Consequences of illegally using 800K for retirement extension after March 1, 2019

[connda]

Most everyone has heard about the new police order regarding the changes in the rules regarding using the 800k THB in the bank method for extensions to stay in Thailand based on retirement

1) Now the 800k THB can not be used 2 months prior to the extension application and then can not be used for 3 months after the extension; and
2) during the other 7 months of the year when the funds can be drawn out and used for living expenses, the balance of the account can not fall below 400k THB. 

 

So, there we have the constraints of the new law.  Now the question is: "What happens to a retiree who either uses the funds during the 5 month period that they can not legally be accessed, or who draws their account below the 400k THB threshold sometime during the year?"

I've read all the articles on ThaiVisa regarding the new retirement extension rules and most all of the commentaries on those threads, but I have yet to see anything official or unofficial as to what the penalties will be for non-compliance. 

I guess we will know for sure after March 1, 2020 when the first retirees show up at immigration with bank books showing they were not able to comply with the police order.  But that leaves any retiree who is unable to comply with 1) and 2) above in absolute limbo if the 800k THB in a Thai bank is their chosen or only option.  There really needs to be an official statement regarding how Immigration is going to handle these cases which I guarantee will show up on their doorsteps after March 1, 2020. 

Will they:
* Escort the retiree to the local Immigration Detention Center
* Issue a one to seven day extension for the retiree to book a plane ticket out of the country
* Advise the retiree to return to their home country to obtain a new O-A Retirement Visa

* Advise the retiree that they are no longer welcome to retire in Thailand

 

Having laws is all well and good, but people effected by those laws need to understand what the consequences will be if a retiree, for whatever reason, can not adhere to those new requirements, especially if they actually have 800k THB seasoned for 2 months in a Thai bank prior to their application for an extension based on retirement in 2020. 

Edited February 7, 2019 by connda

[Maestro]

If the required amount was not in the bank the for two months prior to the application, immigration will not grant the extension unless an exemption is made in accordance with the terms of the Police Order.

 

For all other cases you have described, there is currently no provision for any penalty or other sanction in the Immigration Act.

[Liverpudlian]

You think too mutt.

[Delight]

1 hour ago, Maestro said:

If the required amount was not in the bank the for two months prior to the application, immigration will not grant the extension unless an exemption is made in accordance with the terms of the Police Order.

 

For all other cases you have described, there is currently no provision for any penalty or other sanction in the Immigration Act.

Suspect that the following visa extension will not be granted. Dropping below the 400K will be evidenced on your prior  bank statement

[bkkcanuck8]

9 hours ago, Maestro said:

If the required amount was not in the bank the for two months prior to the application, immigration will not grant the extension unless an exemption is made in accordance with the terms of the Police Order.

 

For all other cases you have described, there is currently no provision for any penalty or other sanction in the Immigration Act.

IMHO and not knowing the ins and outs of Thai law on fraud... I would not assume that it is not covered under fraud (criminal; not an immigration/administration offense).  The standard process is to transfer in to an account (never under your control) have a statement printed off on official bank documentation, then the money removed after.  It can be considered a purposeful misrepresentation -- aka fraud.

[alanrchase]

With what has been happening before the new regulations I suppose people will just pay an agent to have the problem go away.

[Longcut]

What if you plan on leaving Thailand in a year after your next extension. How is one to draw down their 800K over the year? It is almost impossible to transfer funds out of Thailand unless you use a service like DeeMoney.com. Will there be a penalty if one gets caught living on the 800K? If I were leaving, I would not want to be bringing more money into the country when I already have 800K in the bank. At one point possibly midyear, I would be dipping below the 400K baht threshold. How is someone suppose to draw down their funds before leaving?

