evadgib Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 28 minutes ago, Basil B said: Democracy??? ever time a second referendum is mentioned hard line brexiteers wet their knickers and throw a tantrum... Here's why... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welovesundaysatspace Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 50 minutes ago, Retiredandhappyhere said: You are right, people never voted for a hard Brexit. What they voted for was BREXIT, hard or soft. That’s definitely not what people were being told. There were clear expectations being set what leave would mean, from 350mm a week to the easiest deal in history. Never were people told it may mean a hard Brexit. 50 minutes ago, Retiredandhappyhere said: At General Elections, politicians of all parties tend to promise the earth in their manifestos and voters react to those promises. The Brexit referendum was no different (...) ...and I’ve never seen after GE people making such a fuss about all the promises not being “respected”. 50 minutes ago, Retiredandhappyhere said: and yet when the result is announced, those who did not get the result they expected or wanted, demand the result is overturned, whilst they would no doubt agree that they are bound by a General Election result. ...because a GE, unlike the Brexit referendum, is both binding and has a clear unambiguous mandate. There is no GE that merely asks people “do you want a party that is more on the left or on the right of the spectrum”. 50 minutes ago, Retiredandhappyhere said: Yes, Governments can be overthrown in a future election but so can the decision to leave the EU be changed in a few years' time, if that turned out to be the new wish of the people, assuming of course that the EU survives in its present form. As parliament is sovereign, everything that parliament decides can be done. 50 minutes ago, Retiredandhappyhere said: It is significant that no other leader of the remaining 27 countries has the confidence in the organisation to allow its people to vote on the issue of membership. May I assume it is also significant that the UK does not have the confidence to let its people vote on taxes, budget, military, foreign policy etc. etc.? There is a reason for representative democracy, and we can see it in the UK now. I don’t need to live in a divided society filled by hatred and lies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonnyF Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 3 hours ago, Grouse said: How many more times do I have to explain representative democracy? If you don't like it, campaign for change. How many times do I have to explain Democracy? The losing side must accept the result of the vote. Not keep demanding more votes until they win one, and then we all stop voting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thingamabob Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 Remain is no longer an option. It was eliminated in the referendum. Only choice us No Deal or May's deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatsupdoc Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 12 minutes ago, Thingamabob said: Remain is no longer an option. It was eliminated in the referendum. Only choice us No Deal or May's deal. How can May's deal (being defeated by the largest margin in UK parliamentary history) ever be a choice again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 3 hours ago, vogie said: I agree with politicians who are willing to give the people what they voted for, and at the other end of the scale politicians like Soubry, Grieve and Yvette Cooper (who make my blood boil), and the speaker Berco should be sacked for his bias and unfair prejudices. Vogue, after all this time you still seem not to understand representative democracy. What to do? I just can't get you to accept how our system works. Absolute democracy would never work as I am sure you realise. Berco is doing a heroic job taking care of parliament. It is not his job to protect a broken executive, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 3 hours ago, newatthis said: He's part of your representative democracy, is he not? If you don't like him, campaign for a change. I am not one of his constituents. I would certainly not vote for someone of his character The people should send the weasel back to sunny East Kilbride where he comes from! But you raise a useful point. I think in future, people WILL consider the credentials of a candidate rather than just their party. Good point! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evadgib Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 Here's what might be coming & if it does it will dwarf the 2016 result: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 56 minutes ago, JonnyF said: How many times do I have to explain Democracy? The losing side must accept the result of the vote. Not keep demanding more votes until they win one, and then we all stop voting. OK Jonny, one more time just for you Parliament is sovereign. That means they and they alone call all the shots You, personally, are represented by the MP your constituency elected. Your MP must act in the best interest of his constituents. Your best interests may not be what you ask for. It is what your MP considers to be in your best interest. Do you think nobody knows better than you? Nobody is wiser than you? Nobody is better educated than you? Nobody has access to more information than you? Think about that.... Our representative democracy has served us well and has evolved over centuries. We could easily replace MPs with an iPhone app. But be careful what you wish for. Bring back hanging? Workhouses? Free beer? Retire at 40. I