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BANGKOK 27 May 2019 18:01
robblok

The Law of Metabolic Individuality (fat loss ect)

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I don't get it how carbs can ever work for someone who is diabetic. Do you take medicine to combat your diabetic. Because if you don't then i am impressed then you control your diabetic with carbs something that is unheard of. 

 

It is often heard of people not taking medicine and eating no carbs and controlling their disease like that but not with carbs.

 

Again it depends of course on how many and what kind of carbs how much of an insulin response people get. My brother is diabetic and can take carbs.. but only because he takes medicine without it would be real bad for him.

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15 hours ago, FracturedRabbit said:

"Insulin resistance is caused by excess fat". Sorry, this is completely untrue.
When glucose arrives in the bloodstream, insulin is released by the pancreas to direct the glucose to muscle and fat cells. Glucose comes from carbohydrates/sugar. An intake of protein also requires insulin for metabolism, but to a lesser extent and with limited effect on blood sugar. An intake of fat requires minimal insulin and has no effect on blood sugar. Insulin resistance occurs when the system is consistently overloaded with demands for insulin leading to a rise in blood sugar levels. Fat intake has absolutely nothing to do with this.
Here's some reading for you, published by NIH: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1204764/

Please share your best research that counters current medical science by proving that insulin resistance is caused by excess fat. I would like to read this because my diet is mainly fat (including, horror!, nuts) and my metabolism is healthy with very low HbA1C; so I am obviously a medical freak!

 

"he key point the low carb people miss is that long term high fat will kill you". Yeah, we are all stupid.

Fat being the problem is completely true - it clogs up the body and creates insulin resistance this is a fact.

 

What you are talking about is correct but only part of the puzzle...

 

Lots of goods research out there but let's keep it simple:

 

Dr Esselstyn is a very serious doctor with years of good results:

http://www.dresselstyn.com/site/plant-based-doctor/

 

Dr Dean Ornish is also good but you might not like him as he goes into exercise and spiritual lifestyle as part of his program which is accepted by Medicare after years of study.

 

Lots of good cardiologists will talk about the bad health effects long term of excess fat.

 

More important is the trend which does not support high fat diets.

 

I am happy that your Hba1c is low and I hope that your current good health continues for the rest of your life.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, robblok said:

I don't get it how carbs can ever work for someone who is diabetic. Do you take medicine to combat your diabetic. Because if you don't then i am impressed then you control your diabetic with carbs something that is unheard of. 

 

It is often heard of people not taking medicine and eating no carbs and controlling their disease like that but not with carbs.

 

Again it depends of course on how many and what kind of carbs how much of an insulin response people get. My brother is diabetic and can take carbs.. but only because he takes medicine without it would be real bad for him.

I do not take medicine and when I was taking medicine I was eating too much fat and getting sicker.

 

Now with a low fat plant-based diet I am getting better.

 

There is a lot of information out there and the trend is supporting this kind of diet.

 

Of course, as you said you need a balance which is why I agreed with you.

 

Dr Neal Bernard has written books and has many video interviews on the internet he would be a good place to start.

 

There is a great deal of information out there about how a high carb diet helps with insulin resistance but many who like meat and processed food don't want to read about it...

 

let's not leave out exercise it is a big part of the solution and is fantastic.

 

 

Edited by TravelerEastWest

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1 minute ago, TravelerEastWest said:

I do not take medicine and when I was taking medicine I was eating too much fat and getting sicker.

 

Now with a low fat plant-based diet I am getting better.

 

There is a lot of information out there and the trend is supporting this kind of diet.

 

Of course, as you said you need a balance which is why I agreed with you.

 

Dr Neal Bernard has written books and has many video interviews on the internet he would be a good place to start.

 

let's not leave out exercise it is a big part of the solution and is fantastic.

Exercise is great for getting healthy for fat loss its not that great changes in diet work better. I exercise my fair share and agree that it helps for many things. 

