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Brexit bedlam - May's EU divorce deal crushed by 230 votes in parliament


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1 minute ago, nauseus said:

If we had adopted the Euro then that would have been the end.

 

It has screwed Greece and Italy but you don't mention that.

Heaven forbid a Remainer would criticize Valhalla.

Better to ignore/accept their problems and continue with PF.

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2 minutes ago, nauseus said:

If we had adopted the Euro then that would have been the end.

 

It has screwed Greece and Italy but you don't mention that.

The Euro has been good for Germany, The Netherlands, Finland, France...

Please provide proof why it would have been bad for the UK. Or is the UK economy more like those of Italy and Greece?

 

 

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15 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

Wouldn't bother me in the slightest if leavers still wanted to leave after a vote ... they are a dying breed, quite literally.

 

 

 

 But these people support remain. Could it be that they are Not concerned with the future of the younger generation. While many of the older Brixateers do have children and grandchildren. And therefore they Do worry for the future of their offsprings, and that is one of the reasons they support the U.K leaving this so called Union.

 

 

4B63119A-03F2-47BE-B7EB-DF12CB02C052.jpeg

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20 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

The Euro has been good for Germany, The Netherlands, Finland, France...

Please provide proof why it would have been bad for the UK. Or is the UK economy more like those of Italy and Greece?

 

 

Wrong question. Question should be why hasn't the euro been good for all member states? 

Isn't the mantra  "We are all in this together."

 

"In truth, the euro is the most dysfunctional currency ever created – the gold standard of the 1930s, but worse. With its toxic mixture of depression, stalled growth, financial chaos and mass unemployment, its only real achievement is to erase a generation of economic progress. Jean-Claude Juncker might want to toast that – but it is unlikely many other people will join him."

 

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/01/the-euro-is-the-most-dysfunctional-currency-ever-created/

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1 hour ago, whatsupdoc said:

The Euro has been good for Germany, The Netherlands, Finland, France...

Please provide proof why it would have been bad for the UK. Or is the UK economy more like those of Italy and Greece?

 

 

The Euro has been good for Germany, The Netherlands, Finland, France?...and Germany. 

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3 hours ago, evadgib said:

As you insist, here goes;

 

Underdogs facing overwhelming odds banded together & found themselves on the winning side as a result of their dogged persistence. In 1940 it was Mainwaring & Co. In the 21st C they have been replaced by hundreds of thousands of like minded people against a rather different opposition but two things remain constant:

 

a) They're again somewhat surprisingly on the winning side &

b  ) The activities of their opposition is having a similar effect on their resolve and numbers. Your side are making this happen and thankfully it's working!????

 

Mainwaring summed it up is his own pompous & fictional way by saying "There are men like these up and down the country; They* don't stand a chance!"

 

(*His enemy; which you'll note I deliberately haven't spelled out in clear in order not to distract from my actual point).

 Ah, I see.

 

When I asked

On ‎1‎/‎20‎/‎2019 at 1:44 PM, 7by7 said:

Are you seriously comparing the EU to the WW2 Wehrmacht and Rees-Mogg and his ilk to all that stands between us and a sort of Nazi dictatorship?

I admit to being facetious.

 

But now I see that you are seriously making that comparison!

 

In 1940, Churchill's War Cabinet declared

Quote

France and Great Britain shall no longer be two nations, but one Franco-British Union. The constitution of the Union will provide for joint organs of defence, foreign, financial and economic policies. Every citizen of France will enjoy immediately citizenship of Great Britain, every British subject will become a citizen of France. (Source)

Churchill's belief in a unified Europe is well known, he made speeches on the subject both before and after the war. The most famous one being his Zurich speech in 1946, which many cite as the inspiration for what is now the EU.

 

As you may already know, in that speech he did not envisage the UK being part of that unified Europe, due to his belief in a triumvirate of world powers; the British Empire and Commonwealth, the USA and a United Europe. But in the 1950s and 60s, with the decline of the British Empire, he changed his mind on that.

Quote

In these circumstances, Britain could only continue playing the role in the world that Churchill had envisaged by joining the European Community. Churchill himself recognised this fact in a letter to his constituency chairman in August 1961, in which he declared, "I think that the Government are right to apply to join the European Economic Community." (Source)

 

So, I will see your bunch of actors reciting from a script which had absolutely nothing to do with the EEC as it was then nor the EU as it is now, and raise you one war time leader.

 

 

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On 1/20/2019 at 3:09 PM, nontabury said:

Good point,perhaps we don’t possess any forward looking business people.

 But to go back to my original post, why are E.U official therefore threatening our ability to obtain these products? Couple this with reports stating that France will, in the event of Brexit,try and make it very difficult to transit through France.

