U.S. embassy income letter redux -- officializing social security benefits documents

[Suradit69]

7 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

the normal need for an apostle of the document.

I think the word we're aiming for is Apostille.

The US Embassy in Bangkok had the link I provided above to the State Dept rules because those are the rules they must follow.

 

But there is the caveat that some services are only available in the US:

 

• Quote

  Authentication, certification, or certified copies of public documents issued in the United States such as birth, residency, marriage, divorce, and death certificates; commercial records, driver’s license, and other credentials. Such documents must be authenticated in the United States for use overseas; for additional details, please visit the Department of State’s Notarial and Authentication Services or the Office of Authentication, or call 1-800-688-9889.Please visit the National Center for Health Statistics webpage Where to Write for Vital Records for state specific information on how to request copies of vital records.

   

 

Edited January 11, 2019 by Suradit69

[Thaidream]

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

his thread is ONLY about the questions about any potential chances of U.S. nationals meeting the conditions above doing the same thing at their embassy as in Colombia and Peru, and having that accepted at Thai immigration. 

Frankly, I have been thinking about this issue for some time- and  I have to believe that what Columbia and Peru do is accept an Affidavit- in which the applicant states their income and source- the US Embassy signs not as an attestation of being certified but as a notary- gives the Oath and this make the applicant subject to a penalty of perjury if lying.  The exact same thing the US Embassy in Bangkok does. 

IMHO- the difference in Columbia/Peru is that their Immigration accepts the Letter from Social Security or the US Military/Veterans Administration as adequate proof that the person is telling the truth- these letters have the official heading and provide details as to amount.  If you remember the interview with the US Consular General- he indicated he and his team were going around showing various proofs of income letters to the Thai Immigration Offices in the hopes they would be accepted.

 

At the end of December- I was in the US Embassy Bangkok for my letter and I asked the question -Prior to my next extension can I use the Embassy general affidavit to state my income and will you (the Embassy Official) sign it.  Her answer was- bring the letter and show me the wording and I will decide if I can sign it.  No comment on whether Thai Immigration would accept it.

I do believe the door is slightly ajar- that a person can use the Affidavit- NOT an income letter and write in information. However, to get Thai Imm to accept it may mean the US Embassy hasa to explain this to Thai Imm.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, Suradit69 said:

I think the word we're aiming for is Apostille.

The US Embassy in Bangkok had the link I provided above to the State Dept rules because those are the rules they must follow.

 

Thanks for the correction but I still don't really see the relevance to the narrow focus I've presented here.

Peru and Colombia are heavily into Apostilles, yet they make an exception for social security benefit letters that are "verified" by the U.S. embassy without any apostille. 

[BertM]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Thanks for the correction but I still don't really see the relevance to the narrow focus I've presented here.

Peru and Colombia are heavily into Apostilles, yet they make an exception for social security benefit letters that are "verified" by the U.S. embassy without any apostille. 

Ok, so with the average SS being $1,700 per month or less, then this idea if ever adopted and accepted will NOT help most people who are on the retirement extensions. Not everyone is married here from the US and not everyone gets $2,000 plus per month. Then, what about those on private pensions, this idea doesn't help them at all either.

[Thaidream]

Just checked the US Embassy- Bogota Columbia-

 

f you need proof that you are receiving Social Security, Veteran, Federal or any private pension benefits, you can request a benefits verification letter (certification). This letter is sometimes called a “budget letter,” a “benefits letter,” a “proof of income letter,” or a “proof of award letter”. This letter is usually required to renew your Colombian retiree visa.

To request an income verification (certification) letter at the U.S. Embassy in Bogota or U.S. Consular Agency in Barranquilla, you need to request an appointment.

 

Much to my surprise their web site uses the term certification-

which now leaves the question why can't we simply write in our info- state our income and source- have the Embassy sign it and off to Thai Imm?

