Digital nomad - visa and work permit

[DrJack54]

17 minutes ago, scorecard said:

True, of course, but it seems that he doesn't know Thailand, so why give him some false impression that it's all OK? 

You are correct about he doesn't know anything about Thailand. If that was not the case he would not need to ask how to "visit" los for 6 months. Heck he could almost pull it off visa exempt. One on arrival 2 border (max per yr) extend each. Or as I suggested setv to start with. Also he clearly knows little about people working online with nothing to do with Thai. He isn't a blogger etc etc. As for giving false impressions that its all OK....I'm not, because nothing will happen, so it is all ok. He should know that from online research already. Doesn't seem a strong suit.

[LivinLOS]

Legally you need a B visa and work permit.. As a self employed freelancer you wont get one.. 

You can however be employed by a BOI registered umbrella company www.iglu.net is a well known one.. This then gets you the red carpet treatment, pays taxes and is fully legal. 

[DrJack54]

4 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

Legally you need a B visa and work permit.. As a self employed freelancer you wont get one.. 

You can however be employed by a BOI registered umbrella company www.iglu.net is a well known one.. This then gets you the red carpet treatment, pays taxes and is fully legal. 

No wonder you get the red carpet because they charge heaps. Still option for him longer term but for first 6 months not needed. Heck he might hate the joint. Sounds like op very new to Thailand.

Edited February 5, 2019 by DrJack54
Error

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, DrJack54 said:

You are correct about he doesn't know anything about Thailand. If that was not the case he would not need to ask how to "visit" los for 6 months. Heck he could almost pull it off visa exempt. One on arrival 2 border (max per yr) extend each. Or as I suggested setv to start with. Also he clearly knows little about people working online with nothing to do with Thai. He isn't a blogger etc etc. As for giving false impressions that its all OK....I'm not, because nothing will happen, so it is all ok. He should know that from online research already. Doesn't seem a strong suit.

"s for giving false impressions that its all OK....I'm not, because nothing will happen, so it is all ok. He should know that from online research already. Doesn't seem a strong suit."

 

So you are giving him a rock solid guarantee nothing will happen?

[DrJack54]

17 minutes ago, scorecard said:

"s for giving false impressions that its all OK....I'm not, because nothing will happen, so it is all ok. He should know that from online research already. Doesn't seem a strong suit."

 

So you are giving him a rock solid guarantee nothing will happen?

Yep. Unless he is stupid enough to work in shared office space. Which I can't imagine he would need. But he hasn't contributed much since op

[elviajero]

3 hours ago, scorecard said:

"If the authorities discovered your online work it’s highly unlikely they’re stop you or prosecute."

 

Yes that's possible but it's also quite possible the various Thai authorities would prosecute and that could mean:

 

 - Fine

 - Immediate visa problems

 - Future visa problems. 

 

All the time someone has permission to stay for tourism it’s almost impossible for the authorities to prosecute. 

 

Otherwise they’d have to prosecute every tourist keeping up with work whilst on holiday.

 

That’s the main reason ‘online workers’ get away with it.

[alex8912]

3 hours ago, Chivas said:

Why do people red flag themselves its beyond me. Perhaps they believe absolutely no one from Thai immigration ever takes the slightest interest in whats posted here

I'd my bottom Dollar that they do exactly that to gauge reaction to Visa changes as and when

Oh god. I didn’t think people with your thinking existed here. LMAO 

[RocketDog]

Dance with elephants and you will get trampled. 

 

Work permit? As others have said, just don't go there. I pass a large hornet nest in a tree by the road everytime I go to the beach. I'm always tempted to throw rocks at it but then come to my senses and keep on going. 

 

As others have said, keep it to yourself. Especially don't tell the bargirls you have a steady source of income. ????

 

My advice: get a VPN. I recommend ExpressVPN. 

 

I personally know a friend of a friend of a friend who has been doing this for more than two years in Thailand with no issues whatsoever. ????

He even has the gall to deduct office supply expenses on his US taxes! Imagine that. 

[alex8912]

2 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

You are correct about he doesn't know anything about Thailand. If that was not the case he would not need to ask how to "visit" los for 6 months. Heck he could almost pull it off visa exempt. One on arrival 2 border (max per yr) extend each. Or as I suggested setv to start with. Also he clearly knows little about people working online with nothing to do with Thai. He isn't a blogger etc etc. As for giving false impressions that its all OK....I'm not, because nothing will happen, so it is all ok. He should know that from online research already. Doesn't seem a strong suit.