 

Personally i just keep my own diet and that is quite easy i stay away from processed carbs eat low carb on non training days higher carbs before training and i might change that up when it suits me. I don't fear carbs, I don't fear meat or fat. Its all about what kind and how much. 

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This doctor talks more about heart disease but the cure is the same for most chronic disease.

 

Exercise is magic as you know it helps so much in so many ways - but yes, a good diet is more important.

 

There is so much serious research out there about the benefits of whole plant based diets being best - now if your diet is mostly good and you exercise a lot then all is well... smiling.

 

Articles & Studies

Articles on the Arrest and Reversal Study:

A Way to Prevent CAD?     NEWThe Journal of Family Practice. July 2014 Vol 63, No 7 page 257

The Nutritional Reversal of Cardiovascular Disease — Fact or Fiction? Three Case Reports     NEWExperimental and Clinical Cardiology. July 2014 Vol 20 issue 7. page 1901

Is the Present Therapy for Coronary Artery Disease the Radical Mastectomy of the Twenty-First Century?The Am J Cardiol. 2010: 106: 902-904

A Strategy to Arrest and Reverse Coronary Artery Disease: A 5 -Year Longitudinal Study of a Single Physician’s PracticeEsselstyn CB Jr. et al: The Journal of Family Practice 1995 December; 41(6): 560-68

Updating a 12 -Year Experience With Arrest and Reversal Therapy for Coronary Heart Disease (An Overdue Requiem for Palliative Cardiology)Esselstyn CB Jr. The Am J of Cardiology 1999 August 1; 84:339-34

before_after

Resolving the Coronary Artery Disease Epidemic through Plant-Based Nutrition(with photos of disease reversal) Esselstyn CB Jr: Preventive Cardiology 2001;4: 171-177

In Cholesterol Lowering, Moderation KillsEsselstyn CB Jr. Cleve Clinic J of Med 2000 August; 67 (8): 560-564

Selected Articles:

IS OIL HEALTHY? Esselstyn CB Jr., International Journal of Disease Reversal and Prevention, Vol 1 No 1

Beyond Surgery Presidential AddressEsselstyn CB Jr. Surgery Dec 1991; 110(6): 923-27

More Than Coronary Artery DiseaseEsselstyn CB Jr. : The Am J of Cardiology 1998 November 26; 82 (10B):5T-9T

Changing the Treatment Paradigm for Coronary Artery DiseaseEsselstyn CB Jr.: The Am J of Cardiology 1998 November 26; 82(10B): 1T-4T

 

Reflections:

How to Keep David Letterman (and yourself) Off the Operating Table

A Revolution to Restore America’s Health

Huffington Post Interview with Dr. Esselstyn

The Collapse of Cardiology: A Time to Rejoice?

Olympic Reflections 50 Years Later

Plant-based Nutrition

News and Results

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13 minutes ago, TravelerEastWest said:

This doctor talks more about heart disease but the cure is the same for most chronic disease.

 

Exercise is magic as you know it helps so much in so many ways - but yes, a good diet is more important.

 

There is so much serious research out there about the benefits of whole plant based diets being best - now if your diet is mostly good and you exercise a lot then all is well... smiling.

 

Articles & Studies

Articles on the Arrest and Reversal Study:

A Way to Prevent CAD?     NEWThe Journal of Family Practice. July 2014 Vol 63, No 7 page 257

The Nutritional Reversal of Cardiovascular Disease — Fact or Fiction? Three Case Reports     NEWExperimental and Clinical Cardiology. July 2014 Vol 20 issue 7. page 1901

Is the Present Therapy for Coronary Artery Disease the Radical Mastectomy of the Twenty-First Century?The Am J Cardiol. 2010: 106: 902-904

A Strategy to Arrest and Reverse Coronary Artery Disease: A 5 -Year Longitudinal Study of a Single Physician’s PracticeEsselstyn CB Jr. et al: The Journal of Family Practice 1995 December; 41(6): 560-68