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Frankly, I have been thinking about this issue for some time- and  I have to believe that what Columbia and Peru do is accept an Affidavit- in which the applicant states their income and source- the US Embassy signs not as an attestation of being certified but as a notary- gives the Oath and this make the applicant subject to a penalty of perjury if lying.  The exact same thing the US Embassy in Bangkok does. 

IMHO- the difference in Columbia/Peru is that their Immigration accepts the Letter from Social Security or the US Military/Veterans Administration as adequate proof that the person is telling the truth- these letters have the official heading and provide details as to amount.  If you remember the interview with the US Consular General- he indicated he and his team were going around showing various proofs of income letters to the Thai Immigration Offices in the hopes they would be accepted.

 

At the end of December- I was in the US Embassy Bangkok for my letter and I asked the question -Prior to my next extension can I use the Embassy general affidavit to state my income and will you (the Embassy Official) sign it.  Her answer was- bring the letter and show me the wording and I will decide if I can sign it.  No comment on whether Thai Immigration would accept it.

I do believe the door is slightly ajar- that a person can use the Affidavit- NOT an income letter and write in information. However, to get Thai Imm to accept it may mean the US Embassy hasa to explain this to Thai Imm.

Wow.

So what is the name of the "income letters" the U.S. embassy was providing?

Were they not also affidavits?

If not, what was the technical name of service.

Certainly U.S. embassies don't issue "income letters" literally. That's a generic term, yes?

This is why I was asking for feedback for people with more knowledge than me about what the U.S. embassy does or doesn't do.

In my case I have never done an "income letter" but I was planning on doing my first this year, but then they killed the service.

Colombia and Peru are requiring PENSIONS only for retirement status so the documents that Americans seeking retirement status there happen to always be social security benefits letters.

You're suggesting this might work for other kinds of income documents, in theory.

Rereading your post it sounds like you're saying if the Colombia and Peru embassies are issuing the affadavits based on believing the expats presentation of the benefits letters, then that is something the U.S. embassy here probably will never do, because they've made it clear they want nothing to do with verifying income.

But wasn't one of their arguments was that they are not legally allowed to verify income based on international State Department rules?!?

If that was really true and the embassies in Peru and Colombia are doing as you say, isn't that a lie?

Keep the information coming. Thanks. 

 

[Jingthing]

Just now, BertM said:

Ok, so with the average SS being $1,700 per month or less, then this idea if ever adopted and accepted will NOT help most people who are on the retirement extensions. Not everyone is married here from the US and not everyone gets $2,000 plus per month. Then, what about those on private pensions, this idea doesn't help them at all either.

There is the combination method that they can use then, and many have been doing,

Again this isn't about people on private pensions.

How many times do I need to explain this is LIMITED SCOPE topic?

[Suradit69]

11 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Peru and Colombia are heavily into Apostilles

And they mention that for countries who don't deal with Apostillies,

 

Quote

 

Authentication certificates are issued by the U.S. Department of State for the same purpose as Apostilles but for use in countries that are not members to the 1961 Hague Convention Treaty.

For more information, please see Authentication Certification Requirements and Requesting Authentication Services and Fees

 

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/internl-judicial-asst/authentications-and-apostilles/office-of-authentications.html

 

But whether that would be something that the US embassy in Bangkok would do remains debatable.

 

Possibly you need to email the question to the Citizen Services section of the embassy in Bangkok. Make it as specific as you can or you'll get a generic answer.

 

Also the embassy is at least partially affected by the shut down. At the top of the page they say updates to their website will be limited until the shutdown is resolved. Who knows what else may be affected.

 

 

 

Edited January 11, 2019 by Suradit69

[BertM]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

There is the combination method that they can use then, and many have been doing,

Again this isn't about people on private pensions.

How many times do I need to explain this is LIMITED SCOPE topic?

You can't limit the scope of discussion on this forum.

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, Suradit69 said:

And they mention that for countries who don't deal with Apostillies,

 

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/internl-judicial-asst/authentications-and-apostilles/office-of-authentications.html

 

But whether that would be something that the US embassy in Bangkok would do remains debatable.

