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U.S. embassy income letter redux -- officializing social security benefits documents


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16 minutes ago, Nyezhov said:

But hey, on behalf of all who may need the Hail Mary, thanks for your help. 

Any time. BTW remember this chestnut from the folks at CW:

 2.2  In case of having any other income from abroad such as pension, social welfare
     -  Letter from the applicant’s Embassy or consulate in Thailand verifying their pension or other income of the applicant which must not be less than 65,000 Baht per month.

http://bangkok.immigration.go.th/en/base.php?page=faq

 

Edited by JLCrab
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16 hours ago, ukrules said:

Thailand wants the amount which is 'verified / guaranteed' to be in Baht and as we can all see the Baht has not been stable against anything.

To me it appears baht is very stable and strengthening as normally expected due to huge influx of foreign direct investment in infrastructure and also expat remittances. At this rate one analyst predicted baht will be $23/baht by 2023 when I start receiving my SS. Bye bye Thailand. We had a good run not time to seek different lands. 

Edited by onera1961
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25 minutes ago, Pib said:

Nor can the US Embassy Columbia verify a person's income.,  but apparently Columbia Immigration is happy enough with the income letter issued....do not require verification....probably have fewer issues with some Americans stretching the truth regarding true income....probably a lot fewer Americans in Columbia compared to Thailand.  Because like you said the US Embassy -Colombia still issue income letters for folks getting retirement visa/extensions in Columbia.

Maybe I'm just getting old- maybe I just don't believe what I have been told and question things too much- maybe I need another glass of wine- but I honestly have the feeling that something is amiss here. 

 

The Us-embassy appears to be saying Thai Immigration is asking them to certify the citizens income and they cannot do it.  Yet the US Embassy in Columbia not only says they can do it- they even place it on their website.

 

My instincts tell me that Thai Imm did ask for certification and rather than the Us Embassy taking the same approach as in Columbia (no problem- bring in your Social Security Letter; etc etc) take the Oath and it is considered certified.- the US Embassy Thailand refused to do it.  They could have easily said bring in the award letters- we will say we saw them and verified the amounts presented and also place the disclaimer on the letter. A win-win all around.

 

I think the US Embassy in Bangkok took the easy way out- refused  a service that could have easily been accommodated by simply telling Thai Imm- this is what we are going to do- You can accept it- not accept it or ask for added information. I believe Thai Imm would accept it- simply because they are accepting the other Embassy Letters even though the majority are simply viewing documents just like the Us Embassy in Columbia is doing.

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, mosan said:

I am presently doing a Non-Imm O-A through the Thai embassy in Washington D.C. 

LA embassy takes IRA or 401(K) investment also as proof of 800K in the bank for O-A. They also take Social Security and Military pension or  Company Pension letter. But, I guess, they won't take rental, dividend/interest income etc. as income. Embassy income letter was all about monthly income, irrespective of source.

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As I have said before, when I got my original visa in the Thai embassy in Washington DC they accepted my computer printed copy of my Social Security benefits letter as proof of income.  I know it is silly to attribute smarts to Thai Immigration but I think it would be a lot easier for everyone involved if they would follow the same process.  

 

I am also aware that the US Embassy certifies the Social Security letter in other countries.  Basically, they just do the same process as the old income letters and notarize them.  I think Thai Immigration would accept this certification if the US Embassy would approach them with the idea.  Jumping through hoops is getting old to renew visas.

 

Panama has a one time process with no constant visa renewals and 90 day reports.  I am sure there are many other retirement havens that do the same.

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OP  mentions the benefit letter from SSA. For US war veterans there is a similar benefit letter available that shows monthly disability compensation payment amounts. I think this is something VFW chapters/posts in Thailand could look into and approach the embassy for an accommodation of this on behalf of their membership The letter can be found on the va.gov site under Download Benefit Letters

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2 hours ago, mlmcleod said:

Panama has a one time process with no constant visa renewals and 90 day reports.  I am sure there are many other retirement havens that do the same. 

