Brexit bedlam - May's EU divorce deal crushed by 230 votes in parliament

[7by7]

4 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Does anyone care what the DUP opinion on anything is?

Those who want the current fragile peace in that Province to continue certainly do!

 

We've already had one bomb and three other alerts in Derry and Belfast in 2019; do we really want to return to troubles?

[melvinmelvin]

7 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Nor dignified. ????

 

Time for a Stoli.

boomboom stoli- Belhaven

 

[Grouse]

Just now, 7by7 said:

Those who want the current fragile peace in that Province to continue certainly do!

 

We've already had one bomb and three other alerts in Derry and Belfast in 2019; do we really want to return to troubles?

Precisely. It ain't broke so don't fix it.

[CG1 Blue]

13 minutes ago, Grouse said:

No. Wrong. UK would not be able to negotiate new trade deals. Good.

 

The other issues relate to SM

 

It doesn't matter the actual effect of the border. Just the idea is a perfectly good excuse for sectarian violence. 

 

Just accept CU and fix Ireland and all manufacturing industry requiring JIT delivery and Tariff free access.

 

Obvious

Ok.  But if we were in the CU and not in the SM, we'd be unable to strike new trade deals, AND we'd not benefit from existing EU trade deals, right? The two seem so intertwined it's difficult to see what we'd end up with. I realise Norway have SM access, but they have to allow FOM and have to pay in. 

[7by7]

6 minutes ago, nauseus said:

And some reading comprehension lessons for you!

 

G'nite.

 

My English comprehension skills are fine; thank you.

 

It is not my fault you keep contradicting yourself.

[melvinmelvin]

8 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 Thanks for that.

 

So, essentially, Canada plus, like Norway plus, would be Brexit in name only.

 

I wonder if those Brexiteers pushing for one or the other realise this?

Norway deal is Brexit in name only. for sure

Canada? dunno - my immediate guess is much more Brexit

 

 

[7by7]

7 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Precisely. It ain't broke so don't fix it.

 But if we leave the EU without some sort of deal to maintain the lack of a border between Northern Ireland and the Republic, then it will be broke; very broke.

 

We must take the views of all parties in the Province into account and come up with an agreement which they can all agree to; including the DUP and Sinn Fein, no matter how unpalatable we find links between the DUP and the UVF and those between Sinn Fein and the PIRA to be.

[tebee]

14 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Does anyone care what the DUP opinion on anything is?

Normally not, but they seem to be able to pull TM's strings these days.....

[Grouse]

Just now, melvinmelvin said:

boomboom stoli- Belhaven

 

You frequently talk Belhaven. Horrified it was bought out by Green King! Belhaven 60/- ( ask an older Brit what the symbols mean) or 80/- on fraught. Only available in bottle now? Where can you get that in York? I went to the brewery in Dunbar but they had cancelled tours and no pub in the town sold it. When the Scots get independence they should nationalise Belhaven and provide Irn Bru free for all(made from Girders as you know)!

[CG1 Blue]

2 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 But if we leave the DEU without some sort of deal to maintain the lack of a border between Northern Ireland and the Republic, then it will be broke; very broke.

 

We must take the views of all parties in the Province into account and come up with an agreement which they can all agree to; including the DUP and Sinn Fein, no matter how unpalatable we find links between the DUP and the UVF and those between Sinn Fein and the PIRA to be.

Agreement between the DUP and Sinn Fein is just wishful thinking sadly. They can't even form a parliament. 

 

But the fact is, no party will put up a hard border under any circumstances.  The EU, the Irish and the UK have already stated this. 

[Grouse]

7 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Ok.  But if we were in the CU and not in the SM, we'd be unable to strike new trade deals, AND we'd not benefit from existing EU trade deals, right? The two seem so intertwined it's difficult to see what we'd end up with. I realise Norway have SM access, but they have to allow FOM and have to pay in. 

No, we could not negotiate trade deals independently (why would we?). We are talking CU; Norway are not in CU.

 

SM is a separate issue. We COULD align. I believe we can also negotiate freedom of movement. I see today that we have only 4.0% unemployment now! How crap are people to worry about EU immigration affecting employment? We've alienated most of them anyway! Ingurlund!

[Grouse]

19 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 Thanks for that.

 

So, essentially, Canada plus, like Norway plus, would be Brexit in name only.

 

I wonder if those Brexiteers pushing for one or the other realise this?

The referendum was to leave the EU. Norway, Switzerland, Turkey and Canada are not in the EU!

