Hat Yai Hell

[Sprog71]

From Hull, Hell, Halifax and Hat Yai Immigration may the good Lord deliver us.

Facts

1. 80 years old

2. English, Married in 1980 to Thai in UK. Wife has Thai passport and I D card in married name.

3. Spent many millions of Baht in Thailand since 1977

4. Employed over 200 Thai nationals over 11 years in the UK.

5. Thai wife has been a business owner, property owner and has had the right to stay in UK for 39 years having two children and free medical care etc.

 

Today I applied for an extension to a single entry O visa (marriage) at Hat Yai.

 

Refused

1. They wanted original English Marriage certificate and rejected a Thai translation endorsed by British and Thai embassies. 

2. They wanted a paper sighed by a local Amphur that we were not divorced.

3. Would not accept a joint bank account showing well above Bht 800.000 and showing a transaction on the day plus a letter from the Bangkok Bank which referred them to the pass book but did not include the balance. 

4 Required copies of every page of bank pass book going back to 2011.

 

Past my sell by date ?

 

 

[Justin Side]

2. A normal requirement.

3. bank account in your name only.

400,000 in there for 2 months.

Letter certifying balance in bank.

4. Not a problem.

Edited January 22, 2019 by Justin Side

[elviajero]

8 minutes ago, Sprog71 said:

Past my sell by date ?

No. Just unprepared.

 

Prior to any extension application you should go to the office and ask for a list of exactly what they want. And even then expect that a second visit might be needed.

[Sprog71]

For your information.

I saw the same IO in November only days after arrival. She saw my bank pass books and stated they were satisfactory. No question of my name only.

 

I was told that the evidence I supplied to get my wife's ID in her married name at the local Amphur  would be acceptable. ie. Thai translation of marriage certificate.

DO NOT TELL ME I WAS NOT PREPARED.

 

Lets get real.

[JackThompson]

13 minutes ago, Sprog71 said:

For your information.

I saw the same IO in November only days after arrival. She saw my bank pass books and stated they were satisfactory. No question of my name only.

 

I was told that the evidence I supplied to get my wife's ID in her married name at the local Amphur  would be acceptable. ie. Thai translation of marriage certificate.

DO NOT TELL ME I WAS NOT PREPARED.

 

Lets get real.

They make it as hard as possible if you are married to a Thai in many offices now.  At some offices, even if you meet their last list of demands, they could change them once or twice more, adding more to each visit.  Hopefully yours is not one of the bad ones.

 

The amphur will issue you a Kor Ror 2 (your #2 document), but also probably want to see the original marriage certificate as well as the Thai-Translated one.  The original is also needed for a Non-O Visa from a nearby consulate.  Do Not let them keep the original marriage-certificate at the Amphoe (has happened to some folks, leading to problems later) - only a copy of it.

 

If you can put 800K in the bank, seasoned 3 mo, in your own name only - use this and go for an extension based on retirement, instead.  Retirement is a same-day or next-day extension vs "30-days under consideration" for marriage-based, and much less hassle in general (the opposite of that which logic or compassion would indicate).

Edited January 22, 2019 by JackThompson

[elviajero]

22 minutes ago, Sprog71 said:

DO NOT TELL ME I WAS NOT PREPARED

YOU WERE NOT PREPARED.

 

1 hour ago, Sprog71 said:

1. They wanted original English Marriage certificate and rejected a Thai translation endorsed by British and Thai embassies. 

Having the original marriage certificate is always required.

 

Quote

2. They wanted a paper sighed by a local Amphur that we were not divorced.

Not uncommon.

 

Quote

3. Would not accept a joint bank account showing well above Bht 800.000 and showing a transaction on the day plus a letter from the Bangkok Bank which referred them to the pass book but did not include the balance. 

Some offices do accept joint accounts, but it's supposed to be your money to support yourself for the 1 years permission to stay.

 

Quote

4 Required copies of every page of bank pass book going back to 2011.

Unreasonable, but nothing a photocopier can't sort out.