Why do so many of you suggest visa exempt or a SETV.  HE just needs a 6 month METV available easily in Italy for about 170 Euro and the first one you get can be used almost for 9 months if timed right. That gives him plenty of time to sort things out for his next step which may or may NOT include Thailand. This SETV advice is stupid!!  You have to take a trip out of the country and allow at least 2 days or more to get another SETV. Pay for it and waste stupid time at a Thai Embassy or consulate , pay for hotels etc etc etc. METV you can extend 60 days + 30 days ( like SETV) but just do a day trip border run and get another 60 days + 30 days ( if extended OR do the border run and ENJOY another country for a few days without spending part of two days at some hot Embassy waiting. Just get the METV. IT FITS THE OP LIKE A GLOVE. 

[impulse]

3 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

Legally you need a B visa and work permit.. As a self employed freelancer you wont get one.. 

You can however be employed by a BOI registered umbrella company www.iglu.net is a well known one.. This then gets you the red carpet treatment, pays taxes and is fully legal. 

 

While lots of schemes look perfectly legal because they operate in the light of day, many of them operate on loopholes that close up eventually.  Monthly visa run companies were "perfectly legal" until the day they weren't, leaving thousands in the lurch.   The same for some of the ED visa schools, which provided "perfectly legal" long stays right up until that loophole closed- again leaving thousands in the lurch.  Today, we have the closure of the embassy income affidavit scheme which, in combo with the changing money aging requirements, is leaving thousands in limbo.

 

I don't claim to know how your linked company operates, or whether they're good for perpetuity.  In fact, I suggested looking for such a company in an earlier post.  But in full disclosure, especially to any newcomers reading in, they should know that things operate in Thailand on a strange mix of "legal", "legal for today", "technically illegal but tolerated" and "just plain dodgy", even if they appear to be above board.  Add in the tendency of different immigration offices interpreting and enforcing the rules quite differently and it's best to do some on the ground research in the area where you want to live, before deciding on a course of action.

 

Caveat emptor.  There's a rich history over just the past 4 years of schemes that no longer work.  

 

   

Edited February 5, 2019 by impulse

[balo]

11 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

Yep. Unless he is stupid enough to work in shared office space

Nonsense, there are hundreds of co-working spaces established in Bangkok and Chiang Mai for many years , 50% of the people there are foreigners just visiting for a few weeks, months or longer. No arrests have been made , it's all in the open . 

 

All they do is to rent an internet line cheap , and borrow a chair and a table inside a room that looks like a cafe , but better than a coffee shop. 

 

 

 

Edited February 5, 2019 by balo

[LivinLOS]

16 hours ago, impulse said:

 

While lots of schemes look perfectly legal because they operate in the light of day, many of them operate on loopholes that close up eventually.  Monthly visa run companies were "perfectly legal" until the day they weren't, leaving thousands in the lurch.   The same for some of the ED visa schools, which provided "perfectly legal" long stays right up until that loophole closed- again leaving thousands in the lurch.  Today, we have the closure of the embassy income affidavit scheme which, in combo with the changing money aging requirements, is leaving thousands in limbo.

 

I don't claim to know how your linked company operates, or whether they're good for perpetuity.  In fact, I suggested looking for such a company in an earlier post.  But in full disclosure, especially to any newcomers reading in, they should know that things operate in Thailand on a strange mix of "legal", "legal for today", "technically illegal but tolerated" and "just plain dodgy", even if they appear to be above board.  Add in the tendency of different immigration offices interpreting and enforcing the rules quite differently and it's best to do some on the ground research in the area where you want to live, before deciding on a course of action.

 

Caveat emptor.  There's a rich history over just the past 4 years of schemes that no longer work.  

 

   

 

These companies are set up and passed by the BOI for exactly that purpose.. 

They are not gaming the system, they are part of the BOI push for more tech driven industry. 

[LivinLOS]

20 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

No wonder you get the red carpet because they charge heaps. Still option for him longer term but for first 6 months not needed. Heck he might hate the joint. Sounds like op very new to Thailand.

The charge 'heaps'.. Only in comparison to illegally avoiding taxes.. 

Compare it to incorporating, opening an office, employing Thais, having corporate tax and VAT accounts, etc etc.. Then its cheap.. 

The fee they charge, includes taxes, social security, healthcare contributions, the lawyers who process everything and book keepers who do accounts.. If I was to tally up those costs for my non Thai company(s) it would come to percentages probably higher. Thats without the included office space, assistance, etc etc etc... For a few 100 euros a month ?!?! 