Mexico for one. It is a fairly straight forward process   advancing over a short period of years and then one becomes eligible for Residente Permante. When I got mine it came with a letter from the Presidente welcoming me and advising me of all the social benefits I would be entitled to, I just wouldn't be able to vote or serve in the military but I could work/start a business/attend university/enroll in national health insurance plans and more

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2 minutes ago, khunbillmex said:

Mexico for one. It is a fairly straight forward process   advancing over a short period of years and then one becomes eligible for Residente Permante. When I got mine it came with a letter from the Presidente welcoming me and advising me of all the social benefits I would be entitled to, I just wouldn't be able to vote or serve in the military but I could work/start a business/attend university/enroll in national health insurance plans and more

Do they sell som tam on the streets in Mexico?

 

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Even if the US embassy could be persuaded to certify Social Security statements and if TI would accept that as proof, the average Social Security payment is under $1600.00 which is well below the $2100. that would meet the 65000 baht requirement.  However, since it would be an "Embassy Letter", it might work as the income part of the combination method.

The Thai Embassy in Washington DC does accept Social Security statements without certification.  Who knows if US embassies and consulates would certify such statements?

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Yes-this would work as far as an official notarization - However- time consuming and cumbersome and who know if Thai Imm would accept.
 
Reading the Citizens Service section of the US Embassy Website in Columbia- it appears they are working with Colombian Imm as the Us Embassy provides  an income letter- an Award letter- etc- which 'certifies'  income from  US Social Security- the military- veterans department.  I am sure they either have the applicant fill out a general affidavit or have one specifically for this purpose. At some point- I am sure the applicant has to show their award letter from Us Social Security etc.
 
The question remains why is the US Embassy in Columbia and possibly Peru able to produce this type of letter and call it certification when the US Embassy refuses to do the same. Why wouldn't the Us Embassy look at the same letters with letterheads and say the same thing. 
 
The following again from the US Embassy in Columbia- quoting-
 

On the day of your notary appointment you will need to present:

  • Original or copy of valid U.S. Passport
  • Documentation from Social Security, Veterans, private pension from the current year indicating the amount you receive or bank statements from the last three months showing the monthly amount you receive
  • Notary fee
 
Again- why can't the Us Embassy Bangkok do this and Columbia can?  I believe Us citizens deserve an answer.
 
Yes exactly and I also know for a fact you can pay an immigration lawyer to do this because it's in Bogota and most retired expats in Colombia live far away from Bogota.

Why not indeed?
Can do in Colombia but not here.
I'm sorry but I personally lack the chutzpah and confidence to complain at US embassy but I'm sure many people would appreciate it if there is one person or more up to the task that can us answers at the least or maybe even the remote chance of a solution.

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Yes- I hope no one relies on this thread and assumes anything will change. Continue to plan on the transfer deposits if you use that.
 
Absolutely don't expect the US embassy to come through for us. At this point it's obvious their position is that they have already completely washed their hands of the matter of issuing income letters.



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While all the conjecture about what Thai immigration might take...we do know what they will take.   Been moving baht into Thai bank every month inorder to have the 800K before current visa expires.   Do not try to beat the system...resistance is futile! 
Irrelevant to this thread. Members please stick to the actual topic here which has nothing to do with the 800k bank method.

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It is not the same affidavit- the affidavit you did was a special embassy produced template to be used  specifically for Thai Immigration.
 
The General Affadavit- is a form with your basic information plus a large area where a citizen writes in the information they want to attest to- The Vice Consul reviews the info- if OK- you swear it is correct and they sign it.  You can find the blank form at the US Embassy Website.
 
The question of this thread is why can the Us Embassy Columbia- agree to view a citizen's  documentation (Social Security; military pension etc) and issue a document that certifies this  income and the US Embassy Thailand states they cannot do this or will not do this .(US Embassy Columbia/Citizens Services/Notarial s for reference)
 
It appears the US Embassy in Bangkok is either misinformed or simply refuses the same service that the US Embassy in Columbia provides. 
 
 
Worse case scenario on this. The embassy here gets goaded into talking to the embassies in Peru and Colombia and then the embassies there decide to cut the service too!