am happy with the status quo. It doesn't bother me that our MPs maybe brighter than me. I will look more carefully at the next election though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vogie Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 8 minutes ago, Grouse said: Vogue, after all this time you still seem not to understand representative democracy. What to do? I just can't get you to accept how our system works. Absolute democracy would never work as I am sure you realise. Berco is doing a heroic job taking care of parliament. It is not his job to protect a broken executive, Everybody understands how rep democracy works, but you know as well as I do that on the 21st of June 2016 that rep democracy was sub contracted out to the citizens of the UK. And both of the leading political parties based their manifestos on leaving the EU and between them accrued most of the votes, the Lib/Dems fought their campaign on remaining in the EU and got a severe beating. I hope it has become a little more apparrent to you how our system worked on the day of the vote????. Again Bercow has done something most irregular and far from neutral, but what he did do is to try and overturn democracy and I hope he does not get the mandatory Knighthood and he gets booted out at the first possible opportuity. I'm very surprised he doesn't have EU cushions on his Parliamentary seat. And most importantly my name is not vogue, I am not a magazine.???????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welovesundaysatspace Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 2 minutes ago, Grouse said: OK Jonny, one more time just for you Parliament is sovereign. That means they and they alone call all the shots You, personally, are represented by the MP your constituency elected. Your MP must act in the best interest of his constituents. Your best interests may not be what you ask for. It is what your MP considers to be in your best interest. Do you think nobody knows better than you? Nobody is wiser than you? Nobody is better educated than you? Nobody has access to more information than you? Think about that.... Our representative democracy has served us well and has evolved over centuries. We could easily replace MPs with an iPhone app. But be careful what you wish for. Bring back hanging? Workhouses? Free beer? Retire at 40. I am happy with the status quo. It doesn't bother me that our MPs maybe brighter than me. I will look more carefully at the next election though! Brexiteers are anti-democratic. They manipulate polls and try to circumvent the parliamentary representative democracy we have using those manipulated polls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 2 minutes ago, vogie said: Everybody understands how rep democracy works, but you know as well as I do that on the 21st of June 2016 that rep democracy was sub contracted out to the citizens of the UK. And both of the leading political parties based their manifestos on leaving the EU and between them accrued most of the votes, the Lib/Dems fought their campaign on remaining in the EU and got a severe beating. I hope it has become a little more apparrent to you how our system worked on the day of the vote????. Again Bercow has done something most irregular and far from neutral, but what he did do is to try and overturn democracy and I hope he does not get the mandatory Knighthood and he gets booted out at the first possible opportuity. I'm very surprised he doesn't have EU cushions on his Parliamentary seat. And most importantly my name is not vogue, I am not a magazine.???????? Sorry that you are not in vogue! parliament can revoke or replace any law I agree that both major parties agreed to "respect the referendum" but they did not agree to proceed with any specific deal or a no deal. Clearly Norway is not in the EU. I would prefer parliament to decide and have the decision ratified publically. Running down the clock to force no deal or crap deal is cynical and unethical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil B Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 1 hour ago, JonnyF said: How many times do I have to explain Democracy? The losing side must accept the result of the vote. Not keep demanding more votes until they win one, and then we all stop voting. Please read the post above yours (post #32 by welovesundaysatspace), then you will understand why many of us want a 2nd referendum as many of those who voted leave did not vote for what is going to happen 29th March if the brakes are not put on soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natway09 Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 He has got it right. The People in Parliament are all looking for an angle to better themselves rather than the country It has become a bun fight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vogie Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 1 minute ago, Grouse said: Sorry that you are not in vogue! parliament can revoke or replace any law I agree that both major parties agreed to "respect the referendum" but they did not agree to proceed with any specific deal or a no deal. Clearly Norway is not in the EU. I would prefer parliament to decide and have the decision ratified publically. Running down the clock to force no deal or crap deal is cynical and unethical Lets not dwell on what Parliament can do, but more what they did do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evadgib Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 14 minutes ago, vogie said: Everybody understands how rep democracy works, but you know as well as I do that on the 21st of June 2016 that rep democracy was sub contracted