Updating a 12 -Year Experience With Arrest and Reversal Therapy for Coronary Heart Disease (An Overdue Requiem for Palliative Cardiology)Esselstyn CB Jr. The Am J of Cardiology 1999 August 1; 84:339-34

before_after

Resolving the Coronary Artery Disease Epidemic through Plant-Based Nutrition(with photos of disease reversal) Esselstyn CB Jr: Preventive Cardiology 2001;4: 171-177

In Cholesterol Lowering, Moderation KillsEsselstyn CB Jr. Cleve Clinic J of Med 2000 August; 67 (8): 560-564

Selected Articles:

IS OIL HEALTHY? Esselstyn CB Jr., International Journal of Disease Reversal and Prevention, Vol 1 No 1

Beyond Surgery Presidential AddressEsselstyn CB Jr. Surgery Dec 1991; 110(6): 923-27

More Than Coronary Artery DiseaseEsselstyn CB Jr. : The Am J of Cardiology 1998 November 26; 82 (10B):5T-9T

Changing the Treatment Paradigm for Coronary Artery DiseaseEsselstyn CB Jr.: The Am J of Cardiology 1998 November 26; 82(10B): 1T-4T

 

Reflections:

How to Keep David Letterman (and yourself) Off the Operating Table

A Revolution to Restore America’s Health

Huffington Post Interview with Dr. Esselstyn

The Collapse of Cardiology: A Time to Rejoice?

Olympic Reflections 50 Years Later

Plant-based Nutrition

News and Results

I honestly don't see the point in not eating meat, plenty of proof its good for you (depending on the kind and quantity). Most plant based proteins are not as good as proteins from meat. Its a fact most vegans have a hard time to accept. Its also a fact that vegans are often deficient in many things so why go so extreme if its not needed. 

 

My diet is good and includes quite a bit of salad and broccoli and I exercise 3 times a week in my home gym and the other 4 days i walk with some heavy weights in the park for cardio. So id say my diet and exercise are good enough. 

 

I don't want to sound boring but all your evidence is ancient. Most of it anyway science moved on just so you know. Just look at the dates of your evidence. 

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19 hours ago, robblok said:

I honestly don't see the point in not eating meat, plenty of proof its good for you (depending on the kind and quantity). Most plant based proteins are not as good as proteins from meat. Its a fact most vegans have a hard time to accept. Its also a fact that vegans are often deficient in many things so why go so extreme if its not needed. 

 

My diet is good and includes quite a bit of salad and broccoli and I exercise 3 times a week in my home gym and the other 4 days i walk with some heavy weights in the park for cardio. So id say my diet and exercise are good enough. 

 

I don't want to sound boring but all your evidence is ancient. Most of it anyway science moved on just so you know. Just look at the dates of your evidence. 

Plenty of proof to study that meat and dairy is bad for you both new and old but more importantly, the trend is away from meat.

 

lots of old and new information out there just mentioning some areas to start. Dr Esselstyn is someone with a solid background - are you saying he is making up his research and medical results?

 

Plant-based proteins are fine you don't need to eat all your amino acids at one time - lots of solid research for this.

 

A vegan whole plant based diet (not a vegan junk food diet) is often deficient in Vitamin B-12 true and occasionally a few other things so simply supplementing is a good idea.

 

I am not commenting on your personal diet etc only general ideas for those who are not aware of the truth...

 

Perhaps the most recent and best research for fat causing diabetes is by Dr Roy Newcastle in the UK:

https://www.ncl.ac.uk/research/impact/casestudies/diabetes/

 

"Type 2 diabetes has long been regarded as a chronic disease and one with a complex, obscure cause. However, research by Newcastle University’s Professor Roy Taylor using innovative magnetic resonance methods has confirmed his Twin Cycle Hypothesis – that Type 2 diabetes is simply caused by excess fat within the liver and pancreas. In the liver, this fat causes a poor response to insulin and it produces too much glucose. In the pancreas, the fat inhibits insulin secretion. By clearly defining the cause of the disease, treatment can be planned to reverse the processes."

 

Note he is not a vegetarian and seems to be focusing on a low calorie diet to remove fat.