Threats, Threats,Threats keep being sent from the E.U. Are they so thick,that they do not understand, that their attitude is now making more remainers switch to supporting Brexit.

what reports? its news to me,i dont see calais closing down with a hard or soft brexit

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3 hours ago, nauseus said:

If we had adopted the Euro then that would have been the end.

 

It has screwed Greece and Italy but you don't mention that.

total BS if we joined the euro the pound would of entered at a rate somewhere between €1.5 to €1.60 or in Baht terms you would be getting 56-57bt/£ as i type this,instead its 40,just imagine all that money saved over the years going back into the UK economy/populations/expats pockets,the figure probably wouldnt fit on the side of a double decker,maybe a intercity 125,greece fiddled its books to join the euro and totally deserved what it got,utter greed,not sure why you think its screwed Italy but they wont be going back to the Lira or leaving the EU anytime soon.

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3 hours ago, aright said:

Wrong question. Question should be why hasn't the euro been good for all member states? 

Isn't the mantra  "We are all in this together."

 

"In truth, the euro is the most dysfunctional currency ever created – the gold standard of the 1930s, but worse. With its toxic mixture of depression, stalled growth, financial chaos and mass unemployment, its only real achievement is to erase a generation of economic progress. Jean-Claude Juncker might want to toast that – but it is unlikely many other people will join him."

 

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/01/the-euro-is-the-most-dysfunctional-currency-ever-created/

the euro kicks the pounds arse,the pound is 30% DOWN on its all time high and has been even further down and its likely get worse,even if things were to get really bad the markets wont let the euro fail simply because its to big to fail,the pound is just a minor nuisance of failed currency,a bit like the country. 

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2 hours ago, nauseus said:

The Euro has been good for Germany, The Netherlands, Finland, France?...and Germany. 

5 nations all prospering and enjoying a better standard of living than the UKs,and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

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11 minutes ago, bomber said:
2 hours ago, nauseus said:

The Euro has been good for Germany, The Netherlands, Finland, France?...and Germany. 

5 nations all prospering and enjoying a better standard of living than the UKs,and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

Germany just about stayed out of technical recession this month. Here are a few snippets from very recent press about the Eurozone economy. Not exactly firing on all cylinders is it! 

 

This is from the Guardian:

"The European commission’s economic sentiment indicator fell in every single month of 2018 and in December declines in all four of the eurozone’s big four economies – Germany, France, Italy and Spain."

 

And from The Irish Examiner:

"Eurozone recession fears on the rise"

 

And from Bloomberg:

"A slump in Germany has repercussions for the euro area, where separate numbers on Tuesday showed economic confidence has fallen to the lowest in almost two years."

 

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17 minutes ago, bomber said:

5 nations all prospering and enjoying a better standard of living than the UKs,and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

 Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Norway and Switzerland. 5 nations all prospering and enjoying a good standard of living without the need for the EU.

 

Italy, Greece, Spain, Portugal, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia etc...……..I need say no more. 

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48 minutes ago, bomber said:

total BS if we joined the euro the pound would of entered at a rate somewhere between €1.5 to €1.60 or in Baht terms you would be getting 56-57bt/£ as i type this,instead its 40,just imagine all that money saved over the years going back into the UK economy/populations/expats pockets,the figure probably wouldnt fit on the side of a double decker,maybe a intercity 125,greece fiddled its books to join the euro and totally deserved what it got,utter greed,not sure why you think its screwed Italy but they wont be going back to the Lira or leaving the EU anytime soon.

You immediately go to the value of the baht. Says it all. You have no idea what I'm talking about. 

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11 minutes ago, aright said:

 Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Norway and Switzerland. 5 nations all prospering and enjoying a good standard of living without the need for the EU.

 

Italy, Greece, Spain, Portugal, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia etc...……..I need say no more. 

you cherry picked 5 of the top nations their alright,australia is awash with valueable minerals and resources,norway with oil,canada similar to australia,switzerland has been wealthy for 100s of years and still is sort of in the EU,new zealand so so,non of these nations have the UKs goverments amount of debt or household debt or a benefit scrounging society,and the UK will NEVER get near them,funny though australia and canada have huge numbers of working immigrants,something leave voters insist is destroying the UK,Italy should not be in the group of minnows,iam pretty sure the average italian is better off than the average brit,the list of minnows you are mocking but most are still finding their feet after communism and are still catching the UK up quickly,spain and portugal are not the poor nations you are making out ,my partner is portuguese and is better off than most people her age in the UK,and the spanish are better off than the portuguese so dont look into the youth unemployment figures too much,and btw those figures are falling slowly and steadily,ive read several times in the last few weeks that its only consumer spending can keep the economy from crashing,that is only going to increase the household debt which is still rising even further,the outlook is bleak even before brexit

