800,000 Retirement Extension in Chiang Rai Feb 6, 2019

[ubonjoe]

11 minutes ago, wwest5829 said:

I was good until I read that you had to provide a letter from the “pension provider”. As an American with no “pension provider”, I am thrown for a loss. Yes, I have Social Security but that covers only 1/2 of the required 65k per month. I match that amount with my own funds drawn from 4 additional sources (none of which are set amounts but dependent on my financial decisions). Thoughts?

That was Chiang Mai immigration and I suspect the requirement was put in place for those with income proof from an embassy as a back up for what was on the document. It should not be required when showing bank books or statements to prove the money is being brought into the country.

[jacko45k]

5 minutes ago, steve73 said:

The most severe interpretation of these latest rules COULD be that anyone applying for their extension after 1st March 2019 has to have had the 800/400k minimums since their previous extension.

Obviously this would be completely unreasonable, but from some of the stories I've heard, some IO's could maybe think to interpret it this way... 

It could be regarded more severe if, during your time in Thailand, you drew down your money below 400k and were then in violation of the terms of your extension, and it would be regarded as invalid, and you are then on overstay!

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

That was Chiang Mai immigration and I suspect the requirement was put in place for those with income proof from an embassy as a back up for what was on the document. It should not be required when showing bank books or statements to prove the money is being brought into the country.

Yes. But it MIGHT be. Shouldn't people especially in this chaotic changing confusing environment do what they can to proactively protect themselves? 

[HHTel]

We always knew that the authorities here will usually make something simple, quite complex.

However, TV  posters have excelled themselves in putting up so many roadblocks to what is a simple procedure.

 

Applications for renewal have always been based on activity in the previous 12 months.  Never looking forward into the future which is unverifiable in advance.  There's no reason why this would change.  When applying for your extension in 2020, you will be checked:

 

1. For 'cash in the bank', that 800/400K was in your bank for the requisite 3 months after the last extension.  It has been seasoned for 2 months before the current application and has never fallen below 400K.

2.  A check of your bank account that 65K was transferred each month from a foreign source.

 

Failure of either option can lead to a refusal to renew.

 

It should be noted that the Immigration Office can grant an extension 'at their discretion', in which case I guess minor infringements will/may be accepted.

[The Theory]

On 2/6/2019 at 2:38 PM, jacko45k said:

Any mention of when you do the 90 day report you will need to prove you still have the 800,000 baht?

They won’t check anything 1st year, but they do ask for bank letter next year renewal of extension. 

You have not followed the rule, no more extension. 

But still it is a question if it is possible to go true the retirement process again or not after renewal is rejected due to not following the rule of fund in bank. 

Edited February 7, 2019 by The Theory

[Spidey]

On ‎2‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 8:22 AM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Although forms like IRS 1099s might show the same thing, if Immigration even understood what they are.

Your embassy would.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

3 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Your embassy would.

 

Kind of irrelevant in my case, since my Embassy is no longer in the income affidavits business, nor has anything to do with supporting my extension applications to Thai Immigration.

 

[jacko45k]

5 minutes ago, The Theory said:

They won’t check anything 1st year, but they do ask for bank letter next year renewal of extension. 

You have not follow the rule, no more extension. 

Bank letter does not prove anything of the sort.

A full year statements/ pass book I can believe. 

We are hearing many reports of people being told their 800k will be checked after the first 90 days at reporting time... what happens if a person has spent it is not mentioned. If the punishment only applies at next renewal, well there was no point checking it before then.

[Sheryl]

On 2/6/2019 at 3:22 PM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

That's going to be a bit difficult, if the applicant is getting their monthly funds from a variety of sources beyond things like Social Security as is still allowed -- bank interest earnings, stock dividends, retirement fund mandatory withdrawals, etc etc...  Lots of income sources don't provide an annual benefit letter.

 

In addition to all of the above, I also have a government agency pension... and I get monthly statements showing my benefit. But in many years of receiving it, my former government employer/pension plan has never sent me any kind of annual statement saying how much I am going to receive for the year ahead. Although forms like IRS 1099s might show the same thing, if Immigration even understood what they are.

