Corruption or not corruption

[4MyEgo]

I have been living here 3 years now after travelling to Thailand since 2006, that's when I fell in love with Thailand.

 

My extension of is stay based on marriage and is ending alter this month, and my 90 days expires around the same time, so I decided to get them both done Friday after dropping the kids off at school as the provincial immigration office is an hour drive further from the kids school.

 

The day before we went to the bank after dropping the kids to school so that we could get the letter saying I have the funds in the bank, well, don't ask me what happened, but we were thinking if we got there at 8.30am and being first cab off the rank we would be out in 10-15 minutes tops, nope, even though we were 1st cab off the rank it took a whole hour and 5 minutes, yep, I kid you not, there we were sitting at the desk with the staff member paper shuffling and finally with the assistance of another, we left an hour and 5 minutes later FMD, then went and got the usual photos to stick on the application, 30 minutes later.

 

Next day we drove to the province that the immigration office is at, make a small withdrawal in town and update the bank passbook and then stop and get two photocopies of the up to date bank passbook to add to the 51 or so papers for the immigration office, plus another set (copy), I do feel sorry for all those trees being cut down ????

 

In we went at around 9.45am, no one there, you beauty, 45 minutes later and some more forms to fill in and we were asked for the photos of us outside and inside the house, oops, I looked at the wife and she said, can't you use the ones on file, nope was the reply, she then asked if she could email them to the IO, nope was the reply again, so as opposed to coming back on Monday, i.e. doing the 2 hour 40 minute round trip, the immigration officer said look to my wife; if you want to contribute 500 baht to our New Years party fund I can give you my LINE number and when you get home take a few photos and send them to me and I will get them developed and put them with your application form on Monday.

 

The above said is one supposed to get upset over 500 baht based on principal, I mean the guy could have flatly said, take your papers and come back Monday, (this has happened to me in my home country), so I consider he did us a favor, not a free favor, but a favor for payment of course, I suppose I am grateful because it's Saturday and I am still in my PJ's at 3pm and have been doing the things I have been wanting to do, even though it pi$$ed off the Mrs who wanted to go back Monday with the developed photos, for what I said, you won't save anything by the time you pay to develop the photos, say 100 baht, and take the cost of petrol into consideration, say 400 baht....lol, sometimes you have to weigh it all up, add pollution ware and tear to the vehicle ????

 

The above said new photos went this morning to the IO's LINE number and were acceptable as was his reply, so I hope they have a few drinks and a feed on me when and if they have the New Years party and of course hope no one chokes, so I can't say that I see this as corruption although would be interested to hear others point of views. 

 

All of the above said, I couldn't believe it when I slipped him the 500 baht, with him saying he has given me a 90 day extension and said in future when you re-enter the country, you MUST come here within 24 hours to notify us that you have returned, with me saying, but isn't my passport being stamped at the point of return notice that I am back, maybe in your country was his reply, but here in Thailand, we are not linked up <deleted>, so we don't know what your movements are until we see your passport stamps, so be careful or you can be fined, with my reply being, ok, but what happens when I come into a port that is a long way from you and I am staying there for a week until I get home, the you go to a police station and they will give you a paper which you will give to us when you return home FMD, has anyone heard of this rule ?

[ubonjoe]

I would can it a paid favor. If he had to to pay to have the photos printed it would of been covered with what you gave him.

I the 24 hours after arrival at your residence is to report your presence at your residence using the TM30 for and has nothing to to with 90 day reporting. If you stayed in hotels before arriving at your residence they should do the report online and would be responsible for it not being done. You could show hotel receipts to prove you had not returned home yet.

[BritManToo]

Photos printed from a camera or USB stick normally cost 5bht each in Chiang Mai.

[cleopatra2]

38 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

I would can it a paid favor. If he had to to pay to have the photos printed it would of been covered with what you gave him.

I the 24 hours after arrival at your residence is to report your presence at your residence using the TM30 for and has nothing to to with 90 day reporting. If you stayed in hotels before arriving at your residence they should do the report online and would be responsible for it not being done. You could show hotel receipts to prove you had not returned home yet.

