UK in deadlock over Brexit 'Plan B' as May and Corbyn tussle

[OneMoreFarang]

1 hour ago, KiChakayan said:

2 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

I agree with you.

With posts like above I always think: Is this real? Do you really believe what you write? Or are you just taking the p$#?

Are you talking to 52% of UK voters?

No. A huge part of the voters voted leave because they were fed-up with their situation. UK politicians told them since many years that the EU is to blame for almost anything. So it's no surprise that many people didn't want to be part of that EU which made life so difficult.

But that was over two years ago when people had little real and lots of wrong information. If they followed the news and events in the last two years many learned that the problem are mostly the UK politicians and not the EU. And leaving the EU in any way won't improve the situation in the UK. The UK politicians could improve it, if they wanted to do that.

Sure, the UK will survive even if they crash out. But at what price? By now people should see reality and they should see that the USA, China and other big nations won't make deals with the UK which are better than what they have now. And the UK will continue to do lots of business with the EU. The question is how? The easy way or the hard way?

Make another referendum and see if still 52% support leave. I have my doubts. At least some people listened and learned...

[evadgib]

2 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

I agree with you.

With posts like above I always think: Is this real? Do you really believe what you write? Or are you just taking the p$#?

Is the right answer ????

[evadgib]

2 hours ago, Loiner said:

At the next GE it will be time for UKIP to rise again. The current bunch of incompetents in govt and opposition have failed the British public. The electorate on both sides of the divide have had enough of them.

At the 2015 GE the results were:
CON - 36.9%
LAB - 30.4%
UKIP - 12.6%
Significant swing votes from the millions of disgruntled voters could easily sweep UKIP into power.

Unless something very odd happens, even in these uncertain times, it is unlikely to affect the current mess. But who knows what the future implications would be to what is now being rigged for the EU at Theresa’s round table?


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

The long term answer is PR and mandatory participation which is unlikely to be implemented until long after this mess gets sorted.

[Chomper Higgot]

16 minutes ago, vogie said:

The politicians by voting for article 50 were saying they wanted to leave the EU, it is law now, all parliamentary MPs agreed to leave accept the SNP. You cannot get pregnant and decide 6 months later you don't want to be.

 

I know you have trouble with the word democracy, but more voters voted out than voted in, I hope that clears this matter up, but somehow I doubt it.

 

Below is a typical remainers idea of what democracy is, but have no fear Nigel Farage soon corrected her.

 

 

Says a man arguing against a second vote.

 

I note you are keen to quote Farage but not so keen on Farage’s statement on a 52/48 vote.

[vogie]

1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Says a man arguing against a second vote.

 

I note you are keen to quote Farage but not so keen on Farage’s statement on a 52/48 vote.

We havn't implimented the first vote yet, the people that are arguing for another referendum are losers and are just trying to overturn democracy. Brexit didn't end on the 21st of June 2016 you know. 

[Jonnapat]

The good thing that a fresh people's vote would bring would be a vote based on the now known facts rather than the lies and fantasies that were brought before the British people before the 2016 vote.

This is why the latest poll on public opinion backs Remain by 12 percentage points and why delaying Brexit would be in everyone's best interests. 

Time for some common sense if that's at all possible.

[evadgib]

8 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Says a man arguing against a second vote.

 

I note you are keen to quote Farage but not so keen on Farage’s statement on a 52/48 vote.

Me too but I have no fear of a 2nd vote as the result will be the same with a much bigger margin. That is my honest opinion, as is the belief that we won't be having one.

[Snow Leopard]

How can anyone deal or trust these pair of idiots? These muppets see the Brexit as a pathway to Number 10 only. Screw the people of the UK, Screw democracy, as long as we get in power. 

 

 

[tomacht8]

3 hours ago, Cobby said:

I do not understand why all the fuss

its better to have a no deal 

as a country we can stand alone we can survive very well 

england dose not need any one else 

we import 70% more than we export 

its Europe that needs us 

German cars 

French cars

itslian cars

spanish cars 

then it’s the wine

all foods the list goes on 

a no deal means the whole world will deal with us 

imigration

we can choose who we want to come to England 

???????????????????????????? 

it’s time now to put the great back into Britten 

 

and England to rule the waves again 

Long live 

 

 

 England ???????????????????????????? 

For some Brexiteers, leaving the EU is the same as when they have in their local pub

quarreled with the owner. Then they look for a new pub. Easy. That is their entire economic knowledge and business experience.

 

Can it be that the brexit is a bit more complicated? Considering that in over 40 years, 28 countries have made millions of treaties, laws, agreements, most of which are interconnected and interwoven.

