Consequences of illegally using 800K for retirement extension after March 1, 2019

[Pilotman]

'Head room' is the problem that I am considering now. The 800/400k is a minimum, so I imagine that the prudent thing to do, if you can, is to place a minimum of  circa 1 million into your account to provide the required head room. Then if a mistake in spending does happen, it does not impact your minimum limit.  I see others are placing 800k into a fixed interest account and then using another account for monthly in comings and outgoings, which achieves the same thing.  Thats the route I will take.  

[NoshowJones]

1 hour ago, FritsSikkink said:

That isn't income, so you want to cheat the system again. Which will result in counter measures from immigration.

and the system does not cheat us?

[FritsSikkink]

11 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

and the system does not cheat us?

Not that I know of but please explain.

[FritsSikkink]

42 minutes ago, Henryford said:

Is it cheating? As far as i understand it the new rules only say you need a RECEIPT from abroad into your thai bank of 65k. 

You understand wrong, you need to show income.

[johnmcc6]

You must prove where the money comes from. You cannot just recycle 65k

[NoshowJones]

3 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

Not that I know of but please explain.

OK, here we go again. What about the retirees who bought there houses, brought up families, even took Thai families out of poverty when all that was needed was a trip to the border every 90 days to stay in the country indefinitely.

The government then stopped all this and made it financially much harder for these same retirees to carry on living here.

Don't they have the right to feel cheated?

[homeseeker]

The topic heading mentions 1st March coming. Well seems that right now there are stringent measures in place at CW checking applicants and documents. In the last week I was there to get my extension and I use the 800k in the bank method. Most applications are very carefully checked by 2 or 3 separate senior immigration officers. The bank book is being scrutinized by a supervisor.

Photo of the applicant is taken and for the re-enty permit as well and the papers and passport are double checked by a separate senior officer.

There are signs up all around the offices "No Tips" and it seems to me few agents around the place.

 

 

[digger70]

2 hours ago, mlmcleod said:

Why does anyone use the 800K baht for retirement anymore.  The new 65K for income method is way easier.  Just transfer 65K baht every month.  Then withdraw and send it back overseas and repeat.

I don't think that's smart. It would cost you dearly to do that 24 times in one year.

[JackThompson]

25 minutes ago, homeseeker said:

The topic heading mentions 1st March coming. Well seems that right now there are stringent measures in place at CW checking applicants and documents. In the last week I was there to get my extension and I use the 800k in the bank method. Most applications are very carefully checked by 2 or 3 separate senior immigration officers. The bank book is being scrutinized by a supervisor.

Photo of the applicant is taken and for the re-enty permit as well and the papers and passport are double checked by a separate senior officer.

Yes - if you do an honest, in-person application, they check every box and scrutinize every document.  This is not new.

 

Quote

There are signs up all around the offices "No Tips" and it seems to me few agents around the place.

I don't recall seeing agents out in the open at CW, as one will see in smaller offices - but I only went there a couple times.  Do not be fooled, however - even when CW always did everything by the published rules for in-person applicants (to their credit), there was always an agent-option running in parallel. 

 

The unofficial "extra seasoning" on marriage-based extensions, and demand for landlord-docs some applicants may be unable to obtain, indicate that CW's "by the book for honest applicants" policy is coming to an end. 

 

Combined with the new seasoning rules - which make no sense at all to prevent the agent/io system, but could multiply agent/io profits - it appears that corruption is kicking into high-gear under new leadership.  It's not surprising the usual reeking cloud of fake-pr-spin about "corruption" and "fakers" is being directed by the magician's other hand, as the corrupt use the misdirection to increase their income-streams.

Edited February 8, 2019 by JackThompson

[srowndedbyh2o]

2 hours ago, jimn said:

Not quite right. It must stay at 400k for 5 months when it should be topped back up to 800k for the 2 months prior to the next extension. 

I think it is right;

Extension done >800,000 for 3 months >400,000 for 7 months > 800,000 for 2 months

3+7+2. That’s your one year.

[natway09]

In a nutshell then, if you really wish to retire in Thailand & make it your new home just put 

one million Baht in a savings account, getting interest every 3 months & forget about it

until next years extension comes along.

If you are not prepared to do that, maybe should go back

[JackThompson]

14 minutes ago, natway09 said:

In a nutshell then, if you really wish to retire in Thailand & make it your new home just put 

one million Baht in a savings account, getting interest every 3 months & forget about it

until next years extension comes along.