 

Yes, it will be a huge headache. AFAIK this is not required per the Police Directive, seems to be something CM Imm has dreamed up on their own.

 

No way will TI know what a 1099 is nor accept it (and in any event it shows only what was paid out the year before, not what you are going to get). 

 

It might take some doing but you should be able to get a letter or statement of some sort from any pension or annuity provider stating that you a lifetime (pension/Annuity) that pays X amount. They will nto be unfamiliar with the request, even people still living in the US sometimes need this for purposes like getting a mortgage or car loan.

 

 But for those relying on dividends or the like to make up part of the total , I don't see what you can do as it is not a fixed amount nor guaranteed. I suppose get statements showing the prior year's payouts and bring in that, but it might not suffice and TI may be thrown by the variations in amounts and fact that payouts are quarterly rather than monthly.

 

i wonder of they are doing this because of difficulty otherwise determining monthly bank deposits come from abroad?? As we have learned from other threads that is far from easy to document from  many bank statements.

 

if anyone yet has had experience with income method extension in other locations,  please post. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

i wonder of they are doing this because of difficulty otherwise determining monthly bank deposits come from abroad?? As we have learned from other threads that is far from easy to document from  many bank statements.

 

Barring any broader evidence of this surfacing, I'm also of the opinion the prior comment about background documentation for the foreign sources of monthly income probably is just a CM Immigration thing.

 

Unless something else begins to surface elsewhere, I'm assuming that Immigration's focus will be on inspecting people's bank books to make sure they had the 12 monthly deposits as required, that they're listed somehow as foreign, and the presence of the supporting bank letter.

 

[Sheryl]

4 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Barring any broader evidence of this surfacing, I'm also of the opinion the prior comment about background documentation for the foreign sources of monthly income probably is just a CM Immigration thing.

 

Unless something else begins to surface elsewhere, I'm assuming that Immigration's focus will be on inspecting people's bank books to make sure they had the 12 monthly deposits as required, that they're listed somehow as foreign, and the presence of the supporting bank letter.

 

This is the big problem. It often is not so listed in the bank book or statement and even when it is, sometimes in the form of bank-specific codes the meaning of which is not self evident.

 

I agree, the extra documentation is a CM idea but as this all unfolds and IOs elsewhere are confronted with bank statements which in themselves do not establish overseas origin of the funds, it may become helpful  to provide such back-up.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

11 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

This is the big problem. It often is not so listed in the bank book or statement and even when it is, sometimes in the form of bank-specific codes the meaning of which is not self evident.

 

I agree, the extra documentation is a CM idea but as this all unfolds and IOs elsewhere are confronted with bank statements which in themselves do not establish overseas origin of the funds, it may become helpful  to provide such back-up.

 

That's been one of the things I've been wondering about as well.. In terms of the way foreign transactions are coded in bank passbooks, the different Thai banks seem to have different coding for those, some obvious, some not so obvious. 

 

How the thousands of IOs are going to deal with all that, I have no clear idea... Maybe they will learn the different bank codes, or maybe, they won't and it will be something else... possibly including a new bank form letter that specifically certifies the transactions as foreign... Dunno....  As usual, little clarity and a mountain of uncertainty.

 

 

[Gashead]

If an application is made before 1st March for a renewal date after 1st March do we have a clear sense whether the renewal would fall under the old or new rules?

[jacko45k]

1 minute ago, Gashead said:

If an application is made before 1st March for a renewal date after 1st March do we have a clear sense whether the renewal would fall under the old or new rules?

No, a friend renewed early, his expiry was not until Feb 28th, he got new rules.

[Suradit69]

6 hours ago, Time Traveller said:

Arguing over stupid Bankbook transaction codes! (and what should it matter where the money comes from anyway? Is money from overseas superior to thailand sourced money ? Why? )

What a joke thailand is. 