Edited January 22, 2019 by elviajero

[elviajero]

2 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

They make it as hard as possible if you are married to a Thai in many offices now.  At some offices, even if you meet their last list of demands, they could change them once or twice more, adding more to each visit.  Hopefully yours is not one of the bad ones.

They aren't, and rarely ask for more than on their list.

 

IO's, in most cases, are just following orders and have to present your application in the way the boss wants. Standard Thai bureaucracy. They are often doing you a favour by making sure the application meets the set standard.

[JackThompson]

1 minute ago, elviajero said:

They aren't, and rarely ask for more than on their list.

 

IO's, in most cases, are just following orders and have to present your application in the way the boss wants. Standard Thai bureaucracy. They are often doing you a favour by making sure the application meets the set standard.

Many of us have been put through the wringer to spite being fully-prepared - reports from several offices.  At some offices, even retirement involves multiple trips for "extra new requirements," as punishment for not paying them off via an agent - but they dislike/punish marriage-based even more.

 

Hopefully, the OP's office will stick to the last list they gave him.  We don't have many reports of extensions based on marriage from Hat Yai.  Keep in mind, that office told him what he had was fine for the marriage-cert and bank-money before (when he had plenty of time to sort things out), so the goalposts have already moved once on 2 requirements, as he gets closer to running out of permitted-stay (quite possibly, as planned).

[ukrules]

Do you feel welcome in this country ?

 

[elviajero]

2 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Many of us have been put through the wringer to spite being fully-prepared - reports from several offices.  At some offices, even retirement involves multiple trips for "extra new requirements," as punishment for not paying them off via an agent - but they dislike/punish marriage-based even more.

And many more have their applications processed without a problem. You are generalising based on your own bad experience.

 

IO's prefer processing retirement extensions only because it's less paperwork and they are under less scrutiny fro their bosses. They do not dislike/punish marriage based applications that meet their requirements.

 

2 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Hopefully, the OP's office will stick to the last list they gave him.  We don't have many reports of extensions based on marriage from Hat Yai.  Keep in mind, that office told him what he had was fine for the marriage-cert and bank-money before (when he had plenty of time to sort things out), so the goalposts have already moved once on 2 requirements, as he gets closer to running out of permitted-stay (quite possibly, as planned).

The goal posts may well have moved, but getting just verbal assurance is not a good idea - especially if there's a language barrier. Each office will have a printed list of requirements. If you get that list, and provide everything listed, you will have a greater chance of not needing extra trips.

[Sprog71]

The truth is I do not really care.

My wife is more upset than I am. Thank you JT for a constructive reply. I will take the IO advice and go elsewhere obtain a 60 day tourist visa and then return for a 30 day extension to see me through to mid April when I return to the UK.

I must say it is very sad that for the first time in over forty years I have felt unwelcome in Thailand.

 

[JackThompson]

37 minutes ago, Sprog71 said:

The truth is I do not really care.

My wife is more upset than I am. Thank you JT for a constructive reply. I will take the IO advice and go elsewhere obtain a 60 day tourist visa and then return for a 30 day extension to see me through to mid April when I return to the UK.

I must say it is very sad that for the first time in over forty years I have felt unwelcome in Thailand.

 

It's just a clique in officialdom which has the problem - the rest of the Thais still appreciate us. 

[Sprog71]

Thanks for that JT.

I Know that. Why would I hang around for 40 years.

[JackThompson]

46 minutes ago, elviajero said:

And many more have their applications processed without a problem. You are generalising based on your own bad experience.

I read the reports here, many of which tally with my experience.  Marriage-based never had a lot of bad-reports in the past.  Now they do.

 

46 minutes ago, elviajero said:

IO's prefer processing retirement extensions only because it's less paperwork and they are under less scrutiny fro their bosses. They do not dislike/punish marriage based applications that meet their requirements. 