 

I pay 100 euros a month for a simple mail scanning service in multiple cities in europe.. just to forward my mail.. 

[ExpatDraco]

I wonder if you could go for PR after 3 years of Iglu?

[JackThompson]

19 hours ago, impulse said:

While lots of schemes look perfectly legal because they operate in the light of day, many of them operate on loopholes that close up eventually.  Monthly visa run companies were "perfectly legal" until the day they weren't, leaving thousands in the lurch.   

Yes, immigration made hardly any "extra fee" money on those at all (a bit per-van to local IOs, probably) - they were clearly not happy with supporting that legal activity without kickbacks.

 

19 hours ago, impulse said:

  ... The same for some of the ED visa schools, which provided "perfectly legal" long stays right up until that loophole closed- again leaving thousands in the lurch. 

All that happened with the ED was that immigration gets an "extra fee" every 3 mo for each 90-day extension.  Thus, immigration gets more corruption-money now - exactly as they designed that change to work - hidden behind a "crackdown" mirage.

 

19 hours ago, impulse said:

But in full disclosure, especially to any newcomers reading in, they should know that things operate in Thailand on a strange mix of "legal", "legal for today", "technically illegal but tolerated" and "just plain dodgy", even if they appear to be above board. 

Agree on that.  But best to expect any change made being designed to push more people into paying "extra fees" for something for which immigration received less or zero corruption-money, in the past.  They system only becomes more-corrupt - never less - because "enhanced lifestyles" / greed operates on dopamine like a tolerance-building drug.

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, ExpatDraco said:

I wonder if you could go for PR after 3 years of Iglu?

This would be the only reason I can think of to do it - given even the elite is less-expensive.

 

2 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

The charge 'heaps'.. Only in comparison to illegally avoiding taxes.. 

Immigration could offer a visa directly, in exchange for folks bringing their money in the same year earned, and therefore owing taxes.

 

2 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

Compare it to incorporating, opening an office, employing Thais, having corporate tax and VAT accounts, etc etc.. Then its cheap.. 

This is also a bad idea, unless that business will be making good profits.

 

2 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

The fee they charge, includes taxes, social security, healthcare contributions, the lawyers who process everything and book keepers who do accounts.. If I was to tally up those costs for my non Thai company(s) it would come to percentages probably higher. Thats without the included office space, assistance, etc etc etc... For a few 100 euros a month ?!?! 

Comparing to a single-proprietorship - or a larger business with employees?  Health-care chip in is ~700 Baht/mo max contribution?  Taxes are a fraction of the total fee (if you bring in the money the same year earned).  And who needs the bookeper, lawyer, or invoicer to do some coding-work for a business on the other side of the planet, paid into one's passport-country bank-account? 

 

2 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

I pay 100 euros a month for a simple mail scanning service in multiple cities in europe.. just to forward my mail.. 

I could go rent a jet-ski tomorrow, and possibly pay that or more in "damages" to the machine.  But...  Anyway, such services are ~300 Baht/mo, in my passport-country - unless one has a large business and processing a lot of mail.

 

Bottom line, even the elite is a "less bad" deal than Iglu - and the elite is a raw-deal, imo.  Not saying it's iglu's fault, as I am sure the corruption payments to immigration and other involved entities are huge.  Given how much a certain clique detest foreigners staying here longer-term, it seems to take increasingly fat envelopes for them to feel satisfied with the arrangement (maybe why Iglu's fees recently went up, and the retirement arrangement is also being changed).

[impulse]

8 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

 

 

Quote

These companies are set up and passed by the BOI for exactly that purpose.. 

They are not gaming the system, they are part of the BOI push for more tech driven industry. 

 

My forecast is that problems will arise just like they did with ED visas.  A legitimate system, set up for exactly that purpose will be abused, fall out of favor, and then be cracked down on.  When the ED visa schools allowed students to abuse the system, the crackdown didn't just affect the abusers.  It bit lots of legitimate students in the butt.

 

There's a huge difference between "tech driven industry" and what a lot of digital nomads are doing.  Blogging, selling crap on EBay, and publishing fake news for fun and profit are hardly the kind of tech driven industry the government is trying to support.

 

Edit:  And I may be wrong, but I don't think the BOI actually sets up any companies.  They oversee a framework that encourages people (including legal entities like corporations) to form companies that meet objectives and conditions set by the government.  The BOI makes sure they dot the I's and cross the T's.  But the dosh is made by the entity that sets up the BOI company.  Just like the Department of Education didn't set up the dodgy ED visa schools.