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30 minutes ago, nauseus said:

You immediately go to the value of the baht. Says it all. You have no idea what I'm talking about. 

you said if we had joined the euro that it would of been the end,perhaps you can explain ,the end of what? sounds like an early version of project fear to me, i merely stated what the pound would of been worth on entry and this being a thailand based forum used it as an example to what the pound would of been equal to today to keep it nice and simple for you,i could of used the zimbabwean dollar instead????  so was it the end for france,belguim,holland,luxembourg,germany,italy,spain,france, i remember speaking to nationals from these countries and other than prices been rounded up a touch at first they seemed happy enough with it,its also remained a robust currency unlike the donald ducked pound

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5 hours ago, nontabury said:

 

 But these people support remain. Could it be that they are Not concerned with the future of the younger generation. While many of the older Brixateers do have children and grandchildren. And therefore they Do worry for the future of their offsprings, and that is one of the reasons they support the U.K leaving this so called Union.

 

 

4B63119A-03F2-47BE-B7EB-DF12CB02C052.jpeg

You fail to include the 16m plus, many of whom do have children, and the younger generation who overwhelmingly reject Brexit.

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5 hours ago, nauseus said:

If we had adopted the Euro then that would have been the end.

 

It has screwed Greece and Italy but you don't mention that.

I don’t mention it because we never joined ... and yet Brexiteers on here always imply that the UK no longer has any decion making authority ... which is of course patently untrue. Many countries in Northern Europe have done well under the Euro ... the weaker ones not so well. Perhaps they should have not joined?

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1 hour ago, AlexRich said:

You fail to include the 16m plus, many of whom do have children, and the younger generation who overwhelmingly reject Brexit.

The majority of the younger generation rejected Brexit because they didn't have any life experience yet. They were heavily influenced by pro-EU teachers and lecturers and hadn't had time to form their own opinions. Who still holds the same political views they held as an 18 year old? We live and learn as they say...

Many youngsters were under the false premise that once we have left the EU we won't be able to travel or work in Europe. They didn't realise that we travelled around Europe quite easily before the EU project came about. 

They don't remember the UK being a true sovereign state, following rules made only by our own governing institutions. That concept was alien to them. 

They were generally more susceptible to project fear stories. I mean, they had still believed in the tooth fairy 10 years prior. 

 

But I've noticed a bit of a shift with the younger generation, listening to radio phone ins, and on TV etc. Perhaps because they've had 2.5 years to better understand the reasons for Brexit, and the shortfalls of the EU, and because many of the project fear lies have since been exposed. I don't think these youngsters would offer the Remain camp as big a swing in the vote as they had hoped. 

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1 hour ago, AlexRich said:

I don’t mention it because we never joined ... and yet Brexiteers on here always imply that the UK no longer has any decion making authority ... which is of course patently untrue. Many countries in Northern Europe have done well under the Euro ... the weaker ones not so well. Perhaps they should have not joined?

A single currency without complete fiscal harmonisation was always a crazy idea. It was always going to produce big winners (well, Germany) and big losers.

 

Anyway, the Eurozone is now teetering on the brink of recession. That might focus the EU's minds on giving the UK some concessions on the withdrawal agreement. 

 

 

 

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43 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

The majority of the younger generation rejected Brexit because they didn't have any life experience yet. They were heavily influenced by pro-EU teachers and lecturers and hadn't had time to form their own opinions. Who still holds the same political views they held as an 18 year old? We live and learn as they say...

Many youngsters were under the false premise that once we have left the EU we won't be able to travel or work in Europe. They didn't realise that we travelled around Europe quite easily before the EU project came about. 

They don't remember the UK being a true sovereign state, following rules made only by our own governing institutions. That concept was alien to them. 

They were generally more susceptible to project fear stories. I mean, they had still believed in the tooth fairy 10 years prior. 

 

But I've noticed a bit of a shift with the younger generation, listening to radio phone ins, and on TV etc. Perhaps because they've had 2.5 years to better understand the reasons for Brexit, and the shortfalls of the EU, and because many of the project fear lies have since been exposed. I don't think these youngsters would offer the Remain camp as big a swing in the vote as they had hoped. 

I haven't noticed any shift ... tv programmes need to be balanced, so they have both views aired, as do radio shows.

 

 

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8 hours ago, nontabury said:

 

 But these people support remain. Could it be that they are Not concerned with the future of the younger generation. While many of the older Brixateers do have children and grandchildren. And therefore they Do worry for the future of their offsprings, and that is one of the reasons they support the U.K leaving this so called Union.