[melvinmelvin]

3 minutes ago, Grouse said:

You frequently talk Belhaven. Horrified it was bought out by Green King! Belhaven 60/- ( ask an older Brit what the symbols mean) or 80/- on fraught. Only available in bottle now? Where can you get that in York? I went to the brewery in Dunbar but they had cancelled tours and no pub in the town sold it. When the Scots get independence they should nationalise Belhaven and provide Irn Bru free for all(made from Girders as you know)!

hehe,

I got it in the wee village of Belhaven, just a bit west of Edinburgh,

caught the bus from Tollcross

a hotel we visited on Sundays, sported Belhaven and Belhaven Heavy

Heavy was my thing -pure heaven with some single malt chasers

 

you know, Scotland in the 70s - Sunday, beer ---- > Hotel

 

been to York a lot, never saw Belhaven

[Grouse]

12 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

Norway deal is Brexit in name only. for sure

Canada? dunno - my immediate guess is much more Brexit

 

 

No. Norway+ would be. Norway are not in CU

[7by7]

4 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Agreement between the DUP and Sinn Fein is just wishful thinking sadly. They can't even form a parliament. 

 

I don't mean an agreement between the DUP and Sinn Fein as such, I mean an agreement between the UK and EU which is acceptable to both; and the other NI parties.

6 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

But the fact is, no party will put up a hard border under any circumstances.  The EU, the Irish and the UK have already stated this

Unfortunately, if we do end up with no deal between the UK and EU then there will be a hard border between NI and the Republic.

[melvinmelvin]

7 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Agreement between the DUP and Sinn Fein is just wishful thinking sadly. They can't even form a parliament. 

 

But the fact is, no party will put up a hard border under any circumstances.  The EU, the Irish and the UK have already stated this. 

 

Question is, is that a wise decision?

 

[Grouse]

14 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 But if we leave the EU without some sort of deal to maintain the lack of a border between Northern Ireland and the Republic, then it will be broke; very broke.

 

We must take the views of all parties in the Province into account and come up with an agreement which they can all agree to; including the DUP and Sinn Fein, no matter how unpalatable we find links between the DUP and the UVF and those between Sinn Fein and the PIRA to be.

Just stay in CU

[melvinmelvin]

2 minutes ago, Grouse said:

No. Norway+ would be. Norway are not in CU

ok, but with Norway you get ALL the EU legal shit that UK does not seem to want.

 

+ or - CU makes no difference

 

 

[Grouse]

5 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

hehe,

I got it in the wee village of Belhaven, just a bit west of Edinburgh,

caught the bus from Tollcross

a hotel we visited on Sundays, sported Belhaven and Belhaven Heavy

Heavy was my thing -pure heaven with some single malt chasers

 

you know, Scotland in the 70s - Sunday, beer ---- > Hotel

 

been to York a lot, never saw Belhaven

Somebody here quotes York! It must be the Viking connection! Where are you camping out?

 

Back in the day, pint o' heavy and a dram of Grouse was the thing. As far as I remember!

[Grouse]

2 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

ok, but with Norway you get ALL the EU legal shit that UK does not seem to want.

 

+ or - CU makes no difference

 

 

CU fixes Ireland, automotive and Airbus! No difference? It's the key!

[Grouse]

6 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

ok, but with Norway you get ALL the EU legal shit that UK does not seem to want.

 

+ or - CU makes no difference

 

 

CU fixes Ireland, automotive and Airbus! No difference? It's the key!

 

And this is the shilling

 

http://www.scottishbrewing.com/history/shilling.php

[melvinmelvin]

3 minutes ago, Grouse said:

CU fixes Ireland, automotive and Airbus! No difference? It's the key!

right,

but it makes no difference to the legal burden, rulez will be made in Brussels (without any UK input)

and that is what UK don't appreciate

[7by7]

4 minutes ago, Grouse said:

The referendum was to leave the EU. Norway, Switzerland, Turkey and Canada are not in the EU!

Norway is in the EEA, which means it is part of the single market and subject to the four freedoms. It is a member of the Schengen area. It also pays more per head into EU coffers than the UK, but, unlike us at present, has no say in how that money is spent. In addition it is subject to most EU rules and regulations but, unlike us until we leave, has no say in the making of those rules and regulations.

 

Norway plus would mean all of that for the UK, plus membership of the customs union.

 

Switzerland is a member of EFTA, but not of the EEA. It is a member of the single market and so is subject to the four freedoms and a member of the Schengen area. It, too, pays into EU coffers without having any say in how the money is spent. This arrangement is not fixed, negotiations between the EU and Switzerland to finalise a deal have been ongoing for a number of years. It is highly unlikely that the EU would agree a similar deal with the UK

 

Canada is not in the EU. It does have a trading deal with the EU which took 7 years to negotiate; do you really want to wait another 7 years for a deal?

 

Turkey is negotiating succession to the EU; so by using them as an example are you suggesting that we revoke Article 50?