 

May had agreed an exit plan with the EU and all 27 members had agreed.

I think that now also the EU has no desire for this UK parlament monkey circus anymore.

 

 

 

 

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

For some Brexiteers, leaving the EU is the same as when they have in their local pub

quarreled with the owner. Then they look for a new pub. Easy. That is their entire economic knowledge and business experience.

 

Can it be that the brexit is a bit more complicated? Considering that in over 40 years, 28 countries have made millions of treaties, laws, agreements, most of which are interconnected and interwoven.

 

May had agreed an exit plan with the EU and all 27 members had agreed.

I think that now also the EU has no desire for this UK parlament monkey circus anymore.

 

 

 

 

I don't think that using a pub in your analogy is a wise move when you have Jean Claude Juncker in charge of the EU.????????????

[rixalex]

10 minutes ago, Jonnapat said:

The good thing that a fresh people's vote would bring would be a vote based on the now known facts rather than the lies and fantasies that were brought before the British people before the 2016 vote.

This is why the latest poll on public opinion backs Remain by 12 percentage points and why delaying Brexit would be in everyone's best interests. 

Time for some common sense if that's at all possible.

By a "people's vote" do you mean a referendum?

 

What are the "known facts" and who told you them?

 

[evadgib]

18 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

For some Brexiteers, leaving the EU is the same as when they have in their local pub

quarreled with the owner. Then they look for a new pub. Easy. That is their entire economic knowledge and business experience.

 

Can it be that the brexit is a bit more complicated? Considering that in over 40 years, 28 countries have made millions of treaties, laws, agreements, most of which are interconnected and interwoven.

 

May had agreed an exit plan with the EU and all 27 members had agreed.

I think that now also the EU has no desire for this UK parlament monkey circus anymore.

The post to which you and a dozen or more others replied or otherwise reacted to is a plant and did the trick despite the obvious flaws. It's in the interests of both sides to work out who did it & what their ultimate goal is.

I sussed the practice out years ago and it's high time the rest of you caught on.

I'll give this thread a miss.

[OneMoreFarang]

17 minutes ago, Jonnapat said:

The good thing that a fresh people's vote would bring would be a vote based on the now known facts rather than the lies and fantasies that were brought before the British people before the 2016 vote.

This is why the latest poll on public opinion backs Remain by 12 percentage points and why delaying Brexit would be in everyone's best interests. 

Time for some common sense if that's at all possible.

In principle you are right.

But it seems some people do everything to not look at facts. They want to believe whatever they believe. It's like religion, facts don't matter to many of these people. Believing is everything.

 

Many of us still think when people look at all the facts it should be obvious that leaving the EU is a bad idea - even if the EU is not perfect. But many people ignore facts. You can't win rational arguments with people like that.

[tomacht8]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

I don't think that using a pub in your analogy is a wise move when you have Jean Claude Juncker in charge of the EU.????????????

555.

It is better to have an alcoholic with a clear negotiation plan than 100th of anti alcoholics who are in a pub complaining about serving beer.

 

And if Junker really drinks regularly?

Could also be part of a defamation campaign. Proved there is nothing.

[vogie]

12 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

555.

It is better to have an alcoholic with a clear negotiation plan than 100th of anti alcoholics who are in a pub complaining about serving beer.

 

And if Junker really drinks regularly?

Could also be part of a defamation campaign. Proved there is nothing.

Do you honestly believe that JCJ doesn't have an alcohol problem, sources say he has cognac for breakfast and even tried to get the law changed so he could smoke in the buildings in Brussels.

 

 

[RuamRudy]

17 minutes ago, evadgib said:

The post to which you and a dozen or more others replied or otherwise reacted to is a plant and did the trick despite the obvious flaws. It's in the interests of both sides to work out who did it & what their ultimate goal is.

I sussed the practice out years ago and it's high time the rest of you caught on.

Or maybe, after months and months of relentless incompetence and mendacity oozing from Westminster, many of us are simply sick to the back teeth of Brexit and what it has done to us all, and are having a grim laugh at this caricature?

[vogie]

8 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Or maybe, after months and months of relentless incompetence and mendacity oozing from Westminster, many of us are simply sick to the back teeth of Brexit and what it has done to us all, and are having a grim laugh at this caricature?

How can people be sick of brexit when we have 27 ThaiVisa threads on it. Every time I post now I have to remind myself which thread I'm on.