It is not clear from the OP if he received the 'under consideration stamp' before leaving immigration, assuming applying for 1 year extension

[jackdd]

Depends on your definition of corruption

Imho this is one type of corruption, you got a favor from somebody in an official position for giving this person a personal benefit.

[cleopatra2]

7 minutes ago, jackdd said:

Depends on your definition of corruption

Imho this is one type of corruption, you got a favor from somebody in an official position for giving this person a personal benefit.

Every IO I have attended requires photos supplied by the applicant to be self certified by the applicant

[Lacessit]

Maybe it is corrupt; however, consider the alternative. Being screwed around for hours or days until the ducks are all in a neat row.

I finished up having to pay an Australian migration agent $1200 (AUD) to get a tourist visa for my Thai GF to go to Australia on holiday. Everything was legal, but it was also much more expensive than anything I've paid in Thailand.

[ExpatDraco]

I would have said: here's 1000, can I come to the party also? :-D

[4MyEgo]

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

I would can it a paid favor. If he had to to pay to have the photos printed it would of been covered with what you gave him.

I the 24 hours after arrival at your residence is to report your presence at your residence using the TM30 for and has nothing to to with 90 day reporting. If you stayed in hotels before arriving at your residence they should do the report online and would be responsible for it not being done. You could show hotel receipts to prove you had not returned home yet.

Agreed, a favor.

 

I might have ballsed the 90 day thing up, meaning he said when I re-enter the country on a re-entry visa, I have to notify them 24 hours after I arrive. So, ok, that's 24 hours after I get home, and take receipts of hotel, that's good to know, thanks Joe.

Edited January 12, 2019 by 4MyEgo

[4MyEgo]

1 hour ago, cleopatra2 said:

It is not clear from the OP if he received the 'under consideration stamp' before leaving immigration, assuming applying for 1 year extension

No stamp in my passport, just another 90 day white piece of paper stapled into my passport, although I have been advised to return on the 1st March, assuming for the extension stamp.

[ubonjoe]

11 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

No stamp in my passport, just another 90 day white piece of paper stapled into my passport, although I have been advised to return on the 1st March, assuming for the extension stamp.

You should of gotten the under consideration stamp with a report back date on it.

Did you pay the 1900 fee for the extension? When does your current extension end?

[cleopatra2]

28 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

Agreed, a favor.

 

I might have ballsed the 90 day thing up, meaning he said when I re-enter the country on a re-entry visa, I have to notify them 24 hours after I arrive. So, ok, that's 24 hours after I get home, and take receipts of hotel, that's good to know, thanks Joe.

There is a ' No Tip ' policy in operation 

 

Edited January 12, 2019 by cleopatra2

[4MyEgo]

9 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

You should of gotten the under consideration stamp with a report back date on it.

Did you pay the 1900 fee for the extension? When does your current extension end?

Your on the ball Joe, just checked the passport with my wife for a 3rd time, and we found it, it was towards the back, away from all the other stamped pages.

 

I did pay 1,900 baht and received a receipt.

 

The current extension ends 31 January, and he has dated my old 90 slip which expired 18 November 2018 with a yellow highlighter at the top and put 1 March on it and some writing in Thai, translated by my wife advising me that it says, "waiting for the result".

 

I re-entered the country on 27 October 2018, so I suppose that I have till 1 March and don't need a white slip ? 

[fruitman]

But you do feel welcome in Thailand, don't you? ???? (thai smile)...

[JackThompson]

That's "tea money" for a favor - fee for service, since those photos completed a legit application.

"Corruption" usually involves payments of 15K Baht or more - usually via an agent (though not always) - and is often in one of two contexts:

• You have everything required, and they make up bs-reasons to deny your application
• You literally don't qualify, and they take payment to let you have an extension, anyway.

Edited January 12, 2019 by JackThompson

[samran]

Corruption is you paying them to do the job they are already paid to do.

 

This is a bit more grey. On the face of it he’s probably just moonlighting as a photo printing service. So long as he isn’t the only photo printing service you can use then that should be fine and it isn’t corruption to me. 

