Thai immigration to show leniency to foreigners applying for retirement & marriage extensions

[gk10002000]

But again, they are proceeding from a false assumption that showing 12 months of valid transfers is the ONLY way to prove income.  Yes that means and process was originally mentioned but nothing said that would be the only way, yet here they are now promulgating that as the only way.

[ubonjoe]

7 minutes ago, fvw53 said:

3 months when you apply first time for extension....the following years only 2 months ...Correct?

It is 60 days for the first extension and then 3 months after that for a extension based upon retirement.

[NanLaew]

2 hours ago, HalfLight said:

Well it won't be the second possibility you mention, so it has to be the first.

 

I'm surprised he'd be factoring in the views of foreigners at all though, even at second-hand.

 

 

Totally agree. After all, despite the protestations of how many pequeninos they claim to support or barfines per annum they pay, on the whole, the impact on the Thai GDP from losing a few hundred impoversihed foreigners is pretty much less than bugger all.

[HalfLight]

1 minute ago, NanLaew said:

the impact on the Thai GDP from losing a few hundred impoversihed foreigners is pretty much less than bugger all.

 

Correct. Sadly. Because it will encourage the present attitudes towards foreigners, the exceptionalism of Thais and the decline of GDP as a whole when people of all walks decide that Thailand just isn't worth the candle.

 

The attitude is famously toxic.

 

 

[jacko45k]

I do hope leniency does not come at a cost!

[ancharee]

1 hour ago, bipper said:

What about the lump sum on deposit. What about having 800K or 400K on deposit for 3 months prior? Has that disappeared altogether?

I was told for the marriage extension it was 2 months prior

[Pattaya46]

15 minutes ago, gk10002000 said:

But again, they are proceeding from a false assumption that showing 12 months of valid transfers is the ONLY way to prove income.  Yes that means and process was originally mentioned but nothing said that would be the only way, yet here they are now promulgating that as the only way.

It's maybe the only way in your case, but because you can't get an Embassy Letter, not because Thai Immigration doesn't provide another way. You should be happy that they added this option, otherwise you could have hade money-in-the bank as only option...

[NanLaew]

1 hour ago, finnishmen said:

hmm, must lookinmg what happen next year my visa, i can only send my pension salary ewery month 700€ about 23000 bht to my wife bank account, i no have own account no can open ewery bank want have work permit papers, im old pension no need work permit, i no make work newer again.

How did you manage last year?

[fvw53]

18 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

It is 60 days for the first extension and then 3 months after that for a extension based upon retirement.

...but in case based on marriage .... it is 3 months for the first extension ....and then 2 months after that ...correct?

[ubonjoe]

2 hours ago, chrisinth said:

My question, looking at the slightly bigger picture, is how this will affect newly weds and people retiring to Thailand from the end of 2019 onward? Does this mean that they will have to wait for a year before they can be eligible to apply for an extension to achieve the history required for transfers using the income method?

That is covered in the amendment to the police order that was posted in another topic.

The example shown in it states only one transfer into the country is required.

[MrPatrickThai]

Just pay an agent and do without all the hassle. 

[robsamui]

This glamour-boy, Silly Joke, will go down in Thai-farang legend as the hot-shot who was so busy watching the back door for the overstayers that he totally missed the steady stream of expats leaving the country via the front door.

[NanLaew]

1 hour ago, joebrown said:

My local Immigration office told me that when I renew my Marriage Extension in August they will want at least 2 months records of foreign transfers to a Thai bank, which is helpful.

What's more helpful is sharing the location of your local IO just in case a near neighbor is in the same wee boat.

[jacko45k]

18 hours ago, lamyai3 said:

No one's back pedalling. Whichever way you want to spin it, twelve months of transfers into a Thai account (from 2020) is a far more onerous system than that which preceded it, where retirees were able to obtain an income letter based on just three months of UK bank statements, and limit bringing in actual living expenses to what they needed for living here.

Not if you live a long way from Bangkok and the Embassy.

 

Edited January 23, 2019 by jacko45k

[NanLaew]

1 hour ago, bipper said:

What about the lump sum on deposit. What about having 800K or 400K on deposit for 3 months prior? Has that disappeared altogether?