[owl sees all]

12 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Or maybe, after months and months of relentless incompetence and mendacity oozing from Westminster, many of us are simply sick to the back teeth of Brexit and what it has done to us all, and are having a grim laugh at this caricature?

Well, you keep posting RR.

 

TVFmembers are having their say.

 

Everyone's a winner.

[welovesundaysatspace]

42 minutes ago, rixalex said:

By a "people's vote" do you mean a referendum?

 

What are the "known facts"

The pink unicorn that Boris and Jacob promised doesn’t exist. There’s only no-deal, no-Brexit and May’s deal on the table. 

 

42 minutes ago, rixalex said:

and who told you them?

Something called reality. 

[tomacht8]

22 minutes ago, vogie said:

Do you honestly believe that JCJ doesn't have an alcohol problem, sources say he has cognac for breakfast and even tried to get the law changed so he could smoke in the buildings in Brussels.

 

 

He is just a sociable guy and maybe drinks sometimes. But if Junker bothers you so much, his term ends in november 2019.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, OneMoreFarang said:

No. A huge part of the voters voted leave because they were fed-up with their situation. UK politicians told them since many years that the EU is to blame for almost anything. So it's no surprise that many people didn't want to be part of that EU which made life so difficult.

But that was over two years ago when people had little real and lots of wrong information. If they followed the news and events in the last two years many learned that the problem are mostly the UK politicians and not the EU. And leaving the EU in any way won't improve the situation in the UK. The UK politicians could improve it, if they wanted to do that.

Sure, the UK will survive even if they crash out. But at what price? By now people should see reality and they should see that the USA, China and other big nations won't make deals with the UK which are better than what they have now. And the UK will continue to do lots of business with the EU. The question is how? The easy way or the hard way?

Make another referendum and see if still 52% support leave. I have my doubts. At least some people listened and learned...

No they didn't.

[Disaantri]

Cameron was a blithering idiot not to ensure his referendum to introduce a new law/treaty or amend and existinglaw/treaty required a minimum 60/40 vote (to avoid the obvious division a closer result has caused, regardless of talk of democracy 50% of actual voters +1 is not a sensible majority) or stick to the fact that it was non binding for parliament, so that he got his way. And what did he do, blabber on TV before the event that it was binding, then slink away from the mess.

 

Brave and dutiful Theresa has sadly made a mess of the negotiations - instead of "here's Article 50, see you at the negotiations" we had the infantile and limiting red lines within the departure letter! Then we, the British media et al played out the negotiations in public whilst the EU smiled to themselves, and kept theirs simple and under wraps. Brexiters appeared to have no feasible plan of attack. Then May interferes and overrides her team. Fatal, without that plan.

 

Now with parliament locked we need LEADERSHIP, not dogged dead-end intransigence!! Extend Article 50, and devise a plan by end of year, and put to the people - as parliament is undecided (except for those who voted against the no-confidence vote to keep their jobs) - order of preference on vote form: 1) Accept plan to leave, 2) GE leave or 3) GE remain. There, simple.

 

 

 

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

14 minutes ago, Disaantri said:

Cameron was a blithering idiot not to ensure his referendum to introduce a new law/treaty or amend and existinglaw/treaty required a minimum 60/40 vote (to avoid the obvious division a closer result has caused, regardless of talk of democracy 50% of actual voters +1 is not a sensible majority) or stick to the fact that it was non binding for parliament, so that he got his way. And what did he do, blabber on TV before the event that it was binding, then slink away from the mess.

 

Brave and dutiful Theresa has sadly made a mess of the negotiations - instead of "here's Article 50, see you at the negotiations" we had the infantile and limiting red lines within the departure letter! Then we, the British media et al played out the negotiations in public whilst the EU smiled to themselves, and kept theirs simple and under wraps. Brexiters appeared to have no feasible plan of attack. Then May interferes and overrides her team. Fatal, without that plan.

 

Now with parliament locked we need LEADERSHIP, not dogged dead-end intransigence!! Extend Article 50, and devise a plan by end of year, and put to the people - as parliament is undecided (except for those who voted against the no-confidence vote to keep their jobs) - order of preference on vote form: 1) Accept plan to leave, 2) GE leave or 3) GE remain. There, simple.

 

 

 

 

 

"Cameron was a blithering idiot not to ensure his referendum to introduce a new law/treaty or amend and existinglaw/treaty required a minimum 60/40 vote (to avoid the obvious division a closer result has caused"

 

I agree with this point.  It should have been stated that, on such an important issue, a majority of 60% was required.  He made the mistake of thinking that remain would easily win the referendum result.....