 

The big question is whether that 500 baht also goes to anything else which gets you around the rules or gets you to the front of the queue? That would be corruption. 

Edited January 12, 2019 by samran

[JackThompson]

9 minutes ago, samran said:

Corruption is you paying them to do the job they are already paid to do.

... this variant borders on extortion - if not explicitly so - when you have a life/family here based on following the published laws/rules.

 

"Nice wife and/or kids you've got there.  Shame if couldn't see her/them any more..."

[4MyEgo]

2 hours ago, JackThompson said:

... this variant borders on extortion - if not explicitly so - when you have a life/family here based on following the published laws/rules.

 

"Nice wife and/or kids you've got there.  Shame if couldn't see her/them any more..."

If they ever tried that on me, we would go to plan C as my wife and children have dual passports and as the saying goes, have money, will travel.

[Will27]

20 hours ago, Lacessit said:

Maybe it is corrupt; however, consider the alternative. Being screwed around for hours or days until the ducks are all in a neat row.

I finished up having to pay an Australian migration agent $1200 (AUD) to get a tourist visa for my Thai GF to go to Australia on holiday. Everything was legal, but it was also much more expensive than anything I've paid in Thailand.

Woah!

They saw you coming I'm afraid.

 

$1200 for a $150 visa.

That's outrageous.

 

They're very simple to do as well.

[Lacessit]

21 minutes ago, Will27 said:

Woah!

They saw you coming I'm afraid.

 

$1200 for a $150 visa.

That's outrageous.

 

They're very simple to do as well.

They are not simple to do if a Thai employee in the Australian Consulate in Bangkok decides to get picky, even though I consider I supplied ample evidence of support and even a copy of a return flight booking. My first application was rejected. There is no avenue of appeal from their decision, even when it is dead wrong. Bureaucrats don't like the embarrassment of having a decision overturned, so it's simpler to just block the avenue.

Any other miracles of hindsight you would like to share with me?

 

[baansgr]

I always thought the Thai requirements for visas and extensions were quite simple and accommodating, however different offices can make the simplest thing an issue just to assert their authority, expect kickbacks or just because they damn right hate us. The increasing nonsensical BS they want for marriage/dependent extensions is ludicrous, different coloured shorts or shirts, every room pictures. What should and can be an easy process is made extremely hard for no other reason than feeling superior....next thing they will have whistles, thats a true sign of importance in thai culture

[4MyEgo]

13 minutes ago, baansgr said:

I always thought the Thai requirements for visas and extensions were quite simple and accommodating, however different offices can make the simplest thing an issue just to assert their authority, expect kickbacks or just because they damn right hate us. The increasing nonsensical BS they want for marriage/dependent extensions is ludicrous, different coloured shorts or shirts, every room pictures. What should and can be an easy process is made extremely hard for no other reason than feeling superior....next thing they will have whistles, thats a true sign of importance in thai culture

I have to admit, while I have never felt welcome in the IO, I simply put it down to their culture, i.e. I can say the same for anyone, family member ot not that visits our place, no hello or anything like that, they just go on about their business chatting to the wife, except for someone who is making a delivery for something I have purchased, they give you the usual wai, which is similar as shaking your hand, and warm, so I suppose it is an imbedded thing where they don't acknowledge your presence but know your there, so I suppose if I need to feel welcomed, I should learn the lingo, which I won't because I am have no use for it or don't wish to put myself to that trouble in my twilight years, my choice.

 

The above said, I have to give the IO credit as they have never made it difficult for me and have always been pleasant to the wife, regardless if I kind of feel awkward not being able to engage in the conversation and have only had to pay something once before, i.e. tea/petrol money for them to do the return trip ( 3 hours) for a couple of photos with them when I did the application 3 years ago.

 

One as to remember we are guests in their country regardless if some Thai's do not make us feel welcome, although when I weigh it all up, I know I am better of here then the city I came from with all it's bureaucracies and controlled state mentality, and the fact that I would have to work to survive if I had to return there.

[GreasyFingers]

Op, it is just a service offered, not in the rule book of course, but a service well worth the money.

I do not mind paying a little for a service when it saves a long trip to the IO. Remember, our time is valuable.

