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My trip to Jomtien Immigration

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3 hours ago, JackThompson said:

IMHO, anyone who believes this sort of thing should be put in jail and forced to do hard-labor until they get some humility for those who had a harder life, yet certainly deserve some better times at the end. 

 

Ideally, this would be accomplished with the use of a time-machine - transporting the offender to a Chinese re-education camp of 1950s vintage.  They were pretty good at teaching humility (see the film "The Last Emperor") - even though those running that system were (still are) pampered-ass hypocrites, who merely usurped the place of the former elite, under a new banner of lies.

 

Good thing neither of us gets to make the rules 😜

 

But seriously, if you mean "doesn't have 800K worth of assets" that is one thing.  But "has 800K to spare, which they can put in a foreign-country bank-account - that is something else entirely.

 

It is not for me to say how much "spare money to put into a foreign-country bank account" a person should have, before beginning to enjoy their lives.

 

Better not ever retire then - just work and hate every dang-day - dreading the next work-week - until you die - since you can never have enough to cover every possibility. 

 

A bargain for someone with many times that in investments - perhaps.  But, you are missing the point.  The rules invited people to come here and retire if they had 65K in total gross income.  People made plans based on that - bought condos, cars, etc - and set up a life here. 

 

But now, TI and the embassies have conspired to deny that promise.  In the case of our State-Depts, to rip us up by the roots and re-plant us somewhere elsewhere they find us "more useful."  And in the case of TI, to extort us via agents.

 

When the greed-addict tolerance of those injecting agent-money adjusts to the latest increase from this letter-change, an increase quite possible, in order to increase the dosage some more.  That's how it is with addictions - whatever it is, it is never enough - until it becomes toxic, and they bring the whole thing down on their own heads - which will happen, eventually.

 

 

Sounds like a good anti-farang piece of propaganda for the nightly news - to help cover for our extortion by agents.  If true (probably happened somewhere, at least once), and if they used an income-letter with fake info, they should be referred for prosecution, if not also prosecuted here. 

 

There is no "foreigner health-welfare" service here.  If a foreigner cannot pay for their care, they won't get much if any here, and will be quickly sent home.  And as I have posted elsewhere, if this is really a problem, and they wanted to solve it, a simple charge/mo for every foreigner - covering the cost of any of these rare "stabilize and send home" cases - would be very inexpensive per-person/mo.  Young tourists in moto or jetski accidents could require intensive-care to save, but would also cover the rare old-codger with a broken-leg - even including their air-fare home.

 

Also, if this were a real / widespread problem, step one would be shutting down the elite visa, since it allows extended-stays without annual verification of finances of any sort.  Next, reinstate the income-letters - which were a better indicator of income that sending money in circles - and start referring letter-fakers for prosecution.  And most importantly, run sting-operations on agents and their IO buddies, until that entire network of corruption-money is rooted-out from the bottom-up, and all "extra requirement" tricks, used to force honest-applicants to agents, are ended.
 

Or foreigners were brought in to take your job and/or drive down your wages, or your job was shipped to China, or you had a medical-problem that wiped you out (or two), or your real-estate was driven under water in 2008 (due to the action of criminal banksters who never went to jail), or ... etc, etc. 

 

Of course, none of that is Thailand's problem.  But the rule here was 65K Baht/yr in total income or combo-method reaching 800K/yr, so anyone with that should not have their life here destroyed.

 

No, they don't - not in Thailand - not even close to that.  Some folks I met, working in the bigger hotels (where the Chinese tour-buses go), earned as little as 8K or 9K a month for 12-hour days 6 days/wk - worked like dogs, too - "faster faster" to reduce staff to the bare-minimum.  Then, complain the Thais weren't good enough, and hire even more desperate foreign-workers who would accept even less.

 

The smaller guesthouses serving Westerners (being driven out of business by immigration) tended to pay about 13K/mo for a lighter workload.  Wait-staff at restaurants - similar - much better where good-tipping Westerners eat - barely-survive wages where the tour-buses stop.

 

And all of these - even worst-cases - are making MORE than many not working in tourism.  A recent guest / relative came home for new-year; she works "industrial" in Bangkok, is paid even less than Chinese-tourist serving wages, and lives in what amounts to a huge dorm, in order to survive and send anything home.