If you are not prepared to do that, maybe should go back

If you are not prepared to do that, maybe should go back retire / spend your money in a country that is happy for you to do so.  No one is "going back" with so many other, better options available. 

 

The primary loss from all the "tightenings" is to Thailand, and the primary beneficiaries are other countries - particularly in the region - who will have more capital influx to use to accelerate their development, relative to Thailand.

[FritsSikkink]

1 hour ago, possum1931 said:

OK, here we go again. What about the retirees who bought there houses, brought up families, even took Thai families out of poverty when all that was needed was a trip to the border every 90 days to stay in the country indefinitely.

The government then stopped all this and made it financially much harder for these same retirees to carry on living here.

Don't they have the right to feel cheated?

The world is changing constantly, this doesn't mean people are being cheated. If you have a house take out a loan to put the money in the bank and repay when not needed. Problem solved.

[steve73]

I've been running some fairly detailed calculations comparing the 800k savings with 65k per month transferred in.

 

Benefits of each option depend on how much you actually want to bring into T/L, how much you actually spend, and what interest rates you can get on your money both in T/L and elsewhere (UK).

 

Assumptions: 

• You either maintain 800k in a Thai Bank, or the equivalent in a GBP savings account.
• For 65k/mon you need to use SWIFT (cost 20GBP, TTrate 1.5%<MMR, 200 bt fee) - typical Thai bank TT rate (for GBP) is usually around 1% less than MMR, but I've often been paid at the lowest rate seen over a few days, so I'm assuming another 0.5% lower.  Any excess beyond what you need to actually spend is returned using Dee money (cost 150bt, FX rate 1%>MMR).
• For 800k savings (assuming you keep in in all year rather than running it down to 400k for a few months), I've used Transferwise (cost 1.50GBP +0.55%, FX of MMR+1% - since you can time your transfers to make use of periodic high rates).  No need to return any money.

 

Over one year if the Thai interest rate is the same as outside, then 800k in your Thai bank saves you a minimum of 670GBP (if you're spending 65k/mon), spending more or less than this saves you even more; ie. 800GBP if you only spend 40k/mon, or if you have some Thai income (eg. condo rental) and only need to bring in 20k/mon you'll save 900GBP.  If you're spending more than 65k/mon the savings still increase further (eg at 100k/mon you save 880GBP due to better rates with TW).

 

BUT, if you are getting around 4% more on your savings outside T/L compared to your Thai account then both methods are similar.  (3-5% depending whether you actually spend 65k or 20k per month.)

 

So in summary, unless you are earning a guaranteed 4% or so higher rate than in your Thai account, you will probably be better off keeping 800k in T/L.

 

Your own circumstances, and costs or other assumptions, will give different results.

 

[Sheryl]

3 hours ago, Henryford said:

Exactly so those using the 800k method STILL have to transfer say 65k a month to live on. So why use the 800k method?

Avoid the problems associated with proving that the monthly deposits came from abroad, at least until that gets clarified. We have not yet had time to see how different IOs will handle that but we do know that it is far from as simple as looking at a bank statement in many cases.  CM has been reported to be requiring letters from "pension provider".  If many offices do thsi it will get very complicated/difficult especially for those whose income comes from multiple streams, one or more of which is from  dividends and other investments.

 

Also avoid the risk of falling below the required 65K due to currency flunctuations/need to constantly monitor them to avoid that.

 

They don't have to transfer in 65K each month. They have to bring in  whatever they need to live on. For some people that is much less than 800k. Can be done in a single yearly transfer if they prefer, or in several transfers of  varying amounts depending in need. Or could simply withdraw by ATM from foreign account as needed, which is what some people currently do for the living costs.

 

Then there is the issue of not having been able to get a full 12 months in for extensions due this year true for many of us. While Imm was told to be "lenient" there is no definition of that, no way of knowing how many months will be accepted. That creates huge uncertain going in.

 

And for those whose incomes come in under 65K, even by a small amount, there is total lack of clarity as to how the combo method now works.

 

My main reason for planning to use 800K method on my next extension is simply that it is the only method for which the process and required documentation is really clear and I can be certain of getting my extension. The only area of unclarity around the 800K method is whether a particular office will allow the 800k to be in a fixed deposit as opposed to a savings account. Otherwise it is crystal clear and the documentation quite simple. The requirement is onerous, I agree, and it makes no sense,  but the process is simple and sure.