It's the bosses which are likely the primary source of the problem, much more than the front-line IOs taking orders.  The rudeness my wife and I experienced, which has also been reported from the same IOs by others, could be due to their boss(es) pressuring them to deliver more agent-money.  Maybe that's why they are angry - desperate to keep their jobs?  Or maybe they drank the kool-aid (Jim Jones / Guyana reference), and really believe foreigners marrying Thais is "bad" - or both.  But "disgust" was the emotion they seemed to convey to us (wife no tattoos / obviously not a "working gal" type), and folks in other offices with different IOs are having similar issues.

 

46 minutes ago, elviajero said:

The goal posts may well have moved, but getting just verbal assurance is not a good idea - especially if there's a language barrier. Each office will have a printed list of requirements. If you get that list, and provide everything listed, you will have a greater chance of not needing extra trips.

Agree on this - but reminds me of doing that once, then getting a different list (with no form-number) when it was time to submit the application.  And the marriage-based change all the time - they haven't even gotten to hitting him up for a witness(es), pictures in special poses / rooms, etc - possibly may have been requested on his next visit, after completing the first list.

I do not purport to know if Hat Yai is running a scam, or it was just honest mis-communiation / ignorance of a staff member on his first visit.  We don't have enough reports from that office to know - but best to be mentally prepared for the worst, then happy if it all works out.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, elviajero said:

Each office will have a printed list of requirements.

 

FWIW, in many years of dealing with them, I've never ever seen a printed list of requirements of what BKK CW wants for their various applications.

[arithai12]

3 hours ago, Sprog71 said:

1. They wanted original English Marriage certificate and rejected a Thai translation endorsed by British and Thai embassies.

As you are planning to use another route for your remaining time in Thailand before returning to the UK, this is now probably redundant... anyway I note that what my wife and I (married outside Thailand) have is a copy of the certificate issued by the Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs. We have always found that it was readily accepted in the few occasions we needed to use it for official paperwork.

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, JackThompson said:

2 hours ago, elviajero said:

And many more have their applications processed without a problem. You are generalising based on your own bad experience.

I read the reports here, many of which tally with my experience.  Marriage-based never had a lot of bad-reports in the past.  Now they do.

People have always, on occasion, had problems with all types of extension. If there are more reports now it will be because there are more applications being made. The only problems, usually, are in not providing what's required, once the requirements are met it is, usually plain sailing.

 

1 hour ago, JackThompson said:

Agree on this - but reminds me of doing that once, then getting a different list (with no form-number) when it was time to submit the application.  And the marriage-based change all the time - they haven't even gotten to hitting him up for a witness(es), pictures in special poses / rooms, etc - possibly may have been requested on his next visit, after completing the first list.

I do not purport to know if Hat Yai is running a scam, or it was just honest mis-communiation / ignorance of a staff member on his first visit.  We don't have enough reports from that office to know - but best to be mentally prepared for the worst, then happy if it all works out.

The first thing people must accept is that things change. And because of the autonomy office bosses have the requirements will differ, and can/will be changed without notice. But for the most part the standard requirements stay the same.

 

Being prepared to be given the runaround is the right attitude. But IMO the runaround is not because they want to decline the application, but the complete opposite. They want to get the application accepted by the boss up the line. Thai bureaucracy is a nightmare for Thais too, it's not unique to immigration or them having some kind of anti-foreigner agenda.

 

You need to prepare as best you can and expect to take a couple of visits.

[ubonjoe]

9 hours ago, Sprog71 said:

Refused

1. They wanted original English Marriage certificate and rejected a Thai translation endorsed by British and Thai embassies. 

2. They wanted a paper sighed by a local Amphur that we were not divorced.

3. Would not accept a joint bank account showing well above Bht 800.000 and showing a transaction on the day plus a letter from the Bangkok Bank which referred them to the pass book but did not include the balance. 

4 Required copies of every page of bank pass book going back to 2011.

1. You marriage certificate should not be needed it you were applying for an extension based upon retirement. I assume your wife entered using her Thai passport.

2. That would  be more than just a paper from an Amphoe. If you were applying based upon marriage you would need a Kor Ror 22 foreign marriage registry which requires your marriage certificate to be legalized plus the translation to Thai.