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Regardless of what the US Embassy - Bangkok said about the State Dept saying their couldn't/shouldn't issue the income affidavit that's all BS.  They stopped because Thai Immigration wanted them to really verify the income which the embassy truly can not do.     
 
Nor can the US Embassy Columbia verify a person's income.,  but apparently Columbia Immigration is happy enough with the income letter issued....do not require verification....probably have fewer issues with some Americans stretching the truth regarding true income....probably a lot fewer Americans in Columbia compared to Thailand.  Because like you said the US Embassy -Colombia still issue income letters for folks getting retirement visa/extensions in Columbia.
 
https://co.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/notaries-public/
image.png.0661e1cd366ee4fdf537b9f28e168efc.png
Honestly Americans in Colombia are not using fake social security letters! Why do I know this? Because the current income requirement is only about 800 usd monthly which the vast majority of SS recepiebts have. Unlike Thailand where the requirement is 65k baht monthly way over the average SS check.

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OP  mentions the benefit letter from SSA. For US war veterans there is a similar benefit letter available that shows monthly disability compensation payment amounts. I think this is something VFW chapters/posts in Thailand could look into and approach the embassy for an accommodation of this on behalf of their membership The letter can be found on the va.gov site under Download Benefit Letters
I focused on SS letters because the retirement visas in Colombia and Peru specify the need for government issued retirement pensions. Perhaps they include military pensions too. They should if they don't of course.

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Even if the US embassy could be persuaded to certify Social Security statements and if TI would accept that as proof, the average Social Security payment is under $1600.00 which is well below the $2100. that would meet the 65000 baht requirement.  However, since it would be an "Embassy Letter", it might work as the income part of the combination method.
The Thai Embassy in Washington DC does accept Social Security statements without certification.  Who knows if US embassies and consulates would certify such statements?
OA visa application process is not the same thing as retirement extensions in Thailand. I don't think information about OAs is really relevant to this topic. For example for an OA you can show money in the US rather than Thailand. Extensions money must be in Thailand.

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Do they sell som tam on the streets in Mexico?
 
No but you can get chili fried grasshoppers in Oaxaca and worm tacos in some other regions. Mexican food in Mexico is some of the best food in the world but alas back to this income letter redux issue.

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11 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Absolutely don't expect the US embassy to come through for us. At this point it's obvious their position is that they have already completely washed their hands of the matter of issuing income letters.
 

Totally agree.  Elvis has left the building. 

 

All the US Embassy's talk about explaining (teaching) HQ Thai Immigration and some individual offices about the different forms of documentation US folks generally have to prove income such as social security pension, military retirement, VA retirement, civil service retirement, annuity statement, and other income documents was a futile attempt to justify their decision to stop issuing income letters. 

 

I expect Thai Immigration folks listened politely and asked some questions as the US Embassy gave their dog-and-pony briefing about various income docs, but Thai Immigration was really thinking "too hard, too many possible docs in all kinds of formats, too easy to fake, will be arguing with applicants all the time....Nope, I'm going to keep it simple and only accept Thai bank documents reflecting foreign inflow of funds monthly...use the KISS principle."  

Edited by Pib
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3 hours ago, Pib said:

expect Thai Immigration folks listened politely and asked some questions as the US Embassy gave their dog-and-pony briefing about various income docs, but Thai Immigration was really thinking "too hard, too many possible docs in all kinds of formats, too easy to fake, will be arguing with applicants all the time....Nope, I'm going to keep it simple and only accept Thai bank documents reflecting foreign inflow of funds monthly...use the KISS principle." 

Thanks for your detailed explanations on Transferwise and other things related to banking and technology issues. Much appreciated.

 

 

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On 1/11/2019 at 1:34 PM, Moonfire said:

Passport number tied to social security number tied to your last years' tax return statement. Would think you could automate this.

 

Set an appointment where you enter your passport number and your request.

It would do an auto search of the database, pull the final income number and add that to a prefilled out form.

 

Show up to the Embassy, show passport and social security number, the staff prints the form, you swear to the document and it is done.