 

If as expected US SS IDD comes on line soon I will probably enroll in it. If I then have 12 consecutive monthly deposits of 65k by next extension time - or  monthly deposits under that threshold but the combo method has been fully clarified - then I may switch over. But for now I'm sticking with what is sure.

 

Of course, not everyone has that option.  (And nothing wrong with those who do not! If they have 65K a month they CAN afford to live here even if they don't have another 800K in savings, as long as they have health insurance.).

 

But for those of us who do, this is the safest/most conservative approach at present, until matters become clearer.

 

 

 

 

[Greenhill]

2 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

You understand wrong, you need to show income.

What is 'income'?   Isn't it, money coming in?    65k coming into Thailand every month does show 'income'!    If not, please explain further what 'income' means?

[NoshowJones]

1 hour ago, FritsSikkink said:

The world is changing constantly, this doesn't mean people are being cheated. If you have a house take out a loan to put the money in the bank and repay when not needed. Problem solved.

We will just agree to disagree on this. We are also being cheated by not being allowed to buy our house and land, but we knew that before we came to retire here.

There is no reason to not allow us to buy up to a certain size of house, or a very small amount of land. The Thai government is cheating us of the chance to do this.

 

I suppose the whole thing is your interpretation of the word cheat. I believe most, if not all the countries governments in the world cheat their people in some way.

[Jingthing]

16 hours ago, Maestro said:

If the required amount was not in the bank the for two months prior to the application, immigration will not grant the extension unless an exemption is made in accordance with the terms of the Police Order.

 

For all other cases you have described, there is currently no provision for any penalty or other sanction in the Immigration Act.

Yes, that sounds accurate for what we know now.

We don't even know how the after extension rules will be looked at. 

During the year or only at the next extension.

There is massive uncertainty and fear now. Justified fear.

There has been a massive RADICAL set of rule changes, done in a short time frame, people cut off from embassy letters are especially vulnerable. 

We NEED answers. This is serious stuff. 

[Jingthing]

16 hours ago, Liverpudlian said:

You think too mutt.

You'll be thinking too much too if you get dragged to prison based on new rules and consequences that have not even been explained. This is serious stuff. Lives and futures are on the line. No, I am not exaggerating. 

[Jingthing]

14 hours ago, Delight said:

Suspect that the following visa extension will not be granted. Dropping below the 400K will be evidenced on your prior  bank statement

Just a guess. There is actually evidence now of some offices saying they will be checking in three months. Not saying that will be the final policy. Just don't make up stories out of thin air to calm people without just cause. 

Also even if so, then what? You violated during the year. Were you illegal from the day of violation? Nobody knows. This is very serious stuff. 

[Jingthing]

6 hours ago, Longcut said:

What if you plan on leaving Thailand in a year after your next extension. How is one to draw down their 800K over the year? It is almost impossible to transfer funds out of Thailand unless you use a service like DeeMoney.com. Will there be a penalty if one gets caught living on the 800K? If I were leaving, I would not want to be bringing more money into the country when I already have 800K in the bank. At one point possibly midyear, I would be dipping below the 400K baht threshold. How is someone suppose to draw down their funds before leaving?

That is a very valid question! Many people will be leaving now. Will they feel (or will it even be true) that drawing down their own money makes them an illegal alien during the time (and it can be many months) that they are trying to leave Thailand. Again, this is very serious stuff.

[Jingthing]

6 hours ago, mfd101 said:

The penalty for falling below whatever is the relevant bar is that your next extension is refused. If you don't WANT another extension because you're leaving the country permanently or longterm, then presumably you can draw down your funds in the bank to zero if you wish and leave the country before your next extension falls due. No sweat.

You are making stuff up at of thin air. You're given false comfort based on no information. That is not cool. 

[Spidey]

On ‎2‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 6:26 AM, connda said:

) Now the 800k THB can not be used 2 months prior to the extension application and then can not be used for 3 months after the extension; and
2) during the other 7 months of the year when the funds can be drawn out and used for living expenses, the balance of the account can not fall below 400k THB. 

 

So, there we have the constraints of the new law.  Now the question is: "What happens to a retiree who either uses the funds during the 5 month period that they can not legally be accessed, or who draws their account below the 400k THB threshold sometime during the year?"

I've read all the articles on ThaiVisa regarding the new retirement extension rules and most all of the commentaries on those threads, but I have yet to see anything official or unofficial as to what the penalties will be for non-compliance. 