 

Correct me if that's wrong, but our BOI company was definitely not set up by the BOI itself.

 

 

Edited February 6, 2019 by impulse

[LivinLOS]

23 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

 

My forecast is that problems will arise just like they did with ED visas.  A legitimate system, set up for exactly that purpose will be abused, fall out of favor, and then be cracked down on.  When the ED visa schools allowed students to abuse the system, the crackdown didn't just affect the abusers.  It bit lots of legitimate students in the butt.

 

There's a huge difference between "tech driven industry" and what a lot of digital nomads are doing.  Blogging, selling crap on EBay, and publishing fake news for fun and profit are hardly the kind of tech driven industry the government is trying to support.

 

Edit:  And I may be wrong, but I don't think the BOI actually sets up any companies.  They oversee a framework that encourages people (including legal entities like corporations) to form companies that meet objectives and conditions set by the government.  The BOI makes sure they dot the I's and cross the T's.  But the dosh is made by the entity that sets up the BOI company.  Just like the Department of Education didn't set up the dodgy ED visa schools.

 

Correct me if that's wrong, but our BOI company was definitely not set up by the BOI itself.

 

 

I understand your skepticism.. But these have been set up purely as outsourcing companies.. With BOI approval.. Theres no gaming the system like your ED comparison.. 

I find the constant 'its too expensive' laughable.. Usually comes straight after the 'if only there was a legal route I wouldnt mind paying taxes' until shown exactly that.. 

 

[LivinLOS]

Ohh and one for the 'its not illegal' and 'no ones been arrested' tribe 

 

https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/aussie-teacher-details-horrific-conditions-inside-thai-detention/news-story/d432a704bf0db1def6d79489ae1b830c?fbclid=IwAR3rDUqWff07cC1I3gUS4qsLnHQCdGahXmiNYTGN-QycVGvCFMdsE3lxyUo

 

Quote

 

The Australian teacher had been living in Thailand for three years, two of those on a tourist visa.

He said in the last year he was teaching English to Chinese students online through an Australian company, and said he was told this was fine because no money was exchanged through Thailand.

 

 

Edited February 6, 2019 by LivinLOS

[impulse]

15 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

I understand your skepticism.. But these have been set up purely as outsourcing companies.. With BOI approval.. Theres no gaming the system like your ED comparison..

I find the constant 'its too expensive' laughable.. Usually comes straight after the 'if only there was a legal route I wouldnt mind paying taxes' until shown exactly that..

 

Good information, and I hope it stays that way.

 

But I'm still forecasting a long term train wreck as a zillion other companies see the innovators making money, hop on the BOI bandwagon (like they do for every other money making endeavor in Thailand) and abuse the hell out of the system for the almighty baht.  ED visa schools are the perfect example...

 

Edited February 6, 2019 by impulse

[LivinLOS]

5 hours ago, JackThompson said:

This would be the only reason I can think of to do it - given even the elite is less-expensive.

 

Immigration could offer a visa directly, in exchange for folks bringing their money in the same year earned, and therefore owing taxes.

 

This is also a bad idea, unless that business will be making good profits.

 

Comparing to a single-proprietorship - or a larger business with employees?  Health-care chip in is ~700 Baht/mo max contribution?  Taxes are a fraction of the total fee (if you bring in the money the same year earned).  And who needs the bookeper, lawyer, or invoicer to do some coding-work for a business on the other side of the planet, paid into one's passport-country bank-account? 

 

I could go rent a jet-ski tomorrow, and possibly pay that or more in "damages" to the machine.  But...  Anyway, such services are ~300 Baht/mo, in my passport-country - unless one has a large business and processing a lot of mail.

 

Bottom line, even the elite is a "less bad" deal than Iglu - and the elite is a raw-deal, imo.  Not saying it's iglu's fault, as I am sure the corruption payments to immigration and other involved entities are huge.  Given how much a certain clique detest foreigners staying here longer-term, it seems to take increasingly fat envelopes for them to feel satisfied with the arrangement (maybe why Iglu's fees recently went up, and the retirement arrangement is also being changed).

Name another deal, which is legal.. 

Saying paying taxes is a bad deal, therefore I dont want to... isnt a solution.. 

 

This is the issue.. When compared to breaking the law, yes being a taxpayer is a bad deal.. But until you have a better deal which is also legal.. You dont present a legit alternative.. Only hope that it doesnt go wrong, while at the same time not contributing to the country in which you appear to wish to live.. I guess poor brown kids dont need to go to good schools hey ?? 

[OffshoreMig]

Apply a business visa.