 

Possibly you need to email the question to the Citizen Services section of the embassy in Bangkok. Make it as specific as you can or you'll get a generic answer.

 

Also the embassy is at least partially effected by the shut down. At the top of the page they say updates to their website will be limited until the shutdown is resolved. Who knows what else may be effected.

I am not getting where you're coming from. The U.S. embassies in Colombia and Peru are doing something that is accepted around the social security benefits letters without dealing directly with the state department. I'm only asking why can't the U.S. embassy here do the same as the first step, and then if so, will Thai immigration accept for the second.

 

My problem here even though I am fully certain the embassies in Colombia and Peru are providing this service and I'm sure it is not an apostille even though both are apostille nations (unless very recently canceled) is that I can't provide any specific details on exactly the technical name for the embassy service that is provided and what the resulting accepted documents look like. 

Edited January 11, 2019 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, BertM said:

You can't limit the scope of discussion on this forum.

Obviously not in your case.

Edited January 11, 2019 by Jingthing

[Suradit69]

14 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

No comment on whether Thai Immigration would accept it.

I do believe the door is slightly ajar- that a person can use the Affidavit- NOT an income letter and write in information. However, to get Thai Imm to accept it may mean the US Embassy hasa to explain this to Thai Imm.

At one point some years ago when I was getting an income verification letter at the embassy someone had used a blank affidavit for that purpose instead of the specific affidavit that the embassy provided.

 

The consular officer said it would not be accepted by Thai immigrations. So, as you say, even if they'd sign off on something, they'd need to ask Thai immigrations to accept it and, given the current stand off between some embassies and TI, that may be a nonstarter. 

[Jingthing]

6 minutes ago, Suradit69 said:

And they mention that for countries who don't deal with Apostillies,

 

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/internl-judicial-asst/authentications-and-apostilles/office-of-authentications.html

 

But whether that would be something that the US embassy in Bangkok would do remains debatable.

 

Possibly you need to email the question to the Citizen Services section of the embassy in Bangkok. Make it as specific as you can or you'll get a generic answer.

 

Also the embassy is at least partially effected by the shut down. At the top of the page they say updates to their website will be limited until the shutdown is resolved. Who knows what else may be effected.

I am in no position to email the embassy for a number of reasons at this point but primarily I wouldn't be able to ask exactly the correct questions because I don't know exactly what the embassies in Colombia and Peru are doing. I would see the only hope as having very specific information using their technical service terms. I don't know those.

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, Suradit69 said:

At one point some years ago when I was getting an income verification letter at the embassy someone had used a blank affidavit for that purpose instead of the specific affidavit that the embassy provided.

 

The consular officer said it would not be accepted by Thai immigrations. So, as you say, even if they'd sign off on something, they'd need to ask Thai immigrations to accept it and, given the current stand off between some embassies and TI, that may be a nonstarter. 

Thanks. That is very good information. Bad news, but good information. 

[Suradit69]

6 minutes ago, BertM said:

You can't limit the scope of discussion on this forum.

He can certainly ask that people stick to the topic stated in the O/P so that there's a chance something useful will come from the discussion.

[Thaidream]

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

f that was really true and the embassies in Peru and Colombia are doing as you say, isn't that a lie?

Keep the information coming. Thanks. 

Columbia is doing it as their website states- I cannot believe that  the US Embassy in Columbia is actually going back directly to Social Security or the  Vets Department- It could be the applicant shows their 'Award' Letter to the Embassy- then fills out the General Affidavit- states their income- takes the Oath- and it is signed. Columbia Immigration accepts it/

 

The missing info is what did Thai Immigration really ask the Embassies to do-at the May 2018 meeting and why have only 4 Embassies stopped their letters.  It may be that the term 'certification' scared the 4 Embassies because there is no true certification unless the actual source of the income provides that.  I believe the Us Embassy Bangkok took the easy road based upon input from the BE. Neither truly- IMo- wanted to do the income letter- too many complaints- costs too much etc etc. 