[mfd101]

2 minutes ago, Longcut said:

What if you plan on leaving Thailand in a year after your next extension. How is one to draw down their 800K over the year? It is almost impossible to transfer funds out of Thailand unless you use a service like DeeMoney.com. Will there be a penalty if one gets caught living on the 800K? If I were leaving, I would not want to be bringing more money into the country when I already have 800K in the bank. At one point possibly midyear, I would be dipping below the 400K baht threshold. How is someone suppose to draw down their funds before leaving?

The penalty for falling below whatever is the relevant bar is that your next extension is refused. If you don't WANT another extension because you're leaving the country permanently or longterm, then presumably you can draw down your funds in the bank to zero if you wish and leave the country before your next extension falls due. No sweat.

[Longcut]

7 minutes ago, mfd101 said:

The penalty for falling below whatever is the relevant bar is that your next extension is refused. If you don't WANT another extension because you're leaving the country permanently or longterm, then presumably you can draw down your funds in the bank to zero if you wish and leave the country before your next extension falls due. No sweat.

Sounds reasonable. Thanks.

[mlmcleod]

Why does anyone use the 800K baht for retirement anymore.  The new 65K for income method is way easier.  Just transfer 65K baht every month.  Then withdraw and send it back overseas and repeat.

[Chongalulu]

Look,they haven’t even thought of how to draft the regulations without ambiguity nor incorporate the post visa seasoning requirements with the initial new guidelines,so what makes you think it’s even occurred to them how to monitor or implement any penalties? They’re as usual simply making it up as they go along!

[FritsSikkink]

5 minutes ago, mlmcleod said:

Why does anyone use the 800K baht for retirement anymore.  The new 65K for income method is way easier.  Just transfer 65K baht every month.  Then withdraw and send it back overseas and repeat.

That isn't income, so you want to cheat the system again. Which will result in counter measures from immigration.

[Chongalulu]

3 minutes ago, mlmcleod said:

Why does anyone use the 800K baht for retirement anymore.  The new 65K for income method is way easier.  Just transfer 65K baht every month.  Then withdraw and send it back overseas and repeat.

That’s a very costly method with 24 lots of bank charges and exchange rate losses on each transaction. You should also see other threads regarding the issues on fx companies which are more competitive not showing up as as foreign transfers (a requirement) when arriving in your Thai bank.

[Chongalulu]

Just now, FritsSikkink said:

That isn't income, so you want to cheat the system again. Which will result in counter measures from immigration.

There is no ruling in police orders that precludes you from doing that,but see my other comment about what an expensive process it would be.

[Wake Up]

8 minutes ago, mlmcleod said:

Why does anyone use the 800K baht for retirement anymore.  The new 65K for income method is way easier.  Just transfer 65K baht every month.  Then withdraw and send it back overseas and repeat.

Because you lose a lot of money in exchange rates and fees doing this every month. It is not a good financial idea. Put the 800 k in a savings account, do the math, and you come out way ahead in profit. 

[phuketrichard]

35 minutes ago, mfd101 said:

The penalty for falling below whatever is the relevant bar is that your next extension is refused. If you don't WANT another extension because you're leaving the country permanently or longterm, then presumably you can draw down your funds in the bank to zero if you wish and leave the country before your next extension falls due. No sweat.

this is exactly my plan as plan on moving after my next 1 year extension.

I assume, (hope) there is not going to be put into effect that youu need visit immigration every month to check if your 400,000 is still there

[poohy]

15 minutes ago, mlmcleod said:

Why does anyone use the 800K baht for retirement anymore.  The new 65K for income method is way easier.  Just transfer 65K baht every month.  Then withdraw and send it back overseas and repeat.

Not illegal whatsoever but expensive!

[watso63]

28 minutes ago, mlmcleod said:

Why does anyone use the 800K baht for retirement anymore.  The new 65K for income method is way easier.  Just transfer 65K baht every month.  Then withdraw and send it back overseas and repeat.

Aaaaand live on fresh air only????????????

[Pedrogaz]

All speculation. Wait and see what happens. There is no point wasting time thinking about what might happen.

