Non Imm O based on retirement + 1 year extension

[scubascuba3]

I'd like to double check because its a little unclear with the new "Income Method" for new applications.

 

Dec 18 I'll be 50, I'll convert to a Non Imm O based on retirement. I'll have a METV, about 21 days before it expires I'll complete a TM86 and apply for visa status alteration, 2000 baht 90 days from Jomtien. This sound correct?

 

about 21 days before the 90 days is up I'll complete a TM7 and apply for a year extension of stay using the Income method. This is where its a grey area to me. Its a new transitional period but reading the new rules, how many months of 65k do i need before applying?

 

If i decide on the "combined method" how many months required when i apply? and does it still need to add up to 800k even if its a new application and a shorter period?

[ubonjoe]

It is not real clear at this time how they are going to handle it at this time. 

Since you are not applying for the first step until December by applying for the non immigrant visa on or after you birthday you would be under the example for the first extension. For the first step you would only need to show one month (but 2 or 3 months would be better) of income and the money in the bank on the date you apply. They should multiply your income shown by 12 to get the annual income part of the total of 800k baht needed. You would need the required amount in the bank they determine on that day.

Then when you apply for the extension during the last 30 days of the 90 day entry from the visa or when the money has been in the bank for 60 days. And bank statements showing the income part of the income with a bank letter. 

[scubascuba3]

 

 

 

It is not real clear at this time how they are going to handle it at this time. 

Since you are not applying for the first step until December by applying for the non immigrant visa on or after you birthday you would be under the example for the first extension. For the first step you would only need to show one month (but 2 or 3 months would be better) of income and the money in the bank on the date you apply. They should multiply your income shown by 12 to get the annual income part of the total of 800k baht needed. You would need the required amount in the bank they determine on that day.

Then when you apply for the extension during the last 30 days of the 90 day entry from the visa or when the money has been in the bank for 60 days. And bank statements showing the income part of the income with a bank letter. 

 

So to clarify (as best we can using examples):

Income method

i have 3 months (3 mths to be on the safe side) x 65k. No need for money in the bank?

 

Combined method

i have 3 months (3 mths to be on the safe side) x 40k. Money in bank 680k (800-120) ?

 

As I'll be applying for the first step in December i can make the first 3 payments prior to applying Oct, Nov, Dec.

 

Sounds correct?

 

[ubonjoe]

8 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

Sounds correct?

Yes

[Jingthing]

There is no assurance at all at this time that combo applications without an embassy letter will be accepted at all. Be warned.

 

 

Adding to this.

 

If attempting this be sure the monthly. Imports are coded as foreign transfers.

 

Also it would clearly be better if they came in with exactly the same amount in baht each month.

 

Why?

 

Well with a record going back 12 months with varying amounts they could be added up to a total.

 

With partial months and varied amounts annualizing that would complex.

 

There are no written rules specifically covering the mechanics of this.

 

Another reason especially with partial year record quite possible for total rejection.

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[Danthai]

Impossible with monthly money pension transfers because bht fluctuates daily.

[Jingthing]

Impossible with monthly money pension transfers because bht fluctuates daily.

I think it might be possible with transferwise. I totally agree the typical way to transfer money is sending the foreign currency to be converted to baht in Thailand resulting in always varying amounts based on exchange rates.

Another example of how this new import demand is half baked at best.

It's much easier with the full income import of 65k monthly. With that it's obvious that any amount over 65k per month each month would qualify.

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[Jingthing]

I'm going to put this out there and seek a response from who most everyone considers the top authority here, Ubonjoe.

I strongly feel at this point in time that people should be strongly discouraged from attempting combo applications without embassy letters.

Why?

Multiple reasons.

The original memo detailing the process for income applications without letter fails to mention treatment of combo applications without letter at all.

The later memo ordering flexibility on income applications with records going back less than 12 months this first year as this is all new also fails to mention the combo method.

There has been at least one report of a rejection of a combo method application without embassy letter.

There are indeed no written guidelines on how the income part is to be annualized especially when partial year presented. We can guess a full 12 months of imports would simply be added up but again there is no document stating that.

To me this is an ethical issue at this point. I think it's not a good idea to advise people to even try to do combo applications without embassy letters when they would be much safer to prepare for an 800k bank method application instead. If rejected on combo it would then be too late to prepare for an 800k.

Of course this uncertainty might be resolved by immigration tomorrow or next month. But based on what we know now I don't think it's right to tell people that they should expect combo applications without embassy letters will be accepted. 800k baht applications seasoned definitely will be. Big difference.

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[scubascuba3]

I think it might be possible with transferwise. I totally agree the typical way to transfer money is sending the foreign currency to be converted to baht in Thailand resulting in always varying amounts based on exchange rates.