 

As things turned out, leave would not have won the necessary 60% of votes, and so UKIP would have continued (bearing in mind leave won more votes than remain) - and would likely have attracted even more voters?

[NanLaew]

3 hours ago, owl sees all said:

It was a mistake JC calling a vote of 'no confidence' IMO.

Maybe he was going through the motions; a formality?

 

3 hours ago, owl sees all said:

May is saying to JC; "Look Dude, if you get your lot to support a slightly tweaked second deal, I will agree to an election. Got it!"

Unfortunately, if Corbyn ever showed a scintilla of willingness to even smile across the floor at the PM, his feet wouldn't touch the ground as Labour's NEC run him out the door. He's sh!t scared of that. He's even more concerned that 71 Labour MP's have already signed a statement supporting a call for a second referendum and suggesting they have 25 more waiting for the shoe to drop. This despite their 'leader' saying only last month that it was not going to be an option if Labour won a snap election. Some of the radical party reforms currently being considered by the NEC includes regulations that, if implemented, would probably prevent Corbyn (and other dynosaurs) even being nominated.

 

Both Conservative and Labour leaderships have issues with what the media paints as a lack of confidence from their own MP's. Both leaders are aware of how quickly their political careers could end in or rise from these Brexit ashes, but so are the MP's. It's a pity that their focus isn't on what's good for the people and delivering the will of the people rather than the rather empty claims that they are doing just that. Philip Hammond's repeated, open subterfuges are all rather intriguing. In a similar vein as the 71 + 25 dangling over Corbyn's head, some 5 Tory cabinet minsters met with the PM to say they'd walk and suggest they too have +20 mid-ranking ministers ready to do the same.

 

4 hours ago, owl sees all said:

UKIP could rise once again. The people voted to leave; not to be half-in, half-out. We are being fooled into thinking that a no-deal (leave) would be bad. It would be great to get away from the federalists-in-disguise club.

UKIP is too much damaged goods and even Farage's own, very recent actions suggests he won't touch it with the proverbial. However, ...

 

Mr Farage, who enjoyed a warm welcome, appealed his supporters to get organised and prepare for a second referendum. He also hinted that he could be tempted to try to reclaim the title of Ukip leader yet again after quitting the party in December.

 

But I agree that something very, very similar would be resurgent with the proper leadership (come back Nige!) and thorough oversight and vetting of those that sign up to do the good work needed.

[johnnybangkok]

4 hours ago, Cobby said:

I do not understand why all the fuss

its better to have a no deal 

as a country we can stand alone we can survive very well 

england dose not need any one else 

we import 70% more than we export 

its Europe that needs us 

German cars 

French cars

itslian cars

spanish cars 

then it’s the wine

all foods the list goes on 

a no deal means the whole world will deal with us 

imigration

we can choose who we want to come to England 

???????????????????????????? 

it’s time now to put the great back into Britten 

 

and England to rule the waves again 

Long live 

 

 

 England ???????????????????????????? 

I'm guessing you're not the sharpest tool in the box with your 'little England' nonsense and primary school understanding of world economics but you have demonstrated something that keeps coming up more and more these days from Brexit fans and that's your willingness to embrace a 'no deal Brexit'.

This is something that never fails to amaze me about you Leave fans. At no stage in the referendum was a 'no deal Brexit' even mentioned never mind championed but here you all are in your myopic approach to getting out of Europe at any cost that you are now actively promoting possibly the very worst scenario for the UK imaginable. Literally everyone;  politicians from all sides, economists, business leaders even the pro-Brexit media all readily admit that a no-deal Brexit would be a catastrophe for the UK but you in your little Britain bubble think it's ok because 'they need us more than we need them'. I hate to bust said bubble but they don't.

Having turned down May's Brexit deal (the one she was always likely to get) because it's not the milk and honey deal you were all promised, you would rather see the UK descend into chaos with a no-deal than admit that this was always going to be a fiasco and Brexit was never going to end up well for the UK. 

If you fancy educating yourself a bit, please read this   https://www.economist.com/leaders/2018/11/24/the-truth-about-a-no-deal-brexit and perhaps start understanding the precipice the UK is teetering on as we speak and maybe, just maybe try to become part of the solution rather than the problem.

[dick dasterdly]

18 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Maybe he was going through the motions; a formality?