Edited February 7, 2019 by OffshoreMig

[overherebc]

1 hour ago, OffshoreMig said:

Apply a business visa.

Before or after setting up the company?

[Caldera]

15 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

I guess poor brown kids dont need to go to good schools hey ?? 

With all due respect, this part is nonsense. Even if Thailand's tax income miraculously doubled overnight, I doubt that even a single baht would go towards better schools for regular (poor) people.

[LivinLOS]

28 minutes ago, Caldera said:

With all due respect, this part is nonsense. Even if Thailand's tax income miraculously doubled overnight, I doubt that even a single baht would go towards better schools for regular (poor) people.

Schools are paid for from Thailands budget.. Thailands budgets are paid for with taxes.. 

If you choose this as your home, and choose to work here, do you not see any need to contribute to the tax system as the law demands ??

[JackThompson]

16 hours ago, impulse said:

My forecast is that problems will arise just like they did with ED visas.  A legitimate system, set up for exactly that purpose will be abused, fall out of favor, and then be cracked down on.  When the ED visa schools allowed students to abuse the system, the crackdown didn't just affect the abusers.  It bit lots of legitimate students in the butt.

You are 100% correct it affected the legitimate - because they didn't have to pay the corruption money before.  This is what "the problem" was, from immigration's perspective.   People just didn't "get" the Orwellian symbolism in the motto, which is, "Good guys put extra money in my pocket."   This has led to much confusion - including myself, when I hadn't experienced the corruption first hand, yet.

 

My forecast is that whenever an agent income-stream levels out, the agent-money-junkies' tolerance will continue to rise, so they will need to to change the rules, to increase the agent-money dosage.  This should be assumed to be the case for every time of stay, unless/until the agent-money-junkies are removed root-and-branch.  Every time there is a rule-change, and the agents continue to exist, we know for certain this has not happened.

 

33 minutes ago, Caldera said:

... Even if Thailand's tax income miraculously doubled overnight, I doubt that even a single baht would go towards better schools for regular (poor) people.

Much better to make it easy for the expats to fund their parent's careers, and married-expats to directly support families and spend money into their villages. 

 

For the former, and to raise income-tax revenues, allow anyone with the required minimum-income, from a non-Thai job (remote worker), to pay income-taxes on that income (they already pay VAT) and get a Non-B permit of stay. 

But, many of those in the former category will become members of the latter, which could be why some in officialdom don't allow this clearly economic-positive option for permitted-stays. 

Edited February 7, 2019 by JackThompson

[FritsSikkink]

On ‎2‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 9:37 AM, JackThompson said:

Even those "caught red handed" working online have not been prosecuted.  But, unlike those people, I would not recommend working in a public co-working space and bragging about it on FB.

And sometimes it goes horribly wrong: 

 

He said in the last year he was teaching English to Chinese students online through an Australian company, and said he was told this was fine because no money was exchanged through Thailand.

But after his neighbour complained, John said he got a knock at the door.

https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/aussie-teacher-details-horrific-conditions-inside-thai-detention/news-story/d432a704bf0db1def6d79489ae1b830c

[Caldera]

3 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

Schools are paid for from Thailands budget.. Thailands budgets are paid for with taxes.. 

If you choose this as your home, and choose to work here, do you not see any need to contribute to the tax system as the law demands ??

Education sadly doesn't rank highly in Thailand's budget and I'd rather not pay for the next aircraft carrier that doesn't even have any aircraft, useless submarines, more armored vehicles for the army to suppress dissent, the next round of populist handouts... you get the picture.

 

That said, I'm not a digital nomad, I have never worked in any shape and form while staying in Thailand and I'm not required to pay tax in Thailand on income from abroad not brought in within the same year. That's a loophole alright, but as things stand, Thailand will have to make do with collecting VAT and the likes from me.

[Balooo]

Someone knows if is there any other company like iglu in Thailand?

[balo]

5 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

And sometimes it goes horribly wrong: 

 

He said in the last year he was teaching English to Chinese students online through an Australian company, and said he was told this was fine because no money was exchanged through Thailand.

But after his neighbour complained, John said he got a knock at the door.

https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/aussie-teacher-details-horrific-conditions-inside-thai-detention/news-story/d432a704bf0db1def6d79489ae1b830c

We only have his side of the story , I bet he did something more to cause attention from the neigbors. This has not been reported in the local media here, he is hiding his identirty, I call this a BS story until it can be verified. 

 

My guess is he invited students to his home and offered private lessons, which alerted the neigbors.

 

Edited February 7, 2019 by balo