 

Each one of us - even those spending only 30K, is boosting many Thai livelihoods to well above what they could otherwise earn.  Throwing us out is directly-betraying their own citizens; they know this full well - and they just don't care.

 

??

 

Covered above.  I never underestimate the harm greed could do - so you could be right. 

 

As to "saving" - always a good idea.  That is certainly better done while living here, than in our passport-countries, where overhead-expenses are much higher. 

 

The best plan would be to save money in accounts over there, while spending less on overhead while living over here.  In fact, many do exactly this, but the "show foreign transfers" new-rule is a major impediment to those savings plans.

What a rant. Your ridiculous anger and excuses for virtually everything in life must be worth at least a million ( Vietnamese dong) 

How does one already in a hospital just get home lol?? Is it cheap to send a patient in a hospital back to England? Maybe a go fund me page every single time it happens? Do you think every single poor old person here is that way because of just having hard times? Do you actually know people who are just foolish and stupid in their life? You seem to know all these other types of people but not the types the majority of us have encountered. To think someone spending 30k here a month is a huge benefit to the Thai population as you mention is bordering on arrogance. Believe me I rarely use that term. 

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Read sections 2.18, Procedures (2) and 2.22, Procedures (1) of the new amendment.
They even give an example if the extension application is less than 1 year since the amendment was issued.
It specifically details income deposits in a Thai bank and certified letter.
 
The reference to income from an Embassy letter is detailed separately in (3) and (2) respectively.
 
The one reported case of a combo application was rejected because by the OP's own admission he hadn't deposited 65K per month, each and every month over the 3 month period.
Huh?
Combo method wouldn't require even one deposit of 65k per month. Do you even know what the combo method is?

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10 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Combo method wouldn't require even one deposit of 65k per month. Do you even know what the combo method is? 

I am certain he knows what the combination option is. I think the 65k baht was an error when he wrote the reply.

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Which is why the combo-method is critical to many.  See the immigration-dictionary definition of "loophole," to understand why some offices now claim it doesn't apply to the new income-method.
Yes it is very important to many. Referring to written rules is one thing but actual enforcement practices all over Thailand is another. Yes the combo method without embassy letter appears at this time to be the most potentially problematical of all the methods.

Regarding the leniency memo that is only about not requiring the full monthly deposits for income method no embassy letter the first year because it's a new thing. Combo method is not explicitly mentioned in any of the recent methods covering income method no embassy letter. UJ is confident that it will stand with no embassy letter. I am less certain. In any case of course with a combo method no embassy letter you would need monthly transfers in a similar way as for the full 65k income method but for combo no embassy letter amounts less 65k would be accepted. Combo method with embassy income letter stands as before with no required imports at all.
Why do I repeat this stuff as I do?
Because people are understandably getting confused as there is a very new situation now for income and combo applications without embassy letters.

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9 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Huh?
Combo method wouldn't require even one deposit of 65k per month. Do you even know what the combo method is?

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Duh! You just don't get it.

 

In reference to the one OP who tried the combo method and was refused ……. read carefully!

The OP had only been in Thailand for 3 months.

He deposited 650K in a Thai bank which was season.

He presented proof of his 'funds' in the bank and 3 monthly transfers (income), but because the 3 incomes did not meet the 65K per month min income requirement set by the new rules, his application was refused.

The combo requirement of funds deposited in a Thai bank and proof of income totalling 800K per annum didn't apply because he only been in Thailand 3 months.

They used that 3 month period for there calculations using the new min income levels from the time of his arrival.

 

Not stating that was correct, Immigration appeared confused, but you keep using that one example as your basis for 'combo's will be problematic without an Embassy letter'

 

Let's wait until someone has been on a retirement extension for 12 full months and applies using the combo method. Only then will we gat an idea if Immigration are getting their knickers in a twist with confusion over the new amended order, which IMHO shouldn't affect applying under the combo method.

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Duh! You just don't get it.

 

In reference to the one OP who tried the combo method and was refused ……. read carefully!

The OP had only been in Thailand for 3 months.

He deposited 650K in a Thai bank which was season.

He presented proof of his 'funds' in the bank and 3 monthly transfers (income), but because the 3 incomes did not meet the 65K per month min income requirement set by the new rules, his application was refused.

The combo requirement of funds deposited in a Thai bank and proof of income totalling 800K per annum didn't apply because he only been in Thailand 3 months.

They used that 3 month period for there calculations using the new min income levels from the time of his arrival.