3. They might accept it if you topped up the account to 1.6 million baht.

4. Offices often want copies of every page that has a Thai visa or stamp on it.

[jacko45k]

6 hours ago, elviajero said:

The only problems, usually, are in not providing what's required, once the requirements are met it is, usually plain sailing.

Sadly the requirements change, vary from region to region, and are interpreted (sometimes erroneously) by the odd IO. Not much consolation to the applicant wondering how he will be able to live in his home for the next year.

My experiences match what you say though, retirement extension based on money in the bank in Jomtiem, always smooth. Now and again some new copy of something is asked for, I just go get it. Hard to meet constantly varying requirements.

Edited January 23, 2019 by jacko45k

[cornishcarlos]

9 hours ago, Sprog71 said:

The truth is I do not really care.

My wife is more upset than I am. Thank you JT for a constructive reply. I will take the IO advice and go elsewhere obtain a 60 day tourist visa and then return for a 30 day extension to see me through to mid April when I return to the UK.

I must say it is very sad that for the first time in over forty years I have felt unwelcome in Thailand.

 

 

You can obtain a 60 day extension of any entry type, to visit your wife. Cost 1900 baht

[UKresonant]

10 hours ago, Sprog71 said:

2. They wanted a paper sighed by a local Amphur that we were not divorced

How would the local Amphur know if you were divorced or not, what a load of rubbish....!

[poohy]

11 hours ago, elviajero said:

IO's prefer processing retirement extensions only because it's less paperwork and they are under less scrutiny fro their bosses. They do not dislike/punish marriage based applications that meet their requirements.

 

Sounds to me  like you a budding immigration officer or an immigration apologist.

Guy here in PKK married to thai lady who worked in  thai embassy in UK and lived in UK 25 years has just given up his marriage visa on his wifes request  as its too much hassle to do now with discrimination and law changes seemingly hourly

[FritsSikkink]

3 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

1. You marriage certificate should not be needed it you were applying for an extension based upon retirement. I assume your wife entered using her Thai passport.

2. That would  be more than just a paper from an Amphoe. If you were applying based upon marriage you would need a Kor Ror 22 foreign marriage registry which requires your marriage certificate to be legalized plus the translation to Thai.

3. They might accept it if you topped up the account to 1.6 million baht.

4. Offices often want copies of every page that has a Thai visa or stamp on it.

From the OP:

"Today I applied for an extension to a single entry O visa (marriage) at Hat Yai." 

[KiChakayan]

11 hours ago, elviajero said:

And many more have their applications processed without a problem. You are generalising based on your own bad experience.

Indeed, at my first application in Kap Choeng we had some sloppy paperwork, the pics particularly, and they went out of their way to help the newbies we were and save us an extra trip. One officer went through my wife's facebook et picked a few photos we could get printed across the road. 

Edited January 23, 2019 by KiChakayan

[ubonjoe]

58 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

From the OP:

"Today I applied for an extension to a single entry O visa (marriage) at Hat Yai." 

That does not mean he was applying for an extension of stay based upon marriage since he also stated he had over 800k baht in the bank.-

[Sprog71]

Ubonjoe, Yes it does. ????

800k Baht equates to 400 Baht each in a joint account with my wife, in my book anyway. The IO seemed to agree this last November on my pre application visit but did not confirm it yesterday as she went off on one  regarding the fact Bangkok Bank had not stated balances on the covering letter to my two accounts Both books showed transactions on the day of application.

 

The IO told my wife to obtain confirmation that we are not divorced at the local Amphoe in Hat Yai which she said was only 10 mins motor bike ride away. That seemed pointless to me as when in Thailand we live in Singha Nakhon and deal with the Amphoe there. Not that they would know anyway.

During the visit she said to my wife in Thai "tell your husband to keep a cool heart" She also said how handsome and articulate I was for a person of my age compared to Thai!!  Bless her. ????  