 

My point is for diabetes fat will harm and kill you.

 

More and more this is becoming clear. 

 

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45 minutes ago, TravelerEastWest said:

Plenty of proof to study that meat and dairy is bad for you both new and old but more importantly, the trend is away from meat.

 

lots of old and new information out there just mentioning some areas to start. Dr Esselstyn is someone with a solid background - are you saying he is making up his research and medical results?

 

Plant-based proteins are fine you don't need to eat all your amino acids at one time - lots of solid research for this.

 

A vegan whole plant based diet (not a vegan junk food diet) is often deficient in Vitamin B-12 true and occasionally a few other things so simply supplementing is a good idea.

 

I am not commenting on your personal diet etc only general ideas for those who are not aware of the truth...

 

Perhaps the most recent and best research for fat causing diabetes is by Dr Roy Newcastle in the UK:

https://www.ncl.ac.uk/research/impact/casestudies/diabetes/

 

"Type 2 diabetes has long been regarded as a chronic disease and one with a complex, obscure cause. However, research by Newcastle University’s Professor Roy Taylor using innovative magnetic resonance methods has confirmed his Twin Cycle Hypothesis – that Type 2 diabetes is simply caused by excess fat within the liver and pancreas. In the liver, this fat causes a poor response to insulin and it produces too much glucose. In the pancreas, the fat inhibits insulin secretion. By clearly defining the cause of the disease, treatment can be planned to reverse the processes."

 

Note he is not a vegetarian and seems to be focusing on a low calorie diet to remove fat.

 

My point is for diabetes fat will harm and kill you.

 

More and more this is becoming clear. 

 

Your in denial like many vegans, they are not called essential amino acids for nothing and instead of eating meat you have to look around and combine proteins from plants to get all that what you can get in one time from meat. That is why many vegans are deficient in something as meat gives us all in a single bite while as  a vegan you have to think and combine.


You find one guy with an other opinion while countless call carbs the problem and this has been proven. You truly are a religious zealot no different from the low carb group. 

 

Your point is wrong for diabetes carbs will kill you if you don't believe me eat 200 grams of rice each day in a sitting and see how good your plant based diet will help you. I just can't stand here with your misinformation about the relation between carbs and diabetes anymore just because you want to promote a vegan diet. (because face it if you cut out meat you have to go higher in carbs if your vegan). So there is no other option so you HAVE to say this otherwise your whole belief system will break down.

 

The relation between carbs and diabetic has been proven in clinical trials. That more fat (and that is body fat not fat from your food you like to equate those things again wrong info) is bad for insulin has been known for a long time. But there is a big difference between dietary fat and bodyfat. Bodyfat can be removed with meat, with low carb, with high carb no need for your plant based diet at all.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Just a summary thought:

 

High carbs without getting rid of excess fat is a problem, of course, all junk food is a problem.

 

Getting rid of excess fat will remove most of the root problem. If you still eat junk food then you will still have a problem.

 

If you eat a low carb diet you can have diabetes go into remission (and lose eight etc) but you will still have long term problems.

 

I wish you and your family all the best - one day you will understand please have research the UK information it is interesting and not about being a vegetarian but connected to the fat discussion- there is zero need for meat in our diet - this is a fact.

Edited by TravelerEastWest

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10 minutes ago, TravelerEastWest said:

Just a summary thought:

 

High carbs without getting rid of excess fat is a problem, of course, all junk food is a problem.

 

Getting rid of excess fat will remove most of the root problem. If you still eat junk food then you will still have a problem.

 

If you eat a low carb diet you can have diabetes go into remission (and lose eight etc) but you will still have long term problems.

 

I wish you and your family all the best - one day you will understand please have research the UK information it is interesting and not about being a vegetarian but connected to the fat discussion- there is zero need for meat in our diet - this is a fact.

You still don't get it and it makes me tired.

 

Bodyfat indeed does have influence to how insulin responds but carbs do too. So BOTH are bad when your diabetic. Both need to be controlled. You just totally ignore one point because it does not suit your agenda. 