 

Not stating that was correct, Immigration appeared confused, but you keep using that one example as your basis for 'combo's will be problematic without an Embassy letter'

 

Let's wait until someone has been on a retirement extension for 12 full months and applies using the combo method. Only then will we gat an idea if Immigration are getting their knickers in a twist with confusion over the new amended order, which IMHO shouldn't affect applying under the combo method.

I do not accept that explanation at all. That was clearly a valid attempt at a combo application without embassy letter. Again he wouldn't have needed even one monthly transfer of 65k baht based on that bank account balance. I agree that immigration did not know what they were doing. How could they? There are no guidelines got them about the specific rules for a combo no embassy letter.

 

I get what you're saying about the timing. If had three months of 50k baht that should have been sufficient of they weren't annualizing the deposits..

 

You're kind of making the same point I have myself made many times. Even with the leniency memo there is a total lack of clarity on how they are going to annualized different sum monthly deposits for combo applications without a 12 month history. I actually don't blame immigration if they reject many of these that should based on common sense be accepted . They need more clarity just the same as applicants do.

Currently it seems a right mess and I don't see how applicants for combo method no embassy letters with less than 12 monthly transfers can have any confidence at all about being accepted.

If they want full confidence they may want to try the 800k bank seasoned method this time if they can as we wait for more clarity to hopefully develop.

 

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55 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Huh?
Combo method wouldn't require even one deposit of 65k per month. Do you even know what the combo method is?

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

No, it shouldn't.

The OP provided proof of 650K funds and an income over 150K for the 3 month period.

Immigration appear to have rejected the application based on the fact it wasn't 3 x 65K income deposits.

(One deposit was under 65K according to the OP)

They seem to have confused the existing combo method with the min monthly income under the amended rules.

 

They were wrong in my opinion.

That one example though does not lay the basis that further combo applications will be problematic without an Embassy letter.

 

The Embassy letters state an annual income of xxxxx in £, Euros etc.

Immigration then times that by the current BKK TT exchange rate to convert to baht.

If you showed 400K deposited, then were looking for an income of 400K over the 12 month period.

 

With incomes now having to be transferred into a Thai bank, it should be easier for Immigration to calculate the 'funds' and 'monthly deposits' because the statement will already be in BHT. No conversion necessary.

Two separate letters from the bank required.

Edited by Tanoshi

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23 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Duh! You just don't get it.

 

In reference to the one OP who tried the combo method and was refused ……. read carefully!

The OP had only been in Thailand for 3 months.

He deposited 650K in a Thai bank which was season.

He presented proof of his 'funds' in the bank and 3 monthly transfers (income), but because the 3 incomes did not meet the 65K per month min income requirement set by the new rules, his application was refused.

The combo requirement of funds deposited in a Thai bank and proof of income totalling 800K per annum didn't apply because he only been in Thailand 3 months.

They used that 3 month period for there calculations using the new min income levels from the time of his arrival.

 

Not stating that was correct, Immigration appeared confused, but you keep using that one example as your basis for 'combo's will be problematic without an Embassy letter'

 

Let's wait until someone has been on a retirement extension for 12 full months and applies using the combo method. Only then will we gat an idea if Immigration are getting their knickers in a twist with confusion over the new amended order, which IMHO shouldn't affect applying under the combo method.

Does the combo method not mean that someone must put 65k per month minimum into a Thai bank from abroad for nine months 65k x 8 = 520k., and then three months before the extension is due, top that up to 800k with 280k .

Or could they put say 50 k for 8 months = 400k and top up by 400k in month 9.

Surely better to do 12 x 65k =780k.

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No, it shouldn't.
The OP provided proof of 650K funds and an income over 150K for the 3 month period.
Immigration appear to have rejected the application based on the fact it wasn't 3 x 65K income deposits.
(One deposit was under 65K according to the OP)
They seem to have confused the existing combo method with the min monthly income under the amended rules.
 
They were wrong in my opinion.
That one example though does not lay the basis that further combo applications will be problematic without an Embassy letter.
 
The Embassy letters state an annual income of xxxxx in £, Euros etc.
Immigration then times that by the current BKK TT exchange rate to convert to baht.
If you showed 400K deposited, then were looking for an income of 400K over the 12 month period.
 