out to the citizens of the UK. And both of the leading political parties based their manifestos on leaving the EU and between them accrued most of the votes, the Lib/Dems fought their campaign on remaining in the EU and got a severe beating. I hope it has become a little more apparrent to you how our system worked on the day of the vote????. Again Bercow has done something most irregular and far from neutral, but what he did do is to try and overturn democracy and I hope he does not get the mandatory Knighthood and he gets booted out at the first possible opportuity. I'm very surprised he doesn't have EU cushions on his Parliamentary seat. And most importantly my name is not vogue, I am not a magazine.???????? For good measure a whoopee cushion would compliment his EU-liveried Woolsack ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Gravy Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 6 minutes ago, Basil B said: Please read the post above yours (post #32 by welovesundaysatspace), then you will understand why many of us want a 2nd referendum as many of those who voted leave did not vote for what is going to happen 29th March if the brakes are not put on soon. So where is the evidence for this 'many of those who voted leave'. Making it up or telling porkies? Please post this on 30th March 2019, as you might have a bit more credibility. Until then you are talking pants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owl sees all Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 Just now, vogie said: Lets not dwell on what Parliament can do, but more what they did do. Parliament voted 6 to 1 to accept the referendum result (whatever the outcome). They just didn't think it would go the way it did. Well done the people. Shame on you MPs. The EU is in absolute turmoil over this. The UK leaving could be the beginning of the end of the European federal dream, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welovesundaysatspace Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 1 minute ago, Laughing Gravy said: So where is the evidence for this 'many of those who voted leave'. Promises made by the leave campaign. Think it’s pretty well documented. Included a certain red bus. If you disagree, where is your evidence that people voted for a no-deal Brexit or May’s deal Brexit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welovesundaysatspace Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 3 minutes ago, owl sees all said: Parliament voted 6 to 1 to accept the referendum result (whatever the outcome). They just didn't think it would go the way it did. Did parliament also vote that its sovereignty would end at that point? 3 minutes ago, owl sees all said: The EU is in absolute turmoil over this. The UK leaving could be the beginning of the end of the European federal dream, IMO. Yaaaawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evadgib Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 5 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said: If you disagree, where is your evidence that people voted for a no-deal Brexit or May’s deal Brexit? The default position should be that they ALL did unless or until evidence emerges to the contrary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welovesundaysatspace Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 5 minutes ago, evadgib said: The default position should be that they ALL did unless or until evidence emerges to the contrary. It emerged in the form of promises being made to them that the default position would be “the easiest deal in history”, definitely not no-deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Gravy Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 6 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said: Promises made by the leave campaign. Think it’s pretty well documented. Included a certain red bus. If you disagree, where is your evidence that people voted for a no-deal Brexit or May’s deal Brexit? Oh dear not that old chestnut again about a red bus. You are sounding like a sore loser and they say Brexiteers are uneducated. I can tell you that there was no mention of Soft Brexit or No Deal, the words didn't exist until remainers made it up after they lost. Everyone was informed multiple times what leaving the EU meant. Leaving the CU, SM, ECJ, gaining back control of fishing. Which for those who's superior education doesn't understand, it equates to no deal, at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evadgib Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 9 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said: It emerged in the form of promises being made to them that the default position would be “the easiest deal in history”, definitely not no-deal. Splitting hairs. I have yet to meet anyone on the same side who doesn't think leaving is a good idea or who wants to retain any form of connection under any of the prefixes dreamed up by the opposition. Canada +++ on the other hand is looking good and may well come our way after we have formally left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil B Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 11 minutes ago, vogie said: Everybody understands how rep democracy works, but you know as well as I do that on the 21st of June 2016 that rep democracy was sub contracted out to the citizens of the UK. And both of the leading political parties based their manifestos on leaving the EU and between them accrued most of the votes, the Lib/Dems fought their campaign on remaining in the EU and got a severe beating. I hope it has become a little more apparrent to you how our system worked on the day of the vote????. Again