 

if you eat low carb it will be better then high carb when your a diabetic if you lost all your fat you won't have long term problems (have been proven already in newer research then yours). You keep pushing your high carb garbage because its the only way for you to stay vegan. That is the whole point of why you don't want to change your opinion.

 

There is zero need for meat in our diet, true but its 10x easier to get all your essential nutrients from meat then from a vegan diet. So while your technically right vegans will have to think watch and check while meat eaters just take a bite of meat and are done already. So both can have the same result with one being easy and the other hard and dangerous if you get deficient. 

 

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I got back from U.K mid March. After 3 weeks in the mother land (pasties and real beer), I was feeling a little bloated.. 81kg, which is 3 or 4kg above my normal weight.

Decided to get rid of it before returning to work the next month (20th April). So I stopped eating rice completely, made an effort to eat a lot more veggies and stuck to 2 meals a day and some fruit and nuts in the evening. After a few days I wasn't feeling hungry anymore and quite enjoying the challenge. I do walk most days, about 5km minimum and will be back into light jogging once I get my foot pain sorted next week.

 

I dropped 1kg a week since starting. Now weighed in this morning at 74.5kg... Sure weight does fluctuate but that's a pretty good indicator for me, as I try to weigh 1st thing in the morning at the same time. Now to improve my cardio a lot, found a great route up and down Mt Faber in singapore where I work. Feeling the buzz 🙂

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1 hour ago, TravelerEastWest said:

Plenty of proof to study that meat and dairy is bad for you both new and old but more importantly, the trend is away from meat.

 

lots of old and new information out there just mentioning some areas to start. Dr Esselstyn is someone with a solid background - are you saying he is making up his research and medical results?

 

Plant-based proteins are fine you don't need to eat all your amino acids at one time - lots of solid research for this.

 

A vegan whole plant based diet (not a vegan junk food diet) is often deficient in Vitamin B-12 true and occasionally a few other things so simply supplementing is a good idea.

 

I am not commenting on your personal diet etc only general ideas for those who are not aware of the truth...

 

Perhaps the most recent and best research for fat causing diabetes is by Dr Roy Newcastle in the UK:

https://www.ncl.ac.uk/research/impact/casestudies/diabetes/

 

"Type 2 diabetes has long been regarded as a chronic disease and one with a complex, obscure cause. However, research by Newcastle University’s Professor Roy Taylor using innovative magnetic resonance methods has confirmed his Twin Cycle Hypothesis – that Type 2 diabetes is simply caused by excess fat within the liver and pancreas. In the liver, this fat causes a poor response to insulin and it produces too much glucose. In the pancreas, the fat inhibits insulin secretion. By clearly defining the cause of the disease, treatment can be planned to reverse the processes."

 

Note he is not a vegetarian and seems to be focusing on a low calorie diet to remove fat.

 

My point is for diabetes fat will harm and kill you.

 

More and more this is becoming clear. 

 

You are becoming annoying. As someone else has mentioned, you are confusing fat in the diet with fat in the body; they are not the same; and fat in the body does not arise from eating fat.

Fatty liver disease is indeed linked with diabetes, although the assumption is that fatty liver is caused by insulin resistance/diabetes, and not that the fatty liver comes first and then causes diabetes; although no doubt restricting liver function doesn't help the problem. Either way, someone with non-alcoholic fatty liver will probably be insulin resistance (unless there is another cause such as Hep C).

Suggest you learn a little about human physiology.

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3 hours ago, FracturedRabbit said:

You are becoming annoying. As someone else has mentioned, you are confusing fat in the diet with fat in the body; they are not the same; and fat in the body does not arise from eating fat.

Fatty liver disease is indeed linked with diabetes, although the assumption is that fatty liver is caused by insulin resistance/diabetes, and not that the fatty liver comes first and then causes diabetes; although no doubt restricting liver function doesn't help the problem. Either way, someone with non-alcoholic fatty liver will probably be insulin resistance (unless there is another cause such as Hep C).

Suggest you learn a little about human physiology.

