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Report: Successful retirement extension using monthly income, no consul letter


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2 hours ago, sletraveler said:

Good to read this.
Was at the Lamphun immigration office today. Yes they have one here now. The kind lady informed us that indeed 800,000 in the bank was now the only way to go for the retirement visa. emoji854.png


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

Well she was not up to date was she, funny how officers can be excused for this but the expat is expected to get it right or off you go!

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4 hours ago, LawrenceN said:

As usual, ubonjoe is correct. I did not save a copy of the letter. I walked straight from the mall back to the IO's counter. To me, it was nonsensical administrivia. Why verify my balance when monthly deposits are what matters? The only answer is that that's what the rules demand. AFAIK, they would have accepted the letter if my balance was ten baht. The banks don't know about verifying monthly income, just standing balance.

A person would need both for the combination method so maybe IO was confused as to what was needed since it's so new? 

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3 hours ago, DogNo1 said:

Fidelity does free Swift transfers and Mapguy says that USAA does also.  I haven't been able to confirm that with USAA yet.  They charged me $45, perhaps improperly.  What I know is free with USAA is domestic transfers but that option goes away on April 1st with Bangkok Bank's policy of only accepting IAT transfers after that.  Bangkok Bank says that after that date, ordinary ACH transfers will be returned.

It appears that there is some confusion when speaking about 'transfers'

 

A lot of folks seem to use the word 'transfer' to describe two very different things:

 

In the U.S., the domestic ACH (Automated Clearing House) is a 'batch' (all transactions grouped together and 'posted' to accounts once per day) system that was designed years ago to 'clear' checks among member banks. It is now also widely used for payroll (employer's bank makes an ACH debit from it's account at Bank 1 for credit to it's employee's account at Bank 2 for employee's net pay) payments for retirement benefits such as U.S. Social Security or military pensions, individual's paying routine bills, and also to 'transfer' money from one's account at Bank A to one's account at Bank B.

 

In general, ACH 'transfers' are almost always free, although I do have an account with a piss-ant local bank that would charge me USD 3 if I made an ACH 'transfer' from that account to another bank.

 

Because the ACH system is a batch system that does its thing once per day, it's currently not possible to execute a transaction immediately (although that is being addressed by banks who are members of the Zelle network); at best, one can 'transfer' money in one day (overnight) (Citibank, in limited amounts) to 3 days (most other banks and brokerages).

 

Because most ACH transactions are scheduled for 3 days, an ACH transaction can be 'recalled' by the originator if there is an error and that is fairly common when using the ACH system for payroll.

 

The ACH system is only available to U.S. banks and institutions who are members of the system, which in practice is most of them - that system can't be used internationally.

 

The way Bangkok Bank uses the ACH system with it's New York branch (a commercial bank which is not a retail bank offering banking service to individuals) is for folks to make an ACH transfer to BB NY using the ACH bank routing number for BB NY and the the actual account number for the BB account in Thailand; when BB receives the ACH transfer, it simply credits the transfer to the individual's account at BB Thailand.

 

From an individual's perspective, it's effectively an ACH transfer with a minimal fee.

 

The other thing that the word 'transfer' gets used for is an actual real-time, one-off transfer using the SWIFT system.

 

The SWIFT system is a world-wide system that does not 'batch' it's transactions, so transfers happen in real-time. Of course, because it doesn't 'batch' transactions, operates world-wide, sometimes with intermediary banks, and transfers are unlikely to be able to be 'recalled' if there's an error, the costs of a transfer are much higher.

 

AFAIK, no bank or brokerage does SWIFT transfers for free unless one has, for example, 'private banking' (Chase) status, i.e., a high net worth and even then, Chase only waives the fee on a few transfers each month.

 

It's unlikely that USAA charged you improperly if you made a SWIFT transfer, even if it was a domestic transfer.

 

Also, the ability to use the ACH system for transfers to Bangkok Bank NY for onward credit to an individual account at BB Thailand isn't going away - it's simply that the U.S. ACH originator needs to code the credit in compliance with the IAT format.

 

It's my understanding that, for example, U.S. Social Security will do that.

 

However, one drawback for not having ALL ACH credits conforming to the IAT format is that it will be problematic for folks who want to keep a portion of their pension in the U.S., i.e, originate their own ACH transfer from another bank that receives their entire pension credit to BB NY

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3 hours ago, sletraveler said:

Good to read this.
Was at the Lamphun immigration office today. Yes they have one here now. The kind lady informed us that indeed 800,000 in the bank was now the only way to go for the retirement visa. emoji854.png


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

AAAAGH! Which was is it? Many folks here are sharing their success with the written rule for 65,000 monthly transfer yet you make this statement. Maybe the rules haven't "jelled" enough with all TI?