Another example of how this new import demand is half baked at best.

It's much easier with the full income import of 65k monthly. With that it's obvious that any amount over 65k per month each month would qualify.

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Transferwise is hit or miss whether it will appear as International transfer

[SheungWan]

7 hours ago, Danthai said:

Impossible with monthly money pension transfers because bht fluctuates daily.

The target is not exactly 65,000 per month, but rather in excess of 65,000 baht per month. 

[Jingthing]

18 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

The target is not exactly 65,000 per month, but rather in excess of 65,000 baht per month. 

As I've said before when meeting the 65k baht monthly import rule for a full income application without embassy letter, yes of course each monthly import must be at least 65K baht. No need for exactly. 65K baht or more. That would mean even one monthly import of 64,999 baht out of 12 would make the entire application invalid. Think immigration couldn't be so petty? Think again. 800K baht bank applications that have dipped one day under during seasoning periods are regularly rejected.

[Jingthing]

59 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

8 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I think it might be possible with transferwise. I totally agree the typical way to transfer money is sending the foreign currency to be converted to baht in Thailand resulting in always varying amounts based on exchange rates.

Another example of how this new import demand is half baked at best.

It's much easier with the full income import of 65k monthly. With that it's obvious that any amount over 65k per month each month would qualify.

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Transferwise is hit or miss whether it will appear as International transfer

Indeed that is true. 

For a combo based application showing the same amount (under 65K per month) would not be realistic on international transfers. 

Adding up 12 to a total would be easy enough (but still not specified) but how they would annualize a first year application with limited transfers of different amounts is totally unknown, if they would accept combo applications without embassy letters at all, also unknown. 

[Tanoshi]

12 hours ago, Jingthing said:

There is no assurance at all at this time that combo applications without an embassy letter will be accepted at all.

You have no proof of that, it's purely your own opinion and further speculation.

Do you have any proof of anyone yet this year successfully using the combo method with an Embassy letter.

 

The new amendment as per proof of income is quite clear, either an Embassy letter, or a passbook/bank statements + letter from the bank. I think every Immigration office is clear on the that fact.

The uncertainty creeps in because during this transition year, the IO's haven't been provided with any further guidance on how to proceed with assessing income other than to be 'lenient'.

 

 

[farangx]

4 hours ago, Jingthing said:

As I've said before when meeting the 65k baht monthly import rule for a full income application without embassy letter, yes of course each monthly import must be at least 65K baht. No need for exactly. 65K baht or more. That would mean even one monthly import of 64,999 baht out of 12 would make the entire application invalid. Think immigration couldn't be so petty? Think again. 800K baht bank applications that have dipped one day under during seasoning periods are regularly rejected.

I don't understand, this 64,999 baht nonsense.  What is wrong with 65,001, 65,500, 66,000 or 66,001 baht.  That minimum 65,000 baht is simply a cut off point and it is just another number.

 

[Jingthing]

You have no proof of that, it's purely your own opinion and further speculation.
Do you have any proof of anyone yet this year successfully using the combo method with an Embassy letter.
 
The new amendment as per proof of income is quite clear, either an Embassy letter, or a passbook/bank statements + letter from the bank. I think every Immigration office is clear on the that fact.
The uncertainty creeps in because during this transition year, the IO's haven't been provided with any further guidance on how to proceed with assessing income other than to be 'lenient'.
 
 

Combo applications with embassy letters have been standard for many years. No change.

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[Jingthing]

I don't understand, this 64,999 baht nonsense.  What is wrong with 65,001, 65,500, 66,000 or 66,001 baht.  That minimum 65,000 baht is simply a cut off point and it is just another number.
 

Huh?
Sounds like you're confused.
The new rule for doing a full income application without embassy letter explicitly requires at 65k baht transfer each month. Obviously any amount over 65k would also be accepted. The point of mentioning one month going under by even one baht is that one month would make that full income application subject to rejection.

Similar if you were doing an 800k baht bank method application. Show up with a balance of 799,999 and 99 satang and you will be rejected.

Cheers

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[Tanoshi]

3 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Combo applications with embassy letters have been standard for many years. No change.

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Order 327-2557 states and I quote;

Quote

Must have an annual earning and fluids deposited with a bank totaling no less than
Baht 800,0000 as of the filing date.

It never defined how the proof of income portion was presented.

 

The amended order 138-2557 now clearly states the acceptable forms of proof are;

Quote

2) Evidence showing pension-a letter or certification on deposit in a Thai bank in Thailand and bank statements showing money transfers from overseas every month for the past 12 months.

Except in the case where the applicants retirement is less than 1 year, the evidence must be from the month of retirement.