Because it's expected that you are supporting yourself with foreign sourced income if you're on a retirement extension and not employed in Thailand. Obviously people could just shift baht into their accounts monthly by borrowing at least some of it from a friend and then as soon as it's deposited pay it back which would defeat the requirement that you "prove" you have income of at least baht 65,000 a month.

 

The bank book codes have long been known to be essential when the source of deposits needed to be shown. Calling them stupid or questioning the intelligence of immigration officers because you don't understand something may not hit the target you were aiming at.

[DrJack54]

9 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

No, a friend renewed early, his expiry was not until Feb 28th, he got new rules.

So I renewed Nov 2018. I use the 800k. Last couple months had some big hits with medical for tgf. So I might even be under 400k as I type this. I'm not skiting but money isn't an issue. Am I suppose to make sure I lock in 400k in an account. Surely these changes must be post the magic mar 1. 

Do Thai just like doing this? Releasing new rules with zero guidance on how they will be enforced or at very least giving expats clear guidelines how to comply. A lot of people living here now perhaps were in responsible positions etc etc. I rarely critize Thai as I am a guest and appreciate that. However if I had a sub committee draft these new guidelines as proposal I would sack the lot of them. Kidergaden cops

[cmarshall]

3 hours ago, steve73 said:

The most severe interpretation of these latest rules COULD be that anyone applying for their extension after 1st March 2019 has to have had the 800/400k minimums since their previous extension.

Obviously this would be completely unreasonable, but from some of the stories I've heard, some IO's could maybe think to interpret it this way... 

Or since their previous extension or since March 1, whichever is later.  But we already have reports of IOs stating the new rules are currently in effect.

 

Therefore, as I said above, the only safe choice, for those who can afford it, is to keep the account topped up to 800k until such time as you have a year's worth of history showing monthly deposits of at least 65k.

[jacko45k]

2 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

So I renewed Nov 2018. I use the 800k. Last couple months had some big hits with medical for tgf. So I might even be under 400k as I type this. I'm not skiting but money isn't an issue. Am I suppose to make sure I lock in 400k in an account. Surely these changes must be post the magic mar 1. 

Do Thai just like doing this? Releasing new rules with zero guidance on how they will be enforced or at very least giving expats clear guidelines how to comply. A lot of people living here now perhaps were in responsible positions etc etc. I rarely critize Thai as I am a guest and appreciate that. However if I had a sub committee draft these new guidelines as proposal I would sack the lot of them. Kidergaden cops

I wish I knew, I renewed December and was drawing down but have stopped!

[DrJack54]

11 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

I wish I knew, I renewed December and was drawing down but have stopped!

Ha you made me check. I'm down to 450k. That 400k I have put into Thai coffers since November. As soon as I'm back bkk I will bring in a swag and term deposit 800+. Stuff em. Just a little heads up would be nice. As for the 3 month "after rule" still waiting how the "Thai brain centre" will regulate that. Could not possible be 90 day report.  Too many fly out before 90 day report. Checking bankbook at next annual extension? Ha. 

I was unaware Monty Python was doing a reunion

Edited February 7, 2019 by DrJack54
Error

[ocddave]

I think its safe to say that any rules/regulations/etc declared by any Thai official is viewed with complete ambiguity by all who are involved. I still think Big Joke has a wall with post-it notes on it of brilliant ideas, and he tosses darts when he wants to unleash one on the masses, no need for review.

[The Theory]

1 hour ago, jacko45k said:

Bank letter does not prove anything of the sort.

A full year statements/ pass book I can believe. 

We are hearing many reports of people being told their 800k will be checked after the first 90 days at reporting time... what happens if a person has spent it is not mentioned. If the punishment only applies at next renewal, well there was no point checking it before then.

The bank letter will change since it will be 2 mounts fund in advance + 3 months after + 400,000 the rest of the year till next renewal date. 

I don’t think they make their own work more complicated by checking bank accounts during the year, but at the end of the year we will see who will be rejected and who will be approved. 