I guess we will know for sure after March 1, 2020 when the first retirees show up at immigration with bank books showing they were not able to comply with the police order.  But that leaves any retiree who is unable to comply with 1) and 2) above in absolute limbo if the 800k THB in a Thai bank is their chosen or only option.  There really needs to be an official statement regarding how Immigration is going to handle these cases which I guarantee will show up on their doorsteps after March 1, 2020. 

If a person turns up at immigration on the 1st March, unaware of the changes but having prepared for the 800k method, as in previous years, they won't have a problem getting a visa extension. Why not? Because previous years, you were required to season your account, to the tune of 800k baht for 3 months prior to applying for your extension, now you are only required to season your account for 2 months prior to applying for your extension, ergo, the person who had seasoned their account for 3 months prior to applying for their extension would be more than fully compliant. No problem getting a visa extension.

 

As to the 400k, left permanently in your account, look upon it as an initial price to pay for using the 800k method. When you no longer require a visa, you can withdraw it. In each and every subsequent year you will only be required to deposit 400k in your account annually. Half the amount to find compared to previous years. Bonus!

[samtam]

3 hours ago, homeseeker said:

The topic heading mentions 1st March coming. Well seems that right now there are stringent measures in place at CW checking applicants and documents. In the last week I was there to get my extension and I use the 800k in the bank method. Most applications are very carefully checked by 2 or 3 separate senior immigration officers. The bank book is being scrutinized by a supervisor.

Photo of the applicant is taken and for the re-enty permit as well and the papers and passport are double checked by a separate senior officer.

There are signs up all around the offices "No Tips" and it seems to me few agents around the place.

 

 

Were you told anything about the new requirements effective 1 March, viz that you would have to retain THB800k for 3 further months and THB400k thereafter for the remainder of the Extension of Stay period? I note you were processed prior to the the new regulation, but I'm curious as to whether they are even notifying applicants for future reference.

[Jingthing]

6 hours ago, Longcut said:

Sounds reasonable. Thanks.

Reasonable it would be but the information you replied to is based on no actual information from authorities. So until we know more, it is best to ignore such fictions. 

[Jingthing]

5 hours ago, nchuckle said:

Look,they haven’t even thought of how to draft the regulations without ambiguity nor incorporate the post visa seasoning requirements with the initial new guidelines,so what makes you think it’s even occurred to them how to monitor or implement any penalties? They’re as usual simply making it up as they go along!

I think you're right. They don't know. We don't know. People claiming they know should be ignored at this time. 

[Jingthing]

5 hours ago, mlmcleod said:

Why does anyone use the 800K baht for retirement anymore.  The new 65K for income method is way easier.  Just transfer 65K baht every month.  Then withdraw and send it back overseas and repeat.

Let me check. Duh. Because a significant portion of retirees don't have that much income and that much income was never required before and actually isn't required under the new rules, depending on which option you use. However, unfortunately the combo method is the most confusing and poorly communicated option under the new rules so it's is now in the risky class.

If immigration can't tell you their exact rules for it, you have to guess what they are, meaning you could easily be wrong, and get a curt rejection. 

[Jingthing]

5 hours ago, nchuckle said:

There is no ruling in police orders that precludes you from doing that,but see my other comment about what an expensive process it would be.

Yet.

At least in one office (CM) it appears they are demanding backup for the transfers even under the new rules and they must be from abroad. So just recycling most of the same funds risks rejection. 

[Jingthing]

5 hours ago, phuketrichard said:

this is exactly my plan as plan on moving after my next 1 year extension.

I assume, (hope) there is not going to be put into effect that youu need visit immigration every month to check if your 400,000 is still there

It's fair to say it won't be every month.

But it might be three months after the extension and it also might mean further checks during the year.

We just don't know.

If they know, there has been no central communication telling us about standard enforcement. 

Which means for the time being offices can make up any enforcement regime that they want. Will that chaos last a long time? Who knows? 

[Jingthing]

5 hours ago, Pedrogaz said:

All speculation. Wait and see what happens. There is no point wasting time thinking about what might happen.

You're mostly right. 

However, there are people now seriously thinking about leaving (before they get kicked out). So it's reasonable for them to wonder what's going on and how it might impact them as for many of us leaving Thailand is not a quick and easy thing. We've all heard of people trying to leave for years waiting to sell a condo or something like that.