[Grouse]

Just now, melvinmelvin said:

right,

but it makes no difference to the legal burden, rulez will be made in Brussels (without any UK input)

and that is what UK don't appreciate

Trade agreements, yes.

 

But so what? I'm happy with European produce.

 

We SHOULD be negotiating a SERVICES agreement instead of messing about.

[Grouse]

2 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Norway is in the EEA, which means it is part of the single market and subject to the four freedoms. It is a member of the Schengen area. It also pays more per head into EU coffers than the UK, but, unlike us at present, has no say in how that money is spent. In addition it is subject to most EU rules and regulations but, unlike us until we leave, has no say in the making of those rules and regulations.

 

Norway plus would mean all of that for the UK, plus membership of the customs union.

 

Switzerland is a member of EFTA, but not of the EEA. It is a member of the single market and so is subject to the four freedoms and a member of the Schengen area. It, too, pays into EU coffers without having any say in how the money is spent. This arrangement is not fixed, negotiations between the EU and Switzerland to finalise a deal have been ongoing for a number of years. It is highly unlikely that the EU would agree a similar deal with the UK

 

Canada is not in the EU. It does have a trading deal with the EU which took 7 years to negotiate; do you really want to wait another 7 years for a deal?

 

Turkey is negotiating succession to the EU; so by using them as an example are you suggesting that we revoke Article 50?

How do I suck this egg?

 

We are talking CU. What is your point?

 

Brexit means British Exit from EU? None of the countries mentioned are in the EU!

 

Give the Brexiter fools what they asked for but remain in the CU and remain harmonised with SM! What's not to like?

 

I do wish people would at least TRY and understand the real issues.

 

BTW, Turkey are NOT planning succession. Do you mean ascension? Accession? I'm not the spelling police but I need to understand your point.

[Basil B]

18 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

Question is, is that a wise decision?

 

It was an important factor in the GFA, we do not want to go back to pre 1998.

 

The GFA has saved many lives, but NI is sill a very volatile powder keg, lets hope TM does not ignite it, it would be murder, to put it literally. 

 

PS. I am not Irish or have any Irish affiliations.

[Spidey]

7 minutes ago, Basil B said:

It was an important factor in the GFA, we do not want to go back to pre 1998.

 

The GFA has saved many lives, but NI is sill a very volatile powder keg, lets hope TM does not ignite it, it would be murder, to put it literally. 

 

PS. I am not Irish or have any Irish affiliations.

Maybe all this talk of the backstop has already ignited it. Bomb in Derry, the other day, is ominous.

[CG1 Blue]

48 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

I don't mean an agreement between the DUP and Sinn Fein as such, I mean an agreement between the UK and EU which is acceptable to both; and the other NI parties.

Unfortunately, if we do end up with no deal between the UK and EU then there will be a hard border between NI and the Republic.

"Unfortunately, if we do end up with no deal between the UK and EU then there will be a hard border between NI and the Republic"

 

There won't be a hard border if nobody puts one there.  And nobody is going to. 

[CG1 Blue]

18 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Maybe all this talk of the backstop has already ignited it. Bomb in Derry, the other day, is ominous.

I think we need to be careful not to link the Derry incident to Brexit. This is from the Irish Times; a media source who would be more than happy to blame it on Brexit: 

 

So-called “dissident” republicans reject the Belfast Agreement, and advocate the use of violence to achieve their aim of a united Ireland.In a statement, dissident republican political party Saoradh linked the attack to the 100th anniversary, on Monday, of the Soloheadbeg ambush, which marked the beginning of the War of Independence.“Sean Treacy and his comrades struck a historic blow against the Crown forces in Tipperary,” the statement said. “It seems 100 years later Volunteer Sean Treacy’s comrades continue the unfinished revolution.”

The New IRA is believed to have been responsible for a number of attacks in Derry in recent years, including an attempt to kill a police officer by planting a bomb under his car outside his home in 2017. It claimed responsibility for firing shots and throwing grenades at police during nights of disturbances in Derry last summer.

 

[7by7]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

How do I suck this egg?

 

We are talking CU. What is your point?

 

Brexit means British Exit from EU? None of the countries mentioned are in the EU!

 

Give the Brexiter fools what they asked for but remain in the CU and remain harmonised with SM! What's not to like?

 

I do wish people would at least TRY and understand the real issues

 My point being, as I said in an earlier post, that Norway plus, Switzerland plus, Canada plus even Turkey plus; in fact any deal which means accepting the four freedoms and remaining in the customs union (the 'plus') all mean that we have Brexit in name only. In which case it would be better to cancel Article 50 and remain a full member with a say in the rules we have to follow and how our contributions are spent.

 

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

BTW, Turkey are NOT planning succession. Do you mean ascension? Accession? I'm not the spelling police but I need to understand your point.

Apologies; I, of course, meant accession.