 

However, on the Us Embassy Bangkok website- there is still listed- a General Affidavit with an example- You write in the information-  I have actually used this in the past to state income but for a support issue- not Immigration. The affidavit as signed and accepted.  

 

It should also be noted that the announcement by the US Embassy- stated they will not in the future notarize- the 'current' income affidavit- but it does not say they will not notarize a general affidavit stating income and source.  Hence- my conversation with the Vice Consul end of December- but she wants to see the wording.

 

 

 

 

[garyk]

Actually I am heading in that direction (south of the border) soon. I will post some of my experiences while there.

It is my firm belief that the Thai government wants the money in the bank. They want a secure income stream from retirees. America, UK, Australia are the biggest group here.

I would say if they would work with the expat, with in come statements and such it would be different. But, this is just too obvious IMO. Also 65K/mo. is a joke. 

400-800K seasoned for 3 months. Or transfers from your home country showing the 40 or 65K/mo. 

I mean how obvious can you be... ????

 

[Jingthing]

8 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Columbia is doing it as their website states- I cannot believe that  the US Embassy in Columbia is actually going back directly to Social Security or the  Vets Department- It could be the applicant shows their 'Award' Letter to the Embassy- then fills out the General Affidavit- states their income- takes the Oath- and it is signed. Columbia Immigration accepts it/

 

The missing info is what did Thai Immigration really ask the Embassies to do-at the May 2018 meeting and why have only 4 Embassies stopped their letters.  It may be that the term 'certification' scared the 4 Embassies because there is no true certification unless the actual source of the income provides that.  I believe the Us Embassy Bangkok took the easy road based upon input from the BE. Neither truly- IMo- wanted to do the income letter- too many complaints- costs too much etc etc. 

 

However, on the Us Embassy Bangkok website- there is still listed- a General Affidavit with an example- You write in the information-  I have actually used this in the past to state income but for a support issue- not Immigration. The affidavit as signed and accepted.  

 

It should also be noted that the announcement by the US Embassy- stated they will not in the future notarize- the 'current' income affidavit- but it does not say they will not notarize a general affidavit stating income and source.  Hence- my conversation with the Vice Consul end of December- but she wants to see the wording.

 

 

 

 

Impressive.

It sounds like you are on the cutting edge of this issue.

I have not even looked at the other embassy websites as yet.

You are saying they are definitely just standard affidavits?

I totally agree there is almost no chance those two embassies are directly contacting social security.

Clearly they are looking at the printed letters and providing a document to officialize either the documents and/or the income flow stated in the documents. 
I really don't know for sure what they're getting for this service as to exactly what it looks like. 

I got my information that they were offering the service from other sources (both personal accounts and advice links) but they didn't get into technical name for the embassy service or what the resulting paper looked like. 

Please keep us all posted on what you find out.

 

Edited January 11, 2019 by Jingthing

[Suradit69]

11 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

It should also be noted that the announcement by the US Embassy- stated they will not in the future notarize- the 'current' income affidavit- but it does not say they will not notarize a general affidavit stating income and source.  Hence- my conversation with the Vice Consul end of December- but she wants to see the wording.

And as I said above, I know of someone who mistakenly used the "blank affidavit" some years ago and was told by the consular officer it would not be accepted by Thai Immigrations. He was handed the specific affidavit form and told to use that.

 

Of course things can change and obviously do change but I expect,  given their announcement, the embassy would be reluctant to try anything that circumvented the spirit, if not the letter, of their announcement that they would not be issuing income affidavits to support extension applications to Thai Immigrations.

 

Although they do state:

 

 

Quote

 

Services we CAN provide:

Affidavits
Oftentimes the Thai government requests the U.S. Embassy or Consulate General Chiang Mai “certify” documents listed under “services we cannot provide.” Please note the Embassy and Consulate CAN notarize an affidavit which may or may not satisfy the Thai requirement for “certification.”