 

 

4B63119A-03F2-47BE-B7EB-DF12CB02C052.jpeg

So that's 6 government leaders from 28 in the EU, I EU (not EC) president, and a Scottish first minister (not PM), and Scotland doesn't have separate membership to the EU, it's part of the UK.

 

So apart from amateurishly attempting to skew the facts, what does the fact that less than a quarter of EU heads of government don't have children, prove exactly?

 

Or are we just supposed to look at the pictures and say, "Whooo!".

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On 1/17/2019 at 8:04 AM, melvinmelvin said:

guys,

stop pissing into the past - look ahead

What should Blighty do now?

 

may-deal disappeared in the loo (pt)

TM survived the non conf  (alas in my view)

 

Yesterday Barnier said that it might be possible to go back an alter the deal.

France and Germany sent unofficial signals that they might agree to push the Brexit date to March 2020.

 

new scenarios and new possibilities may creep above the horizon

 

what agendas should be set?

 

to revert to Plan-B for a while;

 

As I understand it, May has devised a Plan-B, even without Corbyn's help.

 

She has picked Plan-A out of the dust bin and wants to introduce a time limit on the Backstop if ever triggered.

She has held talks with politicians re this and presumably other ideas also.

 

Parliament has debated the plan, not very enthusiastic as I gather.

She has held further talks.

Soon off to Brussels.

More debate on Plan-B and vote tentatively scheduled for next week.

 

Any prospect of luck in these endeavours?

 

Barnier says deal on the table is the best ever.

Polish PM has aired that a time limit might be put on the Backstop.

(note, any fixes to the deal require all 28 EU members agreeing)

Mr Dahlberg, the Minister for EU matters in the brand new Swedish government says; NO, no limit on the backstop.

 

 

So,

what now?

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, AlexRich said:

I don’t mention it because we never joined ... and yet Brexiteers on here always imply that the UK no longer has any decion making authority ... which is of course patently untrue. Many countries in Northern Europe have done well under the Euro ... the weaker ones not so well. Perhaps they should have not joined?

I wasn't implying anything except that you didn't mention Greece and Italy as you worshipped the Euro. 

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5 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

A single currency without complete fiscal harmonisation was always a crazy idea. It was always going to produce big winners (well, Germany) and big losers.

 

Anyway, the Eurozone is now teetering on the brink of recession. That might focus the EU's minds on giving the UK some concessions on the withdrawal agreement. 

 

 

 

 

why should dire times in the Eurozone result in EU offering concession re withdrawal?

 

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7 hours ago, bomber said:

you said if we had joined the euro that it would of been the end,perhaps you can explain ,the end of what? sounds like an early version of project fear to me, i merely stated what the pound would of been worth on entry and this being a thailand based forum used it as an example to what the pound would of been equal to today to keep it nice and simple for you,i could of used the zimbabwean dollar instead????  so was it the end for france,belguim,holland,luxembourg,germany,italy,spain,france, i remember speaking to nationals from these countries and other than prices been rounded up a touch at first they seemed happy enough with it,its also remained a robust currency unlike the donald ducked pound

You are obsessed with the GBP/THB forex rate, as demonstrated in some of your previous posts.

 

As a reply to your patronising post: giving away Sterling for the Euro would be the final loss of sovereignty of the UK to the EU. Greece and Italy will find it so much harder to quit the EU than the UK because they already use the Euro. The Euro is a political currency and the ECB is a political bank, which will defend its currency before it defends many of the Europeans that use it. 

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8 hours ago, bomber said:

you cherry picked 5 of the top nations their alright,australia is awash with valueable minerals and resources,norway with oil,canada similar to australia,switzerland has been wealthy for 100s of years and still is sort of in the EU,new zealand so so,non of these nations have the UKs goverments amount of debt or household debt or a benefit scrounging society,and the UK will NEVER get near them,funny though australia and canada have huge numbers of working immigrants,something leave voters insist is destroying the UK,Italy should not be in the group of minnows,iam pretty sure the average italian is better off than the average brit,the list of minnows you are mocking but most are still finding their feet after communism and are still catching the UK up quickly,spain and portugal are not the poor nations you are making out ,my partner is portuguese and is better off than most people her age in the UK,and the spanish are better off than the portuguese so dont look into the youth unemployment figures too much,and btw those figures are falling slowly and steadily,ive read several times in the last few weeks that its only consumer spending can keep the economy from crashing,that is only going to increase the household debt which is still rising even further,the outlook is bleak even before brexit

Portugal is a sensible country. Don't worry:

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-portugal/portugal-promises-no-visas-for-britons-in-any-no-deal-brexit-idUSKCN1PB1V6

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