[Sheryl]

42 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

So I renewed Nov 2018. I use the 800k. Last couple months had some big hits with medical for tgf. So I might even be under 400k as I type this. I'm not skiting but money isn't an issue. Am I suppose to make sure I lock in 400k in an account. Surely these changes must be post the magic mar 1. 

Do Thai just like doing this? Releasing new rules with zero guidance on how they will be enforced or at very least giving expats clear guidelines how to comply. A lot of people living here now perhaps were in responsible positions etc etc. I rarely critize Thai as I am a guest and appreciate that. However if I had a sub committee draft these new guidelines as proposal I would sack the lot of them. Kidergaden cops

I have the same concern and my balance now is below 300K. Sure I can top it up, and I plan to do so by 1 March,  but it will still have been below 400K for around 2 months  in the period since my prior  extension. Which of course was before the new rules were announced and well before they are supposed to go into effect.  All I can do is hope it's nto an issue with my particular IO.

[DrJack54]

8 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

I have the same concern and my balance now is below 300K. Sure I can top it up, and I plan to do so by 1 March,  but it will still have been below 400K for around 2 months  in the period since my prior  extension. Which of course was before the new rules were announced and well before they are supposed to go into effect.  All I can do is hope it's nto an issue with my particular IO.

I'm not p:::::::::in your pocket (au term) when I say this. If a very very experienced member such as yourself is not clear about how things will pan out, it makes me feel good. Reason is because it means I'm not completely stupid as to not be able to interpret these new regs.

Keep in mind for every one Thaivisa member who tries to keep "up to date" there are many many that are living in a bubble. Good on them I might add. The few blokes I know in udon, some married some not, most not rich have no idea about these changes. 

[ocddave]

2 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

The few blokes I know in udon, some married some not, most not rich have no idea about these changes. 

There are probably thousands of them, should make for an interesting year here in Thailand for expats, not everyone is online bantering back-n-forth about these changes like we are.

[Jingthing]

So I renewed Nov 2018. I use the 800k. Last couple months had some big hits with medical for tgf. So I might even be under 400k as I type this. I'm not skiting but money isn't an issue. Am I suppose to make sure I lock in 400k in an account. Surely these changes must be post the magic mar 1. 
Do Thai just like doing this? Releasing new rules with zero guidance on how they will be enforced or at very least giving expats clear guidelines how to comply. A lot of people living here now perhaps were in responsible positions etc etc. I rarely critize Thai as I am a guest and appreciate that. However if I had a sub committee draft these new guidelines as proposal I would sack the lot of them. Kidergaden cops

I'm in a similar position and it's quite annoying. Nobody can really give us any assurances about potential retroactivity on these onerous new rules. I got my last extension late last year and as usual went under 800k within three months. Impossible to reverse that. Impossible to know about future rules. Perhaps we're viewed by immigration as magical farangs that are also psychic.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[HHTel]

I'd put money on the check being at your next application.  Apart from 90 day reports (which is to confirm your address), when have they carried out any monitoring throughout the validity of an extension of stay.

 

Relax.

[DrJack54]

2 minutes ago, HHTel said:

I'd put money on the check being at your next application.  Apart from 90 day reports (which is to confirm your address), when have they carried out any monitoring throughout the validity of an extension of stay.

 

Relax.

I agree, re the check will be on next renewal, but as Jing and others question, when does the time frame start. As for 90 day reports, they have never been related to extension conditions etc, for one simple reason. They are only required if your in Los 90 days continuously. I've been here 7 years and never done one. I'm sure that's not the record.

[ocddave]

18 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Perhaps we're viewed by immigration as magical farangs that are also psychic.

I think the same thing when driving down the road, I assume Thai's communicate telepathically, no need for blinkers.

[Dumbastheycome]

In real terms the  advisory is  correct.....upon next extension.

[DrJack54]

14 minutes ago, Dumbastheycome said:

In real terms the  advisory is  correct.....upon next extension.

Can you translate that? I cannot join 2 words together that makes sense. Especially "the advisory is correct".....