[watso63]

The next extension will more than likely be refused in which case you would be required to leave the country. Never leave renewal to the last minute.

[jimn]

20 hours ago, connda said:

1) Now the 800k THB can not be used 2 months prior to the extension application and then can not be used for 3 months after the extension; and
2) during the other 7 months of the year when the funds can be drawn out and used for living expenses, the balance of the account can not fall below 400k THB. 

Not quite right. It must stay at 400k for 5 months when it should be topped back up to 800k for the 2 months prior to the next extension. 

[marcusarelus]

45 minutes ago, mlmcleod said:

Why does anyone use the 800K baht for retirement anymore.  The new 65K for income method is way easier.  Just transfer 65K baht every month.  Then withdraw and send it back overseas and repeat.

I just spent 3 weeks trying to get a bill paid because a clerk at the bank entered a wrong number.  What happens if a bank messes up and you don't get the transfer?  SS might stop payment for a month because of paperwork problem?  Happened to me a few years ago.  If you miss a payment are you out?  When?  In jail? 

[GeorgeCross]

10 hours ago, Delight said:

Suspect that the following visa extension will not be granted. Dropping below the 400K will be evidenced on your prior  bank statement

 

suspect you'll be advised to 'go see copy shop..' ????

[JackThompson]

47 minutes ago, phuketrichard said:

this is exactly my plan as plan on moving after my next 1 year extension.

I assume, (hope) there is not going to be put into effect that youu need visit immigration every month to check if your 400,000 is still there

A couple posts have indicated they will re-set your 90-day reporting when you do the extension, then require an updated bank-book or letter at that time.  It is not clear what happens to those who don't remain in-country for 90-days - maybe have to prove the money when they do a TM-30 upon returning to their Thai-residence? 

 

It is also not clear if, like any other extension, it ends the day you no longer qualify to receive it.  In theory (we have no idea), one could be on "overstay" starting day after they violate the terms.  So, if you drop below the 800K / 400K (depending on what month after your last extension), you'd need to run to a border or immigration to apply for 7 days to leave the country - as those whose job or marriage ends must do currently.

 

Thus far, enforcement / our obligations have not been stipulated, even though we are less than a month from implementation. All we have to go by, which I have read, are one person's report (90-day reset and show money again then), plus one agent-report indicating they are already negotiating with their immigration-partners how they will split the loot for faking 90-day-money reports.

Edited February 8, 2019 by JackThompson

[GeorgeCross]

36 minutes ago, watso63 said:

Aaaaand live on fresh air only????????????

 

unless partner have business, fronted or otherwise

Edited February 8, 2019 by GeorgeCross

[Henryford]

1 hour ago, FritsSikkink said:

That isn't income, so you want to cheat the system again. Which will result in counter measures from immigration. 

Is it cheating? As far as i understand it the new rules only say you need a RECEIPT from abroad into your thai bank of 65k. There are no rules saying how much, if any, of that can be transferred out. If immigration need to confirm INCOME they need another system.

Edited February 8, 2019 by Henryford

[Geordie59]

Where this new rule falls down IMO is that reason you had to show the 800k in the bank was to prove you had enough money to support yourself for the year. This is equivalent to transferring in 65k/month for the same reason. 

Now it seems you can't access the money you are supposed to be using to live. 

Edited February 8, 2019 by Geordie59
Spelling

[Geordie59]

double post

Edited February 8, 2019 by Geordie59

[Henryford]

2 minutes ago, Geordie59 said:

Where this new rule falls down IMO is that reason you had to show the 800k in the bank was to prove you had enough money to support yourself for the year. This is equivalent to transferring in 65k/month for the same reason. 

Now it seems you can't access the money you are supposed to be useing to live. 

Exactly so those using the 800k method STILL have to transfer say 65k a month to live on. So why use the 800k method?

[Geordie59]

Double post

Edited February 8, 2019 by Geordie59