Bercow has done something most irregular and far from neutral, but what he did do is to try and overturn democracy and I hope he does not get the mandatory Knighthood and he gets booted out at the first possible opportuity. I'm very surprised he doesn't have EU cushions on his Parliamentary seat. And most importantly my name is not vogue, I am not a magazine.???????? vogie, you are posting rubbish again the Lib/Dems got a mauling in the 2015 General Election for helping the Tories to stay in office, long before DC called the referendum, their was no General Election on the 21st June 2016, what I think you are referring to was the General Election of 8th June 2017, when the Lib/Dems actually increased their seats in the house by 50% from the 2015 result and the Tories lost their Majority in the house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonnyF Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 39 minutes ago, Grouse said: OK Jonny, one more time just for you Parliament is sovereign. That means they and they alone call all the shots You, personally, are represented by the MP your constituency elected. Your MP must act in the best interest of his constituents. Your best interests may not be what you ask for. It is what your MP considers to be in your best interest. Do you think nobody knows better than you? Nobody is wiser than you? Nobody is better educated than you? Nobody has access to more information than you? Think about that.... Our representative democracy has served us well and has evolved over centuries. We could easily replace MPs with an iPhone app. But be careful what you wish for. Bring back hanging? Workhouses? Free beer? Retire at 40. I am happy with the status quo. It doesn't bother me that our MPs maybe brighter than me. I will look more carefully at the next election though! You're creating a Strawman's argument since I have never claimed we have anything other than representative democracy and understand it perfectly well. Feel free to explain it again though if it makes you feel better. What I said was that parliament should not try and over-ride the result of the referendum by sabotaging the process and I stand by that comment. We didn't vote 52% to allow our MP's to decide for us. We voted 52% to leave. Now I will ask you again. Why will you not accept the result of a Democratic vote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil B Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 28 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said: So where is the evidence for this 'many of those who voted leave'. Making it up or telling porkies? Please post this on 30th March 2019, as you might have a bit more credibility. Until then you are talking pants. We want to prove it, it is brexiteers who do not want a peoples vote to ratify what ever brexit deal is actually decided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welovesundaysatspace Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 16 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said: Oh dear not that old chestnut again about a red bus. You are sounding like a sore loser and they say Brexiteers are uneducated. If anyone is sounding like a sore loser, it’s the Brexiteers whining that “their win” should be respected. And as long as you keep telling us that people voted for anything and everything that you approve as a valid Brexit, others will keep bringing up that old chestnuts again proving the opposite. Quote I can tell you that there was no mention of Soft Brexit or No Deal, the words didn't exist until remainers made it up after they lost. There was “the easiest deal in history”. Quote Everyone was informed multiple times what leaving the EU meant. Leaving the CU, SM, ECJ, gaining back control of fishing. Which for those who's superior education doesn't understand, it equates to no deal, at the moment. No, that’s not what leave voters were being told their leaders. Quite the contrary. 14 minutes ago, evadgib said: Splitting hairs. I have yet to meet anyone on the same side who doesn't think leaving is a good idea or who wants to retain any form of connection under any of the prefixes dreamed up by the opposition. I have. So what? Quote Canada +++ on the other hand is looking good and may well come our way after we have formally left. So now you’re the one deciding what’s “looking good”? Funny how Brexiteers demand having the authority about deciding what means leave and what not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vogie Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 15 minutes ago, Basil B said: vogie, you are posting rubbish again the Lib/Dems got a mauling in the 2015 General Election for helping the Tories to stay in office, long before DC called the referendum, their was no General Election on the 21st June 2016, what I think you are referring to was the General Election of 8th June 2017, when the Lib/Dems actually increased their seats in the house by 50% from the 2015 result and the Tories lost their Majority in the house. Yes you're correct the LibDems got 12 seats, to quote Brucie "didn't they do well" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Gravy Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 11 minutes ago, Basil B said: We want to prove it, it is brexiteers who do not want a peoples vote to ratify what ever brexit deal is actually decided. So you want to prove it. Oh dear. It took 43 years before a vote was given and you want another one before the first one has even been acted upon. Do you realise how ridiculous that sounds. Absolutely hilarious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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