No changes whatsoever. The rejigging of the drip-feed income provenance would suggest that the lump sum is the preferred method for both parties, easier to verify, less paperwork, etc..

[AAArdvark]

16 hours ago, rott said:

Nothing to do with scamming the system. The system is simple and cannot be scammed.

Please explain how you think differently.

At one time, while the embassy letters were still being issued, I emailed the US Consulate in CM.  I asked what proof I had to provide them before they could issue the letter.  The response was that I didn't have to provide any.  How is that "cannot be scammed"?

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, Wake Up said:

Thailand does not want to get rid of people who can afford to live here.

Then why did they set the income-requirements for retirement to over double what it costs to live here comfortably?   We could assume it was because they knew we would not be importing our total income - until this "new rule" change.

 

1 hour ago, NanLaew said:

The lack of some foreigner's fiscal fortitude is the concern of neither Thai Immigration or 'the Embassies' and they are certainly not the cause of some foreigners being unable to self-fund their long-term, legal stay in Thailand.

They can fund their stay.  Only artificial barriers, having nothing to do with the (market-determined) cost of living here, are interfering in their remaining here.

 

17 hours ago, Moonlover said:

What you're implying is that those who erstwhile have been abusing the embassy letters as a way of circumventing TI's fiscal requirements in order to obtain a visa extension will henceforth have to comply with those requirements.

To the extent there were any "abusers" of embassy letters, they would now pay agents, so immigration can get the income "action" they felt the embassies were blocking.  

 

I don't recall any stories of immigration reporting embassy-letter lying (a Felony Risk in one's passport country for USA/AU), which would definitely have been used for anti-farang news/propaganda purposes.  And they certainly could have done this, if it were really the widespread problem that some would like us to believe it was. 

 

A few stories of "a guy I knew at the bar said he lied," are hardly justification for moving the goalposts for income (from gross-income to net-imported-income), resulting in harm / agent-extortion for many who were formerly abiding 100% by the then-rules.

 

3 minutes ago, AAArdvark said:

At one time, while the embassy letters were still being issued, I emailed the US Consulate in CM.  I asked what proof I had to provide them before they could issue the letter.  The response was that I didn't have to provide any.  How is that "cannot be scammed"?

Did they warn you it was a felony-charge to lie, and that federal-prosecutors win 95%+ of their cases?

 

16 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

seems to condone bypassing the requirement and actually not bring 800k or 400k into Thaiand p.a. for living expenses, and also making the Embassy complicit in that deceit. What one needs is not what Immigration specified. And people wonder why Embassy letters went away.

Where did the requirement ever state that one needed to import the full 40K/65K - or must import it monthly?  Or, is this some "spirit of the law" / "loophole" theory, where immigration can re-write clear historical-intents, whenever they change or "re-interpret" the rules?

 

They moved the goalposts a full 50 yards down-field, but folks claim we should still be able to kick the field-goal from our formerly good field-position (having more than the necessary gross-income).

Edited January 23, 2019 by JackThompson

[NanLaew]

51 minutes ago, fvw53 said:

I am in this case and until now I did transfers of 3 months income at the end of the 3 months so that I had to pay less bank fees....but will Immigration accept this in the future and do I need now to transfer money every month?

With the caveats as defined in the OP and being discussed herein, they MAY accept it from 2019 onwards but definitely not from 2020 onward.

 

Yes, you need to switch to a monthly top up as soon as possible to benefit from the 2019 leniency.

 

54 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

And for the future, must be the sufficient transfer EVERY month, no averaging or skipping and then making up later. At least, that's the way the official order reads.

As he says.

[JackThompson]

22 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

After all, despite the protestations of how many pequeninos they claim to support or barfines per annum they pay, on the whole, the impact on the Thai GDP from losing a few hundred impoversihed foreigners is pretty much less than bugger all.

Those Thais formerly employed in the entire streets of boarded-up businesses due to immigration's "crackdowns" on Western expats would disagree with you.  But the "little people" - both the average-income expats formerly enjoying life here, and the tens of thousands of Thais which their foreign-incomes once supported - don't matter to the elites who share your perspective.

 

45 minutes ago, Benroon said:

Think about that - the only people crying over this are predominantly old people that after a lifetime of work presumably, can’t scrape together just 400k/800k.