 

Also, I'm not sure if I read where anyone used the combo method. What is needed for that? For instance, I don't want to deposit 800,000 in a bank over there (but might to make life easier). I plan on spending far less than 65,000 a month and don't want the remained that's not spent to sit there and accumulate as for the same reason I don't want to 800,000 in a bank. US citizens are required to report to the govt any account(s) with over $10,000 US dollars in it overseas. By spending less than the 65,000 per month it'll grow to over $10,000(US) quickly. I am not interested in transferring the excess out of the country for personal reasons.  

 

What is truly needed for the combo option if known? Thanks!

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8 hours ago, HuskerDo said:

AAAAGH! Which was is it? Many folks here are sharing their success with the written rule for 65,000 monthly transfer yet you make this statement. Maybe the rules haven't "jelled" enough with all TI?

 

Also, I'm not sure if I read where anyone used the combo method. What is needed for that? For instance, I don't want to deposit 800,000 in a bank over there (but might to make life easier). I plan on spending far less than 65,000 a month and don't want the remained that's not spent to sit there and accumulate as for the same reason I don't want to 800,000 in a bank. US citizens are required to report to the govt any account(s) with over $10,000 US dollars in it overseas. By spending less than the 65,000 per month it'll grow to over $10,000(US) quickly. I am not interested in transferring the excess out of the country for personal reasons.  

 

What is truly needed for the combo option if known? Thanks!

https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_22

If it doesn't appear in English, change the language at top right.

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54 minutes ago, LawrenceN said:

https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_22

If it doesn't appear in English, change the language at top right.

Thank you Lawrence. If I understand #5 (below) then I'd be allowed to have 200,000 in the bank there and have statements showing a transfer of 50,000 baht a month? Even if I took withdrawals from the account throughout the year all they'd focus on is that I deposited from overseas an amount totaling 600,000 baht for the entire year and that the 200,000 baht wasn't touched thus the 800,000 threshold is met? Sorry but this is a little confusing. Thanks Lawrence!

 

(5) Must have an annual earning and funds deposited with a bank totaling no less than Baht
800,000 as of the filing date.

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With the combo method one could get into a mess if your deposit amount were used/fluctuated during the year... transfers into the country to replenish the deposit amount before the 3 month seasoning would probably not be considered part of the monthly income portion transferred in any should be easily separated for Immigration to account for...

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If I understand this correctly, ACH transfers (non-IAT transfers) from the US thru NY branch to Bangkok Bank Thailand will be honored UNTIL April 1. I did one a few days ago and it went through.

 

Like the poster above, I too, need to transfer 200K baht into my Bangkok Bank account and assume I can do these non-IAT transfers again in February and/or March. Would rather not send a wire. Is this still do-able for the next few months? Seems like it should be.

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13 hours ago, wgdanson said:

Thanks Joe, exactly what I am doing except I am transferring £1000 per month (Bht 41000 ish) every month, and will have the extra Bht 320k in my Foreign Currency Account, obviously from UK and can be proved. Sound feasible?

It seems feasible to me. Just watch the exchange rates and total up what you have brought in 3 months before you apply to insure it totals to 800k baht on the date your apply.

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15 hours ago, wgdanson said:

I was planning on downloading a statement every month, highlighting the Foreign deposits, printing them out, getting them stamped by Bkk Bank,  and taking 12 of them to Immigration in December. Anyone see any problems please, as this month's one will be 11 months old in December.

Based on what we know so far, that should be workable - though the bank-statement will likely need to be printed out by your bank.  Though, UJ pointed out, if you have a legible bank-book showing all the transfers (no printing-errors and missing-data, like mine), that would probably work also. 

 

15 hours ago, JimGant said:

It wouldn't make sense for them to ask for pension proof, when your source of cash can be so many other channels

It would certainly make honest, in-person applications impossible for those of us who get money from income-streams other than a "pension."  Whether your local office/IO is interested in honesty or agent-money varies by location and extension-type being requested.

 

13 hours ago, Kalasin Jo said:

never a problem with the 800/400 k baht in the bank.

This thread / issue only affects the income-method.  If you are using the "money in the bank" method, nothing has changed, and you can ignore all this hubub about "embassy letters," "funds origin," and "proving income."  Just keep doing what you have been doing, show seasoned money, and you will be fine.