 

[FritsSikkink]

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

That does not mean he was applying for an extension of stay based upon marriage since he also stated he had over 800k baht in the bank.-

Yes, it does, he specifically said so. That he has 800K in the bank doesn't mean he is going for retirement (joined account 2 x 400 = 800)

[thaipo7]

Why didn't you go to the Embassy before 12-31-2018 and get a new Income Letter?  Then go to Immigration and they would have given you a year more on the Retirement Visa.

 

I went to Korat Immigration on 01-15-2019.  Went and got my new Income Letter in Nov 2018.  Had two students there fill out my paperwork and right away went to the table where the papers are checked and signed by two higher up, paid the fees for the Retirement Visa and the Immigrant Visa allowing me to come leave and come back once during the next year.

 

My best visit during the past 10 years.

[JackThompson]

12 hours ago, elviajero said:

The first thing people must accept is that things change. And because of the autonomy office bosses have the requirements will differ, and can/will be changed without notice. But for the most part the standard requirements stay the same.

True that they never skip the published requirements for honest, in-person application - but this is just the starting-point where the "fun" begins, at some offices. 

The "autonomy" is the problem.  Adding "extra requirements" needs to become a firing-offense, if the "push to agent" extortion is ever going to be stopped.

 

12 hours ago, elviajero said:

Being prepared to be given the runaround is the right attitude. But IMO the runaround is not because they want to decline the application, but the complete opposite. They want to get the application accepted by the boss up the line. Thai bureaucracy is a nightmare for Thais too, it's not unique to immigration or them having some kind of anti-foreigner agenda.

Agent-applications without any of those extras, and even core-requirements skipped, get accepted up-the-line without any problem.  That would not be a problem to me, if not for agents becoming the only way to get an extension without going through hell, in some offices.

 

It seems the core-nature of this bureaucracy is not "checking every box every time" - it is "where's the brown envelope with this application?"  If missing, new-box after new-box is added to increase the frequency of envelopes.  Many "unpublished requirements" could originate levels-up from the front-line IO - maybe district or higher level.  But some reported appear to be "per-office" - indicating a local agenda/initiative at play.

 

I tend to think of the anti-foreigner aspect as pablum for the front-line - to keep them motivated to do their master's bidding.  Throughout history, demonizing / de-humanizing "the enemy" is the norm, when it comes to persuading "regular folks" to hurt people with whom they have more in common than with those giving them the orders to attack.  But, there could be "true believers" in such an agenda higher-up, for all we know.

 

25 minutes ago, thaipo7 said:

Why didn't you go to the Embassy before 12-31-2018 and get a new Income Letter? 

He had the money in the bank already - and staff had told him the double-minimum amount in the joint-account was ok (sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't).

 

1 hour ago, KiChakayan said:

Indeed, at my first application in Kap Choeng we had some sloppy paperwork, the pics particularly, and they went out of their way to help the newbies we were and save us an extra trip. One officer went through my wife's facebook et picked a few photos we could get printed across the road. 

There seem to be a few good offices like this - Ubon seems to be another.  Hopefully, the good locations don't get "cracked down upon" by the higher-ups, for their lack of animosity.

[gamini]

16 hours ago, JackThompson said:

They make it as hard as possible if you are married to a Thai in many offices now.  At some offices, even if you meet their last list of demands, they could change them once or twice more, adding more to each visit.  Hopefully yours is not one of the bad ones.

 

The amphur will issue you a Kor Ror 2 (your #2 document), but also probably want to see the original marriage certificate as well as the Thai-Translated one.  The original is also needed for a Non-O Visa from a nearby consulate.  Do Not let them keep the original marriage-certificate at the Amphoe (has happened to some folks, leading to problems later) - only a copy of it.

 

If you can put 800K in the bank, seasoned 3 mo, in your own name only - use this and go for an extension based on retirement, instead.  Retirement is a same-day or next-day extension vs "30-days under consideration" for marriage-based, and much less hassle in general (the opposite of that which logic or compassion would indicate).

The reason they make it hard for marriage visa extensions is that the system is very much abused. Many marriages are just to get a Visa.  

The guy said he spent so many millions in Thailand, then why doesn't he get a retirement Visa as you suggest. It's very easy and there are never any problems.