 

Your tax returns are used for credit, home and auto purchases. The government holds the key document which is your social security number and the amount declared on your tax return. 

 

But that would be thinking something simple and efficent could be done by a government to help their citizens. 

 

 

Most US retirees aren't required to file income tax so therefore receive no tax return

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1 hour ago, carken said:

Most US retirees aren't required to file income tax so therefore receive no tax return

I don’t believe that statement is true. Most military retirees earn enough from a combination of SS, DFAS and other income to compel them to file annual federal income tax returns. All US military retirees contributed to SSA for their entire term of service and as such are entitled to receive at least those two pension streams. 

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On 1/11/2019 at 10:26 AM, Moonlover said:

It really is very obvious, and has been from the start, that what Thai Imm wants to see is money in a Thai bank account, Either 800/400k annually or the requisite monthly incomes as specified.

 

If you can satisfy that requirement, then there is no point in chasing after embassy based solutions. And if you can't meet the requirements then, well you know the answer to that one!

 

Ok mock me if you will, but IMO it's time you all put the old ways behind you and got on with preparing for the future. I started doing that back in October when this first kicked off and I'm now fully geared up to face the next income based extension in August. The one that all the 'gloom and doom brigade' said would never happen.

 

ML

A serious question. Is there a difference in using the ATM machine to withdraw funds from a foreign (US) bank account and having the funds IN a Thai bank account? Since my bank provides a detailed statement showing that the funds were withdrawn at a specific Thai ATM location and my monthly statements show the source of my funds, I have to assume that your post is likely the most accurate speculation...about having funds/adequate amount IN a Thai bank account. So the bank account somehow figures into this new police order?

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On 1/12/2019 at 6:23 PM, carken said:

Most US retirees aren't required to file income tax so therefore receive no tax return

I expect "most" US retirees do need to file an income "unless their annual income is less that approx $12,000 for 2018."   

 

But this trigger levels varies depending on various factors like  the person filing status (single, married, etc), type of income, etc.,  which determines his standard deduction.   

 

And if a US retiree is living in Thailand on $12,000 total income to his name and been using the embassy income letter to get his annual retirement extension of stay, then he's been disingenuous in affirming to the letter. 

 

Like below quote from TurboTax talking $12K for a person filing as a single.  $12K is not a lot...an average of $1,000 per month....I expect most social security pensions exceed that.   But all of a social security pension is not taxable so his income could still be more than $12K per year to avoid filing....probably up to around $16-20K per year.     

 

Like I said a person whether a person needs to file or not is based on several factors.   It's best to use the IRS webpage where a person can check their specific situation as to whether they need to file an income tax return as factors other than just the standard deduction amount can determine tax return filing need.  Several IRS webpages below help in determining.

 

https://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tips/irs-tax-return/does-everyone-need-to-file-an-income-tax-return/L7pluHkoW

Quote

 

For 2018 all taxpayers are eligible to claim a standard deduction, and if not the dependent of another taxpayer. The standard tax deduction amounts are fixed by the government before the tax filing season and generally increase for inflation each year.

Your income that is equal to or less than the standard deduction is not taxable, the IRS doesn't require you to file a return in years your income doesn't exceed that sum. When determining whether you need to file a return, you don't include tax-exempt income. In 2018 for example, if you are under age 65 and single, you must file a tax return if you earn $12,000 or more, which is the 2018 standard deduction for a single taxpayer.

 

 

Do I Need to File a Federal Tax Return?....a couple of key IRS webpages to help a person determine the answer

 

https://www.irs.gov/help/ita/do-i-need-to-file-a-tax-return

 

https://www.irs.com/articles/who-has-file-federal-income-tax-return

 

 

 

 

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26 minutes ago, pizzachang said:

A serious question. Is there a difference in using the ATM machine to withdraw funds from a foreign (US) bank account and having the funds IN a Thai bank account? Since my bank provides a detailed statement showing that the funds were withdrawn at a specific Thai ATM location and my monthly statements show the source of my funds, I have to assume that your post is likely the most accurate speculation...about having funds/adequate amount IN a Thai bank account. So the bank account somehow figures into this new police order?