Edited by JackThompson
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15 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

You can print out a statement on Bangkok Banks online banking. I have already done it from August to January and printed it to a PDF to save it for printing later (it is in a folder backed up on Google drive). I also highlight the transfers using Adobe Acrobat. This for my extension due in August. Good since I can back it up with my bank book. Next one will be from February onwards to do July.

I also print out statements on Bangkok Bank online banking every month and highlight the relevant transfers. Do these statements need to be stamped by the Bank ?

Edited by Rambo
spelling error
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4 minutes ago, Rambo said:

I also print out statements on Bangkok Bank online banking every month and highlight the relevant transfers. Do these statements need to be stamped by the Bank ?

I don't know if they will need be stamped or not or if the bank would stamp them.I am doing them now in preparation for when I may need them.

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36 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

I will be asking the bank about a statement for a year and get one shortly before I apply if possible. I understand they have to be requested from Bangkok and there is small fee for it.

My bank book is updated every month at the bank when I transfer my funds to a another account after it comes in. I have to do it that way since it is a direct deposit account set up for my SS payments. No printing errors in it.

And that fee should be Bt200 based on what I think Google Translate says regarding a Bangkok Bank statement fee for a 6 to 24 month statement (unfortunately many of Bangkok Bank's fee schedules are only in Thai).  Ditto for getting a statement at K-bank whose fee schedule is in English....Bt200 for a 6 to 24 months. 

 

Bangkok Bank

image.png.671eee19fd525685fa74917a22d55172.png

 

K-bank.

image.png.86f0af81fbafffbb40e42bfc38e992cb.png

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38 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

I don't know if they will need be stamped or not or if the bank would stamp them.I am doing them now in preparation for when I may need them.

May be a good idea to get each one stamped by the bank, each month, with a date on, whether needed or not cannot do any harm.

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2 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

It seems feasible to me. Just watch the exchange rates and total up what you have brought in 3 months before you apply to insure it totals to 800k baht on the date your apply.

Does the combination method NOT NEED seasoning, only be in the bank on the day of application?

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28 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

Does the combination method NOT NEED seasoning, only be in the bank on the day of application?

The written rules do not state the money has to be in the bank for any amount of time but most immigration offices now insist on it being in the bank for 3 months or 60 days if it is your first extension application.

They have done that since many people were using a small amount of income to avoid having it in the bank for 3 months.

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4 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

The written rules do not state the money has to be in the bank for any amount of time but most immigration offices now insist on it being in the bank for 3 months or 60 days if it is your first extension application.

They have done that since many people were using a small amount of income to avoid having it in the bank for 3 months.

Thanks Joe. Unfortunatley! one of my pension policies only pays out on 1st Jan, so £6000 (Bht 240,000) was trasferred to my Foreign Currency Account on that day. I can show where it came from. But of course, some of that will be used as the year goes on. I am hoping that my friendly IO will take that as a foreign transfer into Thailand, plus 40k a month, and I shall top up to 800k in July. Yeh or nay? Anyone any ideas please?

Edited by wgdanson
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The written rules do not state the money has to be in the bank for any amount of time but most immigration offices now insist on it being in the bank for 3 months or 60 days if it is your first extension application.
They have done that since many people were using a small amount of income to avoid having it in the bank for 3 months.
if its your first extension application you could have "retired" for less than 12 months so not have 12 x whatever baht + seasoned amount. Do they still expect it to add up to 800k even if less than a year?

Income method new applications seems to allow for less than 12 months maybe even a few months
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1 minute ago, scubascuba3 said:

if its your first extension application you could have "retired" for less than 12 months so not have 12 x whatever baht + seasoned amount. Do they still expect it to add up to 800k even if less than a year?

Income method new applications seems to allow for less than 12 months maybe even a few months

I would imagine just for this year, then 12 months no arguing.

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1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

I will be asking the bank about a statement for a year and get one shortly before I apply if possible. I understand they have to be requested from Bangkok and there is small fee for it.

My bank book is updated every month at the bank when I transfer my funds to a another account after it comes in. I have to do it that way since it is a direct deposit account set up for my SS payments. No printing errors in it.

"I will be asking the bank about a statement for a year and get one shortly before I apply if possible."

 

Which Thai bank do you use?

 

The lady I spoke to at SCB kept going on about coming into the bank to get 3 month statements, but she clearly had no idea of the problems to which I was referring - and even less interest.....

 

But when I kept asking 'are 6 month statements possible?' - I left with no idea as to whether or not they are possible (????) - but she did say that statements would cost 200 bht.  So presumably that is for a 6 month statement?

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4 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Which Thai bank do you use?

Bangkok Bank

Not sure about SBC but other banks do not charge a fee for less than 6 months. Info is from the post.