 

But that's still an affidavit and they put in quotes "certify" as if that's not really what it amounts to.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 11, 2019 by Suradit69

[Srikcir]

13 hours ago, Jingthing said:

What it is specifically is about social security benefit letters which expats can get either from a MySSA account if they have that, or by request.

These letters are not signed

On the other hand the Annuity Statement for US federal pensions is signed by the Deputy Associate Director Retirement Operations.

What I find a little discerning is that previously we had to just justify sources of foreign income that met the Bt40-65k monthly income requirement. But that has morphed into foreign income transferred to Thailand. As some of my monthly income comes from a foreign bank to a Thailand branch of the same foreign bank via ATM, when deposited into my Thai bank it shows as a domestic deposit.

[Jingthing]

6 minutes ago, garyk said:

Actually I am heading in that direction (south of the border) soon. I will post some of my experiences while there.

It is my firm belief that the Thai government wants the money in the bank. They want a secure income stream from retirees. America, UK, Australia are the biggest group here.

I would say if they would work with the expat, with in come statements and such it would be different. But, this is just too obvious IMO. Also 65K/mo. is a joke. 

400-800K seasoned for 3 months. Or transfers from your home country showing the 40 or 65K/mo. 

I mean how obvious can you be... ????

 

Yeah and no.

The majority of nations are still issuing income letters, those letters are still accepted by Thailand immigration, and armed with those letters no specific import of monies is required at all. So you're not really right for now anyway. 

[ocddave]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

I don't think Thailand is an apostle country.

Colombia and Peru are yet they waive the apostle for social security benefits letters with a verification service from the U.S. embassy for U.S. applicants.

I don't think your info is really relevant to this issue that I brought up. 
Thailand continues to accept "income letters" from most embassies! But not the U.S. and some others. 

So the logical thing with the benefits letter is not to seek an apostle (something Thailand isn't into) but to seek an alternative "embassy letter" which is something they widely accept, have for a long time, and still accept.

So I appreciate the info you shared but it really is not on point to the specific questions in the O.P.

Cheers.

You can still Authenticate the signatures thru the US State Department, then get Thai Embassy legalization, and MFA verification. So it is more relevant then you think, Apostle and Authentication are two different things, but without the Thai Embassy Legalization and MFA Verification, you are never going to get the US SSA benefits letter to go anywhere.

[Thaidream]

The new Thai Imm Guidelines- for income- specifically state an Embassy letter certifying income is accepted.

 

The question is why the US Embassy in Columbia is using the the term certification and explicitly saying they can provide  this service when the US Embassy in Bangkok is saying they cannot- There is a missing piece here somewhere.

 

The Us Embassy in Thailand has a General Affidavit- I believe with the correct wording (to be determined) they will notarize a person declaring their income-source and amount- 

 

Since Thai immigration is accepting letters from every country except the 4- will they accept the General Affidavit from the Us Embassy if  available?

 

 

[Jingthing]

Just now, ocddave said:

You can still Authenticate the signatures thru the US State Department, then get Thai Embassy legalization, and MFA verification. So it is more relevant then you think, Apostle and Authentication are two different things, but without the Thai Embassy Legalization and MFA Verification, you are never going to get the US SSA benefits letter to go anywhere.

Those social security benefits letters are not signed so there is no signature to authenticate. 

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, Thaidream said:

The new Thai Imm Guidelines- for income- specifically state an Embassy letter certifying income is accepted.

 

The question is why the US Embassy in Columbia is using the the term certification and explicitly saying they can provide  this service when the US Embassy in Bangkok is saying they cannot- There is a missing piece here somewhere.

 

The Us Embassy in Thailand has a General Affidavit- I believe with the correct wording (to be determined) they will notarize a person declaring their income-source and amount- 

 

Since Thai immigration is accepting letters from every country except the 4- will they accept the General Affidavit from the Us Embassy if  available?