So, a "lifetime of work" not being paid a lot of money, whose lower-incomes helped businesses amass more wealth to distribute to the wealthy.  As a result, they cannot afford to take 800K out of their investments -  and/or - it would be a significant portion of their liquid assets, so would be foolish to place in a foreign-country bank - a country where they only have "permission to live" for at most, a year at a time - and no "rights" to speak of. 

 

By this logic, their reward for a lifetime of lower-paid service to their economies (helping the wealthy become wealthier), should amount to being "thrown under the bus" by their govt/embassy, operating in cahoots with a corrupt foreign immigration service?

 

There is a long-standing rule which used to be posted to this site (when I first started reading) and to which all wise expats should adhere:  Never bring any money to / invest-in Thailand which you cannot afford to lose.  This is not a "doom and gloom" prediction about banks, etc - just a general wise-rule given the context of our existence here. 

 

The constantly moving-goalposts and corruption / inconsistencies with immigration reinforce the wisdom of this rule.  If officialdom treated us with dignity and respect (as the general populace still does), and stopped the constant stream of "bad/evil foreigner" media-propaganda (designed to turn the general-population against us), we could reconsider that rule - but not before.

[NanLaew]

22 minutes ago, robsamui said:

This glamour-boy, Silly Joke, will go down in Thai-farang legend as the hot-shot who was so busy watching the back door for the overstayers that he totally missed the steady stream of expats leaving the country via the front door.

...who struggled to get out through that front door due to the huge numbers of Indians and Chinese that were pouring in.

 

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

[AAArdvark]

18 hours ago, mercman24 said:

if a person cannot show the 65,000 baht going into a bank account, this year how in gods name will they be able to show 65,000 next year. as some are on a fixed uk pension, of say 30,000  baht and are obviously retired. and have wives, children and property here, the mind boggles at some of their decisions, its the Embassies that have deserted these people

If you don't actually have ฿ 65,000 each month to deposit, you are kind of screwed.  But the idea here is that some may have had it but didn't deposit as prescribed.  They are just giving those people the chance to sort it out and get the deposits coming. 

[garyk]

1 minute ago, NanLaew said:

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

Not in the 20th century it doesn't.

Change like this will be shouted over the internet and driven home by the masses IMO.

 

[Changoverandout]

My U.K. pension goes directly into my BKK bank and sometimes the code is FTT but other times it is BTN. The same when I use Transferwise or Xendpay.

I will be using combination method (transferring the difference of income to 800k from another Thai bank for 3 months then back) will the bank letter accept the 2 different codes as they are both from U.K.?

[madmen]

2 hours ago, hotchilli said:

Not back peddling, the change of pension/income verification letters given by embassies changed during the latter part of 2018. Thus not giving some a full 12 months notice.

Some people like me have now changed the method of payment of pension from their home countries due to these changes.

When I renew my retirement visa this July I will have accumulated 9 months of 65,000 baht to my Thai bank account, this is where the leniency will help during the first year.

It's ironic that the infamous 4 useless embassies dumped us with little warning and now the Thais are stepping in to help out. 

[JackThompson]

17 hours ago, mercman24 said:

its the Embassies that have deserted these people

12 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Either that, or embassies that were forced/prodded out of issuing income letters by Thai Immigration's demands for verification.  In truth, we may really never know just who was the moving party on that subject. 

 

But since Brits, Americans and Aussies are among the largest expat populations of westerners in Thailand, the absence of those income letters moving forward covers a very large segment of the expat population here.

From my observations, it appears to have been a joint-effort - from our embassies, to screw / move a portion of pensioners elsewhere - and by immigration, to extort any who can manage an agent-payment to hang-on.

 

11 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Why can a similar service still exist in Colombia and Peru and not here. Americans that have been depending on these letters should rightfully be angry about this shoddy, damaging treatment by our own embassy.

It appears that our govt thinks we would be more "useful" expat-pawns if living in Columbia or Peru - vs Thailand.  UKers even get pension-increases in the PI - but not here.  Of course, the attitudes of immigration in those countries is also a big factor.

 

Govts generally tend to look on their populace as cattle to be herded (moved), bled (taxes), stampeded (war), and ultimately harvested (end of life care-costs clawing back total life-savings in the USA, and/or sub-standard pensions having the same net-drain effect).