52 minutes ago, Pib said:

And that fee should be Bt200 based on what I think Google Translate says regarding a Bangkok Bank statement fee for a 6 to 24 month statement (unfortunately many of Bangkok Bank's fee schedules are only in Thai).  Ditto for getting a statement at K-bank whose fee schedule is in English....Bt200 for a 6 to 24 months. 

 

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On 1/16/2019 at 6:51 AM, LawrenceN said:

Actually transfers every month from two sources, which, combined, exceeded 65,000. Same difference.

Thanks. I supposed this would be the case, but happy to have it confirmed.
My (not yet) wife thinks it would be best to move to either Chiang Mai or Mae Hong Son, so doubly welcome news.

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1 minute ago, ubonjoe said:

Bangkok Bank

Not sure about SBC but other banks do not charge a fee for less than 6 months. Info is from the post.

 

If one has a Bangkok Bank account, it seems to be pretty easy - which is why I'm more interested in other banks' policies, as not all of us bank with Bangkok Bank.

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2 hours ago, JackThompson said:

It would certainly make honest, in-person applications impossible for those of us who get money from income-streams other than a "pension."  Whether your local office/IO is interested in honesty or agent-money varies by location and extension-type being requested.

But you have said on similar topics that it is an 'honest' thing to to do to send the entire or most of your monthly deposit back to your originating country for re-deposit the following month so who knows?

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31 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

But you have said on similar topics that it is an 'honest' thing to to do to send the entire or most of your monthly deposit back to your originating country for re-deposit the following month so who knows?

I never said it was honest to re-send the same money. 

 

I said that many with passport-country expenses from their gross income would need to send money back to cover those expenses.

 

I also said those who don't have the required income (fakers) are likely to do this (though it would not be honest) - and be more likely to do this vs lying on an embassy-affidavit, which could get them a felony-charge in their passport-country.

 

But, in both cases  - whether legitimate (have the required gross-income) or illegitimate (don't earn enough) - they may just pay off immigration via agents to avoid the hassles involved.  I think that moving as many applicants to agents as possible was the goal of immigration creating issues over the embassy-letters in the first place.

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18 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

I never said it was honest to re-send the same money. 

 

I said that many with passport-country expenses from their gross income would need to send money back to cover those expenses.

You think to send money ex-Thailand to be deposited in Thailand and then turn around and send any or all of it back to the source country for whatever reason is 'honest'? Maybe you can say there is no rule against it today but that is as of today.

 

And I have noted your agent-centric view of the universe before. I have no idea the numbers but I think there is a reasonable component of those who spend legitimately more than 40K/65K baht every month.

Edited by JLCrab
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17 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

You think to send money ex-Thailand to be deposited in Thailand and then turn around and send any or all of it back to the source country for whatever reason is 'honest'? Maybe you can say there is no rule against it today but that is as of today.

Yes.  The rules say "income".  If you have to pay a mortgage elsewhere, or taxes, or other expenses, that is paid out of one's "income."  The rules never stated one had to "spend 65K+ / mo every month" to qualify for a retirement-extension.

 

Many will not burn all their passport-country bridges, since Thailand gives no more than a 1-year assurance of permitted-stay for retirees, or any foreigner here not taking a job from a Thai; we have no option of PR, Citizenship, etc - ever.  Keeping that bridge up costs money.  That money is spent from our incomes. 

 

As well, some may want to continue building a non-Thai investment portfolio, by keeping their Thai overhead low (a big selling-point of living here in the first place), and re-investing their profits.

 

Quote

And I have noted your agent-centric view of the universe before. I have no idea the numbers but I think there is a reasonable component of those who spend legitimately more than 40K/65K baht every month.

I do not think it is a coincidence that each "crackdown" (ED Visas, unobtainable Landlord-docs, now this embassy-letter business), just happens to drive people to agents or other payoff systems. 

 

If immigration gave a flip about the "honesty" of applications, they would not have a Baht-Bricked-Road leading to an "easy / no-hassle" fraudulent workaround - advertised in public - with the head of the dept making absurd excuses for how this system manages to operate.

 

If there is a "crackdown" on people paying home-country expenses from their qualifying-incomes, while the agent-system remains in operation, then the only function would be to increase money put into the agent-immigration pipeline - more of the same.

Edited by JackThompson
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I just did my extension and multi re-entry 10 mins ago at Aranyaprathet with final Stat Dec from Oz Embassy , took just under 30 minutes from the time I handed all the paperwork and passport to the IO and back in my hands.Very impressed by service however the "No Tip" sign made me baulked from rewarding him.

Sent from my Redmi Note 6 Pro using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

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