[natway09]

I would have just paid  gladly & never mentioned it to anyone ,,,, think

[dcnx]

Here is the problem, westerners look for all of the corrupt things happening here and only see them as corrupt. Some, based on principle, refuse to participate. Life is harder for these people. But ALL of Thailand is corrupt. Every branch of every government at every level. Every policeman, every politician, everyone, everywhere. Where we see corruption, it’s just a way of life for them.

 

Don’t look at anything as corrupt (or question if it is) and make judgment. Assume it all is and accept that this is how Thais operate. In most cases it’s not corruption to them, it’s life. Wealthy Thais know this better than the rest, it’s why most of them are wealthy.

 

Once you fully understand this and accept it, and work within their rules (corrupt or not), life gets unbelievably easy here. Backs get scratched, money trumps everything, and everyone is on the take. EVERYONE. You just have to learn how to approach it without offending them, because despite everyone being on the take, there is a right and a wrong way to do it. The right way is the Thai way. The wrong way is the western way.

 

Leave your western values in the west and forget about if it’s right or wrong to play on their level, because they don’t care if you lose. In fact, they hope you do and have set everything up here so they always have the upper hand. So play on their level, get your hands dirty, and life is so, so much easier. 

 

Take notes from wealthy Thais if you know any. 

 

No no idea why I wrote all of that. ????

[bbi1]

On 1/12/2019 at 4:39 PM, Lacessit said:

Maybe it is corrupt; however, consider the alternative. Being screwed around for hours or days until the ducks are all in a neat row.

I finished up having to pay an Australian migration agent $1200 (AUD) to get a tourist visa for my Thai GF to go to Australia on holiday. Everything was legal, but it was also much more expensive than anything I've paid in Thailand.

Why couldn't your gf go to the Aussie embassy/consulate and apply for an Oz tourist visa like how we all go to the Thai consulate to apply for a Thai tourist visa? Surely lots of people are doing this all over the world at Aussie embassies/consulates....

 

As to the OP's question, yes it sure is corruption by gaining a favour to circumvent the proper channels in a fast-track method with a small 500 baht bribe.

[cliveshep]

I'd say the I.O did you a massive favour for small money and in your shoes I would have been extremely grateful. The money went to their New Year Party Fund not into his own pocket, he went out of his way to save you a massive and expensive round trip in your own words, which he didn't need to do. He wasn't being capricious or pedantic, YOU were at fault for not providing the up-to-date photos. Again by your own admission you have been in Thailand long enough to know the rules for the Annual extension based on marriage, the copies required, the photos, the forms, You didn't follow the rules and he was being really good to help you out. Some sour-faced I.O's would have rejected your application out-of-hand and told you to come back when you had all the requirements to hand. So corruption, absolutely not, a private agreement to bail YOU out of the doo-doo yes, I only hope when I do mine next month I find an I.O like yours! You are one lucky man - be grateful! 

[Will27]

2 hours ago, Lacessit said:

They are not simple to do if a Thai employee in the Australian Consulate in Bangkok decides to get picky, even though I consider I supplied ample evidence of support and even a copy of a return flight booking. My first application was rejected. There is no avenue of appeal from their decision, even when it is dead wrong. Bureaucrats don't like the embarrassment of having a decision overturned, so it's simpler to just block the avenue.

Any other miracles of hindsight you would like to share with me?

 

You should've put more time into the application rather than blaming Thai employee's

and everyone else.

 

FWIW, when an Aussie provides financial support for the applicant, the decision to grant

or refuse is reviewed by an Aussie member of staff.

 

That's not to say mistakes don't happen, but by and large it's an easy process with a high grant rate. 

Edited January 13, 2019 by Will27

[Dap]

I would consider this IO's offer an incredibly kind gesture. That mere 500 baht saved you another days time and gas

and the time he spent dealing with the photo's (printing out and placing in the file) was easily worth the money. I do

not consider this corruption at all. Almost anywhere else you would not have been afforded this kindness. Good for

you.

[holy cow cm]

500 is welcomed to not travel to do a repeat visit that you only go to hand in photos. As long as the job is done that is.