 

As a foreigner in the country, one can expect to get even poorer treatment, unless viewed as an asset - which everyone paying their bills from foreign-sourced incomes in Thailand most certainly is.  But when insanity takes over - whether from corruption/greed or xenophobia - assets may be set on fire in a most illogical manner.  The only good news, is that immigration seems to be setting fire to expat-lives in an incremental fashion, providing most with some warning of the impending blaze.

[Jingthing]

10 minutes ago, AAArdvark said:

If you don't actually have ฿ 65,000 each month to deposit, you are kind of screwed.  But the idea here is that some may have had it but didn't deposit as prescribed.  They are just giving those people the chance to sort it out and get the deposits coming. 

 

There is now a very unfair TWO TIERED income based application system for retirement.

 

For people still able to get embassy letters --

No requirement to import even one baht annually

Combination method reliably accepted (for example showing imports of 600k baht at any time during the year, no monthly imports specified, no external imports specified) plus 200K baht in a Thai bank account (seasoned even though the rules technically don't require seasoning for combo applications)

 

VS.

 

The totally screwed retired expats that can no longer get embassy letters --

 

Required import monthly of at least 65K baht each month, not allowed to go under the 65K one baht, not allowed to structure imports timing other than monthly, imports must be from abroad 

 

(Leniency shown on going back a full 12 months ONLY the for this first year. Pretty weak tea leniency that compared the rules in play which are objectively very inflexible, indeed ONEROUS.)

 

Combination method --

According to our top visa expert here, UJ, this still applies without income letter.

 

However, and a big however,

 

Even if that turns out to be true in enforcement, combo method applicants would still be under the same rules as full 65K imports as far as the need for monthly imports that must come in from abroad

 

But wait, there's more, and it's even worse.

 

So far, actual enforcement is showing evidence that Thai immigration is not accepting combo method applications AT ALL without embassy letters.

 

That could change, but for now, be warned. 

 

Also note, the new document providing temporary "leniency" fails to mention any language that would clarify the enforcement issue with combo applications without embassy letters.

 

Cheers.

Edited January 23, 2019 by Jingthing

[AjarnMartin]

50 minutes ago, Benroon said:

And how much interest would you get on 400k elsewhere ? £70 ? £90 ? 

 

Yiu are going to make life changing decisions because you’re not getting £90 ?

 

Jesus some people need to get a grip 

Hi Benroon, there is clearly no SINGLE reason for me becoming despondent with the direction in which Thailand is going and it’s not a knee-jerk reaction to the current topic. It’s also not only the monetary interest but also, among many other considerations, is if I want the freedom to move around the world, I don’t want to be hampered by suddenly finding that I am unable to repatriate my assets. I’ve always had a ‘grip’ as you so eloquently advise, but thank you all the same... ????

[brianthainess]

Why do we have to show money coming in EVERY month ? paying transfer fees every month is ludicrous why not 3 months or a few days before visa is due ? more short sighted patheticness from B J and his crew.  

[rott]

28 minutes ago, AAArdvark said:

At one time, while the embassy letters were still being issued, I emailed the US Consulate in CM.  I asked what proof I had to provide them before they could issue the letter.  The response was that I didn't have to provide any.  How is that "cannot be scammed"?

That WAS the system, you were not scamming it.

[garyk]

12 minutes ago, AjarnMartin said:

Hi Benroon, there is clearly no SINGLE reason for me becoming despondent with the direction in which Thailand is going and it’s not a knee-jerk reaction to the current topic. It’s also not only the monetary interest but also, among many other considerations, is if I want the freedom to move around the world, I don’t want to be hampered by suddenly finding that I am unable to repatriate my assets. I’ve always had a ‘grip’ as you so eloquently advise, but thank you all the same... ????

Really this new law only hurts (or not) the guys retired now,  and do not want to leave Thailand ever again. 

Just a money grab. If not a money grab, they would grandfather in the old timers and cut them some slack.

New retirees would not dream of coming here and seasoning 800K in a Thai bank.

Which maybe is what Thailand government wants. That is the only thing I can come up with. 

 

 

Edited January 23, 2019 by garyk