rates due to the flat rate income tax system. On the other hand, if you trade derivatives, i.e. Forex, CFDs, futures or options on various financial products, then you're not buying any asset or anything transferable. You simply open a position with that broker to basically bet on a price movement. You can't transfer your Fx or CFD positions to another broker because you don't own any asset that you could transfer. It's merely a contract between you and the broker based on which the brokerage company is obligated to credit or debit the results on your account at the time you close your position.

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2 hours ago, alexanderhu said:

In my opinion it's not that simple.

you have opinions, i have experience... detailed experience. if you want to make your life difficult you have my blessing. by the way... both my wife and my[not so]humble self are EU citizens of a country who's taxman has very sharp teeth.

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If they haven't asked you for tax and your income is generated abroad then the only caveat is don't bring it here in the same tax year as you earned it 

 

Also  selling your stocks in another country or even buying more is not depriving any Thai person of a job so hardly any business of anyone but yourself, opening a company and employing 4 Thais to watch you press buttons on your laptop would be laughable tho... 😀 

 

If you have too much profits why not donate it to an orphanage or other worthwhile cause? ....there are plenty of people in need out there! 

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, alexanderhu said:

The applicant tells the tax authorities that he or she is going to become a non resident on this and that date. I don't know how it is where you are from but here in the EU usually when you file the paperwork to become a non resident for tax purposes, then you have to file a final tax return and pay your taxes by the date you file your last and final return. Then the applicant moves to Thailand with the Thai Elite visa...

So, the reason for you wanting a tax ID from Thailand is that you want to sever your tax liability ties to the EU, correct? But, then you want to keep your existing accounts outside of Thailand open for trading purposes. Then, you may be on the honor system to report any gains or income to Thai tax man because your accounts were already existing from outside Thailand. Why are you wanting to sever ties with the EU.... Is it the high tax rates?

Edited by BertM

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3 hours ago, humbug said:

this thread is misnamed and should not have a visa which is not a permanent resident or work permit attached. Many times we see threads vanish when fools say how do i work on visa on arrival without anyone knowing blah blah This is another blatant attempt to wum. The op seems to want to trash this visa when all he had to do is set up a company in thailand then gain a work permit and pay his taxes. He knows this its just a complete wum. 

yep! setting up a company would be the right thing to do, assuming... he's dumb enough to follow your advice. :tongue:

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10 hours ago, Krupps said:

That is a real problem for dividend income investors, without Tax ID 

the withholding rate is a whopping 30%, the treaty rate is only 10%, if I remember correctly.

Treaty rate is 15%. There is no problem getting the treaty rate from sensible US brokers (e.g. Interactive Brokers, Schwab) without a tax ID.

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1 hour ago, alexanderhu said:

you wanna open a bank account in Singapore then you're gonna need a local tax id

what part of my comment

 

Quote

if you need a tax ID for banking purposes: some banks (offshore of course) in certain juridictions are stubbornly demanding a tax ID for the beneficary even though CRS (Common Reporting Standard) allows establishing a "tax residence" by simple declaration. most banks in Singapore and Hong Kong are aware of the Thai income tax practice not taxing offshore proceeds if not bla-bla same year...

is it you don't understand? :huh:

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4 minutes ago, moana said:
10 hours ago, Krupps said:

That is a real problem for dividend income investors, without Tax ID 

the withholding rate is a whopping 30%, the treaty rate is only 10%, if I remember correctly.

Treaty rate is 15%. There is no problem getting the treaty rate from sensible US brokers (e.g. Interactive Brokers, Schwab) without a tax ID.

W8-Ben is all you need.

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BertM, Ks45672: I would like to stay legal and fully compliant. Indeed, I can't use my former tax id since I'm no longer a tax resident and I need a local one from Thailand. However, it has nothing to do with not paying taxes. In fact, I'm the one wanting to pay if I have to pay and truth to be told it's still not clear to me whether my trading income is taxable in Thailand or not. In other words, I cut all my ties with my country of citizenship not for tax reasons but for monetary reasons, i.e. I did not want to maintain a home in my home country considering I ain't gonna go back there anytime soon so I simply told the tax man that I leave permanently, I ticked the right boxes, paid the taxes on my final tax return and I left. Now I'm gonna need a tax id in Thailand because I assume that my trading income is fully taxable in Thailand for two reasons: 1) I trade actively, on a daily basis, and these are speculative short term positions; 2) I trade derivatives only so I do not own any assets when I'm in a position. Consequently based on the Thai income tax act that I found online on the tax authority's website, I believe that my trading activities would be categorized as doing business in Thailand and thus subject to income tax like any other locally sourced income.

 

Again, I'm not a US but an EU citizen and my bank and brokerage accounts are located in the EU not in the US.

Edited by alexanderhu

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