Same here...it’s how we’ve funded our 15 years of living here, in addition to credit card charges...all of which can readily be printed out from our USA bank’s website. But it seems unlikely these printouts will be accepted by TI.  In a stretch of one’s imagination, such printouts could be faked by someone proficient with a PC.  It’s not too easy to forge a Thai bank record with its official stamp.

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11 minutes ago, Pib said:

But all of a social security pension is not taxable so his income could still be more than $12K per year to avoid filing....probably up to around $16-20K per year.     

 

Not necessarily so....SSA benefits are taxable at an 85% rate if ones total income rises above a certain level.  In other words, 15% of one’s benefits are not subject to taxation, but the remainder is added to other income for each fact year and the taxpayer’s total tax liability is calculated on his or her total adjusted gross income.  

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4 minutes ago, Fore Man said:

Not necessarily so....SSA benefits are taxable at an 85% rate if ones total income rises above a certain level.  In other words, 15% of one’s benefits are not subject to taxation, but the remainder is added to other income for each fact year and the taxpayer’s total tax liability is calculated on his or her total adjusted gross income.

Correct- if one works and draws social security- it can be taxed as high as 85% of total.  There is a formula one should run in the IRS 1040 Instruction packet.   Such things as military disability, Veterans Disability and private disability are tax free and do not have to be declared.  For married couples in this years filing (2018) one's standard deduction is $24,000/ 

Things like private pensions are considered taxable income.

 

Even if one has no taxes to pay -one still has to file if they are getting any taxable income.

 

The tax code is somewhat complicated (runs 75,000 pages) but I have always filed my own taxes.  When in doubt go to the IRS 1040 Instructions and it should tell one how to handle their situation.  There is also a special phone number for overseas tax filers-  1-267-941-1000  (6AM-10 PM  Eastern Time) Best time is right when they open...

 

Remember if legally married - you have to have a Tax ID number to file as  Married- Joint.  Google IRS Tax ID  and it will walk you through the paperwork and steps.

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3 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Correct- if one works and draws social security- it can be taxed as high as 85% of total.  There is a formula one should run in the IRS 1040 Instruction packet.   Such things as military disability, Veterans Disability and private disability are tax free and do not have to be declared.  For married couples in this years filing (2018) one's standard deduction is $24,000/ 

Things like private pensions are considered taxable income.

 

Even if one has no taxes to pay -one still has to file if they are getting any taxable income.

 

The tax code is somewhat complicated (runs 75,000 pages) but I have always filed my own taxes.  When in doubt go to the IRS 1040 Instructions and it should tell one how to handle their situation.  There is also a special phone number for overseas tax filers-  1-267-941-1000  (6AM-10 PM  Eastern Time) Best time is right when they open...

 

Remember if legally married - you have to have a Tax ID number to file as  Married- Joint.  Google IRS Tax ID  and it will walk you through the paperwork and steps.

You’ve offered a very good post, but I’d like to clarify that I am fully retired and have been for several years, but I do draw multiple income streams derived from taxable private and federal pensions, including SSA and DFAS military retirement pensions.  My annual SSA income is still taxed at the 85% rate. 

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15 minutes ago, Fore Man said:

You’ve offered a very good post, but I’d like to clarify that I am fully retired and have been for several years, but I do draw multiple income streams derived from taxable private and federal pensions, including SSA and DFAS military retirement pensions.  My annual SSA income is still taxed at the 85% rate. 

Yes- when you add it all up- if it is over a certain threshold-SS does become taxable- 85% max).  However, if any of your pensions or payments are from Disability- claimed as a result of being service connect- you don't have to declare it or pay on taxes on that portion.

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3 hours ago, pizzachang said:

A serious question. Is there a difference in using the ATM machine to withdraw funds from a foreign (US) bank account and having the funds IN a Thai bank account?

As far as qualifying for a retirement ext yes, your method will not!

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9 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

As far as qualifying for a retirement ext yes, your method will not!

Yes, it seems to be the requirement that British, American, Australian and Danish expats will have to show funds [income method or bank account method] in a Thai bank account.

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