 

Unfortunately, if Corbyn ever showed a scintilla of willingness to even smile across the floor at the PM, his feet wouldn't touch the ground as Labour's NEC run him out the door. He's sh!t scared of that. He's even more concerned that 71 Labour MP's have already signed a statement supporting a call for a second referendum and suggesting they have 25 more waiting for the shoe to drop. This despite their 'leader' saying only last month that it was not going to be an option if Labour won a snap election. Some of the radical party reforms currently being considered by the NEC includes regulations that, if implemented, would probably prevent Corbyn (and other dynosaurs) even being nominated.

 

Both Conservative and Labour leaderships have issues with what the media paints as a lack of confidence from their own MP's. Both leaders are aware of how quickly their political careers could end in or rise from these Brexit ashes, but so are the MP's. It's a pity that their focus isn't on what's good for the people and delivering the will of the people rather than the rather empty claims that they are doing just that. Philip Hammond's repeated, open subterfuges are all rather intriguing. In a similar vein as the 71 + 25 dangling over Corbyn's head, some 5 Tory cabinet minsters met with the PM to say they'd walk and suggest they too have +20 mid-ranking ministers ready to do the same.

 

UKIP is too much damaged goods and even Farage's own, very recent actions suggests he won't touch it with the proverbial. However, ...

 

Mr Farage, who enjoyed a warm welcome, appealed his supporters to get organised and prepare for a second referendum. He also hinted that he could be tempted to try to reclaim the title of Ukip leader yet again after quitting the party in December.

 

But I agree that something very, very similar would be resurgent with the proper leadership (come back Nige!) and thorough oversight and vetting of those that sign up to do the good work needed.

"Both Conservative and Labour leaderships have issues with what the media paints as a lack of confidence from their own MP's. Both leaders are aware of how quickly their political careers could end in or rise from these Brexit ashes, but so are the MP's. It's a pity that their focus isn't on what's good for the people and delivering the will of the people rather than the rather empty claims that they are doing just that. Philip Hammond's repeated, open subterfuges are all rather intriguing. In a similar vein as the 71 + 25 dangling over Corbyn's head, some 5 Tory cabinet minsters met with the PM to say they'd walk and suggest they too have +20 mid-ranking ministers ready to do the same."

 

Good points.

 

I posted an article from the Guardian earlier today re. the possibility of 'no deal'  brexit being stopped by soft-brexiteers.

 

This is a more up to date article from the same source.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/17/hammond-tells-business-leaders-no-deal-brexit-will-be-stopped

 

It is now proven beyond doubt (?) that remainer MPs are not only determined to stop brexit, but apparently know that the plans are already in place to do so?

[OneMoreFarang]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

Do you honestly believe that JCJ doesn't have an alcohol problem, sources say he has cognac for breakfast and even tried to get the law changed so he could smoke in the buildings in Brussels.

 

 

Looks like he had an ear infection ???? 

[OneMoreFarang]

9 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

"Both Conservative and Labour leaderships have issues with what the media paints as a lack of confidence from their own MP's. Both leaders are aware of how quickly their political careers could end in or rise from these Brexit ashes, but so are the MP's. It's a pity that their focus isn't on what's good for the people and delivering the will of the people rather than the rather empty claims that they are doing just that. Philip Hammond's repeated, open subterfuges are all rather intriguing. In a similar vein as the 71 + 25 dangling over Corbyn's head, some 5 Tory cabinet minsters met with the PM to say they'd walk and suggest they too have +20 mid-ranking ministers ready to do the same."

 

Good points.

 

I posted an article from the Guardian earlier today re. the possibility of 'no deal'  brexit being stopped by soft-brexiteers.

 

This is a more up to date article from the same source.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/17/hammond-tells-business-leaders-no-deal-brexit-will-be-stopped

I am glad I am not the only Guardian reader here.

Or to say it in ColinCaserole's words: "The best Brexit of all, is no Brexit at all."

[Loiner]

 
Most people did not vote for Brexit.
 
This is not ‘the will of the people’.

Simply not true, however often you claim it or how much you wish it were.

Wether you calculate on the Turnout, Total electorate, or Total population:
Even more ‘most’ people did not vote for Remain.


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Baerboxer]

5 hours ago, Lungstib said:

Britain has been in deadlock ever since the referendum. The politicians dont want what the people voted for and what Cameron promised. How is that fixed?

 

The politicians have chickened out of their responsibilities as elected MP's in a parliamentary democracy. They are all too scared to loose their privileged positions by upsetting their party and electorate. Their spineless betrayal of the UK Constitution, both Tory and Labor, has led to this massive mess.

 

Now they need someone with the bottle, honesty and not totally self interested to stand up and do the only sensible thins - just call Mr. Tusk, he's been brave enough to say so and will tell them what to do.