With incomes now having to be transferred into a Thai bank, it should be easier for Immigration to calculate the 'funds' and 'monthly deposits' because the statement will already be in BHT. No conversion necessary.
Two separate letters from the bank required.
Yes our opinions match for a moment. Hold the presses. I also agree they were wrong seeking 65k monthly deposits in that combo case based on common sense assumptions about how combo method no embassy letter applications should be enforced in this case without a 12 month history. However and it's a big however. They actually weren't wrong in the sense that we're making a lot of assumptions about stuff that isn't written down expecting them to do the same. Too much really to expect of them. They tend to enforce clear non ambiguous rules. The current state of combo applications without embassy letters is not like that.

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5 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

Does the combo method not mean that someone must put 65k per month minimum into a Thai bank from abroad for nine months 65k x 8 = 520k., and then three months before the extension is due, top that up to 800k with 280k .

Or could they put say 50 k for 8 months = 400k and top up by 400k in month 9.

Surely better to do 12 x 65k =780k.

Under existing order 327-2557 section 2.22 Retirement.

(5) Must have an annual earning and fluids deposited with a bank totaling no less than
Baht 800,0000 as of the filing date.

 

The amendment to order 138-2557 shouldn't change that.

The amendment only stipulates that the required annual earnings will now only be accepted if transferred to a Thai bank, with statement and Thai bank letter as proof, or alternatively an Embassy Income letter.

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6 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

No it does not.

Also not correct but closer.

The combination option is a total of annual income (12 months of transfers into the country) and money in the bank totaling 800k baht. It is unclear how they would handle one that had less than 12 months of transfers until the end of this year.

 

OK Joe, but if someone does not know how much his 12 month imports will eventually be, how would they know how much to top-up in month 9

Edited by wgdanson

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1 hour ago, alex8912 said:

What a rant. Your ridiculous anger and excuses for virtually everything in life must be worth at least a million ( Vietnamese dong) 

How does one already in a hospital just get home lol?? Is it cheap to send a patient in a hospital back to England? Maybe a go fund me page every single time it happens?

No, some rare cases would not be inexpensive - but most would be.  What I suggested to cover all situations was ...

5 hours ago, JackThompson said:

... if this is really a problem, and they wanted to solve it, a simple charge/mo for every foreigner - covering the cost of any of these rare "stabilize and send home" cases - would be very inexpensive per-person/mo.  Young tourists in moto or jetski accidents could require intensive-care to save, but would also cover the rare old-codger with a broken-leg - even including their air-fare home.

Obviously, the broken-leg case you mentioned, could be solved with a splint (not even a cast), and a flight out - as soon as it was determined the foreigner could not pay for care.  The 19 yo on gap-year, who wrecks a moto w/o a helmet, would be more expensive.

 

In general, I don't like collectivism, but if Thailand is really inundated with charity-medical cases - making us a burden - this would be the way to solve that problem.

 

1 hour ago, alex8912 said:

Do you think every single poor old person here is that way because of just having hard times? Do you actually know people who are just foolish and stupid in their life? You seem to know all these other types of people but not the types the majority of us have encountered.

We have all seen the town-drunk types.  But, I suppose I have had the benefit of being around a  lot of quality folks - salt of the Earth types who worked their backsides off, only to get shafted by forces they could not possibly affect/control. 

 

And, sometimes, after such events, they become the types you describe.  I saw that a few times, when the illegal-aliens were allowed to flood-in, use fake docs (I would go to prison), and destroy the formerly middle-class construction industry in the USA.  Also, there are some good studies showing where the opioid-epidemic hit the USA the hardest - precisely where the jobs were ripped-out - often sent to China and Mexico.

 

1 hour ago, alex8912 said:

To think someone spending 30k here a month is a huge benefit to the Thai population as you mention is bordering on arrogance. Believe me I rarely use that term. 

Then I can only assume you have not met the Thais who depended on the jobs which are now gone, due to immigration "cracking down" on longer-staying / frequent tourists.  I have - watched the businesses close - saw the Thais lose their careers, and head back to subsistence-farms.

 

As I described with the "industrial" worker who has family in my area - would absolutely love to make nearly double working at one of those now-closed businesses, which used to serve the expats whom immigration has pushed out of Thailand.  Immigration is not only hated by us, rest assured.  If I am eventually forced out, everyone in this area who benefits from my spending would not be pleased.  Every farang who gets this treatment leaves a wake of hurt and angry Thais behind.

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