 

 

Wasn't the U.S. embassy making an excuse some months ago that there was an international rule now that they can't verify any income? As you can see I am confused about all these terms. Frankly, it's clear I'm the wrong person to follow up on these issues with the embassy. It's either you or someone else if they are so inclined. I hope you or others do and get back to us with findings. It's interesting to me that you seem to agree with me there may be something odd about the embassies in Colombia and Peru still being able to help out expats with at least social security letters, and embassy here as it stands now anyway can't.

[ocddave]

5 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Those social security benefits letters are not signed so there is no signature to authenticate. 

Which means you are going to have to get it notarized locally before sending to the next step, sort of like I had to do with my Marriage Certificate.

 

http://www.internationalapostille.com/how-to-apostille-a-social-security-letter/

 

Quote

Please note that some Apostille Service companies will recommend to have this document notarized and Apostilled by the Secretary of State (Example: California Secretary of State Apostille) .  The Social Security Letter is a Federal document and MUST be authenticated by the Secretary of the District of Columbia in Washington, D.C.

 

Edited January 11, 2019 by ocddave

[Suradit69]

5 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

What I find a little discerning is that previously we had to just justify sources of foreign income that met the Bt40-65k monthly income requirement. But that has morphed into foreign income transferred to Thailand. As some of my monthly income comes from a foreign bank to a Thailand branch of the same foreign bank via ATM, when deposited into my Thai bank it shows as a domestic deposit.

Yes, that is an important distinction that, for some people, is creating a stumbling block.  Having a regular income of Baht 65,000 a month is one thing. Depositing it all in a Thai bank was not a requirement and is something different from having a "provable" income of at least that amount.

[Thaidream]

4 minutes ago, Suradit69 said:

Of course things can change and obviously do change but I expect,  given their announcement, the embassy would be reluctant to try anything that circumvented the spirit, if not the letter, of their announcement that they would not be issuing income affidavits to support extension applications to Thai Immigrations.

You could be right- but in the past there was an Income affidavit and a General Affidavit-  so I can understand why the Embassy indicated Thai Imm would not then accept  the General Affidavit.  The only way is to ask the Us Embassy which at some point I will.  More research needed

 

[Jingthing]

6 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

You could be right- but in the past there was an Income affidavit and a General Affidavit-  so I can understand why the Embassy indicated Thai Imm would not then accept  the General Affidavit.  The only way is to ask the Us Embassy which at some point I will.  More research needed

 

Please please do that and get back to us.

By starting this topic, I was not presenting myself as highly knowledgeable on these issues or an appropriate person to follow up with them at the embassy.

I was asking for help and more info from people with a better understanding than me.

I just saw the info I was hearing about the service offered at the U.S. embassies in Colombia and Peru as "something fishy" in that they are providing a very important service to their expats there, but then we were cut off being told they can't do it here for us any longer.

On the face of it, in a simplistic sense, that just struck me as NOT FAIR. 

But I realize different countries, different immigration rules, but it seems to me the U.S. embassy rules as far as provided services would be expected to be the SAME.

Edited January 11, 2019 by Jingthing

[Suradit69]

15 minutes ago, garyk said:

Also 65K/mo. is a joke. 

I assume you mean it's a trivial amount.

 

17 minutes ago, garyk said:

400-800K seasoned for 3 months. Or transfers from your home country showing the 40 or 65K/mo. 

I mean how obvious can you be... ????

Not quite sure what this means.

 

I agree that for most people here that depositing Baht 65,000 a month into a Thai bank or dumping Baht 800,000 into a Thai bank shouldn't be a major problem.  But there are undoubtedly people who have stayed here for 10, maybe 20 years, whose resources have dwindled and who may just be managing to meet the Baht 65,000 a month but need to keep some of their money at home for other expenses. 

 

If you're in your 80's and have always complied with Thai Immigrations requirements, these changes could put you up against the wall. And many of those people no longer have a fall-back plan.

 

For some of us it's just an annoying change that we have to adjust to, but for some flexibility may no longer exist.