Sometimes the whole truth is annoying it is not a bad thing - I suggest that you consider spending some more time doing research on the other schools of thought 

 

I agree with you that studying physiology is a good thing - but sadly I am not good enough with statistics to understand the actual research and you need to know quite a bit of graduate level statistics (and other areas) to understand the research.

 

So instead, I use actual experience and I read those whom I trust based on their research, education and who is paying them to do their research. Note they don't agree with each other 100%.

 

I do step by step over time study about the body and health - after having done a core body of research fulltime for many months because I have been very sick with diabetes for many years - so this is not a joke for me and I have one purpose in posting, and one purpose only; to try and help others even it is only one person - that is OK.

 

I am currently 50% better using a whole plant-based diet. but I am not finished yet and hope to get to 80% plus better - difficult to get 100% when you lose beta cells over time.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

I don't want to start a fire-storm but there are really only two types of diet out there if you really think about it.  There are Ketogenic Diets that induce a metabolic state of nutritional ketosis, and then there are Non-Ketogenic Diets that maintain a glucose dominant metabolism and make you burn carbohydrates as a primary fuel source.

 

A ketogenic diet is unique and completely distinct because your metabolic profile will be different from someone relying mostly on glucose to fuel the body.

 

Even when you compare seemingly contradicting diets like Paleo, vegan, or the Mediterranean diet, you’ll still be using mostly glucose for fuel and you’re not that keto-adapted. 

 

Most people think that the point of a ketogenic diet is to always be in ketosis and that is not true at all.  The purpose of a ketogenic diet is not even to loose fat.  The real purpose of such a diet is to become keto-adapted.

 

There's a big difference between being in ketosis and being keto adapted.  Ketosis simply means that ketone bodies are being produced when carbohydrates are too low to meet the energy needs of the body. 

 

Becoming keto-adapted means training the body to use ketone bodies efficiently when they are produced, and also be able to quickly and efficiently switch from using carbs as a fuel source and using ketones when that is best for the circumstances.

 

The way hybrid car engines works is a good analogy.  Such engines are efficient at using BOTH gasoline or electricity depending on which fuel will provide the best efficiency for a particular circumstance.  Being keto-adapted allows your body to do the same thing.

 

Edited by WaveHunter

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22 hours ago, FracturedRabbit said:

You are becoming annoying. As someone else has mentioned, you are confusing fat in the diet with fat in the body; they are not the same; and fat in the body does not arise from eating fat.

Fatty liver disease is indeed linked with diabetes, although the assumption is that fatty liver is caused by insulin resistance/diabetes, and not that the fatty liver comes first and then causes diabetes; although no doubt restricting liver function doesn't help the problem. Either way, someone with non-alcoholic fatty liver will probably be insulin resistance (unless there is another cause such as Hep C).

Suggest you learn a little about human physiology.

Its been known for a while that fat people who lose weight (fat) get better response to insulin. So his story is not completely off. However he is countering the gain made by losing the fat and having a better insulin response by eating high carb again.

 

Both points are important just staying off carbs when your diabetic is not enough fat loss is important too.

 

But again this is for diabetic people I see no problems for people eating carbs (unprocessed ones) if they are healthy and have a healthy metabolic. 

 

Low carb is just one of the many tools to lose weight. For athlethes different rules apply then for obese people. The problem is diet guru's and diet fanatics fail to see the differences in situations and still push a one solution suits all. That is the biggest fail ever.

 

The best diet is the diet you stick with and that may be low carb or high carb or medium carb or whatever. As long as it produces results who cares. Those too rigid in their views are the ones driving others crazy.

 

You can find research for almost everything and then research that counters that research and then you have to learn if the research was sound or not. Often they speculate on things like carb consumption went up obesity too. Nice that is correlation but does not prove causation. They did research like that but forgot to factor in for instance that the amount of calories had increased too. That totally invalidates the whole research. Its hard to find good research as it is real expensive.

 

Good research should be funded by governments not companies. But I am dreaming of course. 

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