For example, the retirement is started in October 2018, the applicant must show pension payment evidence from November 2018 and pension payment evidence of the whole 12 months is required for the next year, OR 

3). Income certification certified by the Embassy or Consular.

 

I fail to see your confusion and optimism in this matter.

 

What I do note most interestingly is Immigrations use of the word 'certified' by the Embassy or Consulate, as opposed to their verbal request for Embassies to 'verify' incomes.

[Jingthing]

I fail to see your confusion and optimism in this matter.
 
What I do note most interestingly is Immigrations use of the word 'certified' by the Embassy or Consulate, as opposed to their verbal request for Embassies to 'verify' incomes.

What optimism?
I have no idea now what you are on about.
Maybe try to be more clear or don't bother replying to me again.

Anyway it's my current perception that combination applications without embassy letters are very questionable as to whether they will be accepted at all.

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[Tanoshi]

17 hours ago, Jingthing said:

What optimism?
I have no idea now what you are on about.
Maybe try to be more clear or don't bother replying to me again.

Anyway it's my current perception that combination applications without embassy letters are very questionable as to whether they will be accepted at all.

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You appear to be very confident that the combo method will be less troublesome with an Embassy letter, rather than a letter from the bank. Your perfectly entitled to your opinion, but I disagree.

True, Immigration appear a little confused at the moment, but it's early days yet and I'm sure when they've ironed out the bugs both Embassy and Bank letters will both equally be acceptable as proof of income for using the combo method.

[Jingthing]

You appear to be very confident that the combo method will be less troublesome with an Embassy letter, rather than a letter from the bank. Your perfectly entitled to your opinion, but I disagree.
True, Immigration appear a little confused at the moment, but it's early days yet and I'm sure when they've ironed out the bugs both Embassy and Bank letters will both equally be acceptable as proof of income for using the combo method.

Huh?
Dude, the combo method has been in effect for many many years with an embassy letter a strict requirement for that just as for full income method 65k applications.

You're suggesting uncertainty where none exists. I think that is wrong to do.

Yes there is indeed great uncertainty around income based applications without embassy letters.

Obviously with combo ones but did you just read the report from Jomtien reporting that no income based applications would be accepted at all there? That would include both full 65k monthly ones and combos.



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[Tanoshi]

15 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

You're suggesting uncertainty where none exists. I think that is wrong to do.

Apologies, but weren't you the one suggesting only income letters from Embassies for the combo method would continue to be acceptable.

 

18 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Obviously with combo ones but did you just read the report from Jomtien reporting that no income based applications would be accepted at all there? That would include both full 65k monthly ones and combos.

As long as people just complain and take no further action, Jomtien, who have always been a law unto themselves, will continue to get away with not following orders and setting their own rules.

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, Tanoshi said:

As long as people just complain and take no further action, Jomtien, who have always been a law unto themselves, will continue to get away with not following orders and setting their own rules.

 

 

Lets focus for readers to avoid any confusion they may have reading this messy stuff.

 

About retirement

 

Bank method 800k seasoned - - no change at all has been in effect for many years

 

Income method 65k baht with embassy letters - - no change at all has been in effect for many years

 

Combination method which is a combination of Thai Bank account plus income shown by embassy letter - -

no change at all has been in effect for many years

 

—-----------

 

New stuff

 

--------------

 

Full income 65k baht and combination applications without embassy letters

 

Uncertainty abounds at this time as whether immigration will accept or not. Reports so far indicate full income ones 65k following the new memo rules are more likely to be accepted than combo ones.

 

We will have to continue to watch reports going forward for months and even years to have full confidence about how these income and combo applications are being enforced.

 

---------

 

Conclusions and recommendations

 

800k bank method seasoned proceed with full confidence as before. Embassy letters never needed for those.

 

If you have an embassy letter no change. You can confidently do full income and combo applications as before with confidence.

 

If you have no embassy letter there is either some or great uncertainty for now about income based applications including combo applications.

 

You have a choice.

 

You may prepare for doing those with monthly transfers and hope for the best.

 

OR

 

You may decide if you are able to instead prepare for an 800k bank account seasoned application which is a sure thing.

 

I suggest going for the sure thing but that of course is a personal decision and different people have different tolerances for risk.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

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Edited January 25, 2019 by Jingthing

[JackThompson]

5 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

As long as people just complain and take no further action, Jomtien, who have always been a law unto themselves, will continue to get away with not following orders and setting their own rules.

I could not figure out a way to stop them from "getting away" with doing whatever they pleased.  Who do you call, when the organization giving you trouble disregards the law as a matter of daily-routine at multiple-locations across the country - quite publicly, in fact - and no higher-authority does anything about it?