Consequences of illegally using 800K for retirement extension after March 1, 2019

[Jingthing]

Just now, jacko45k said:

It might be more productive to talk solutions and options rather than simply looking at worst case scenarios. 

I find your comment bizarre. Making up fictions about how you wish the enforcement will be is not any kind of solution. 

[ChouDoufu]

too much work for io's to confirm bank balances every 90 days.  most likely outcome will be doing same as before......bank letter showing current balance and copies and original of bankbook.  io needs to see balance never drops below 400k, along with transactions showing balance maintained above 800k -2/+3 months.  fixed account with few transactions and a savings account for daily use would make it much easier and faster.

 

problem comes for those from gang of four and proving whatever immigration decides is acceptable as "income." 

[jacko45k]

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Could be. In any case this is a really big MESS, and that's why I am pushing back so hard on the Pollyanna brigade pushing total B.S. that these are trivial changes that every legit expat will have no problem quickly adjusting to. 

There is a solution that costs approximately 400-500 baht/ week?

[farangx]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

It sounds like you aren't aware of the new rules for seasoning AFTER the extension that actually lasts ALL YEAR. Nobody knows yet for sure what the actual enforcement will be for that at this early stage. 

So you know more than me.  I only take the new rules as it is for an extension, no imagination applied.  I only assumed the full impact of it will be felt next March.  Immigration is just warming us up to it.

 

[jacko45k]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I find your comment bizarre. Making up fictions about how you wish the enforcement will be is not any kind of solution. 

Well I have considered my options wrt the changes and decided I will leave the 800k alone in the bank. I will maybe need a statement from my bank or update the book more often. I expect that to work.

[Jingthing]

Just now, farangx said:

So you know more than me.  I only take the new rules as it is for an extension, no imagination applied.  I only assumed the full impact of it will be felt next March.  Immigration is just warming us up to it.

 

Your post makes no sense. The rules are not only for extension. They are about your bank account for the ENTIRE YEAR after the extension. A very radical change. 

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Well I have considered my options wrt the changes and decided I will leave the 800k alone in the bank. I will maybe need a statement from my bank or update the book more often. I expect that to work.

That should work. Not everyone will be able to do that though especially on short notice if they were doing another method before. Not to mention people that don't want to. If they made the combo method without letters more clear (now it is like muddy mud) that would solve problems for many people too. 

Edited February 8, 2019 by Jingthing

[indepth]

7 hours ago, Wake Up said:

Because you lose a lot of money in exchange rates and fees doing this every month. It is not a good financial idea. Put the 800 k in a savings account, do the math, and you come out way ahead in profit. 

If you keep using the same 65k, you are circumnavigation ( think that's the word) the law. Gives us all a bad name. 

[Jingthing]

Just now, indepth said:

If you keep using the same 65k, you are circumnavigation ( think that's the word) the law. Gives us all a bad name. 

And/or another burn the forest down to catch a few kind of thing that we're already seeing. 

[farangx]

Just now, Jingthing said:

Your post makes no sense. The rules are not only for extension. They are about your bank account for the ENTIRE YEAR after the extension. A very radical change. 

You don't make sense.  If you are not happy with the new rules that affected the seasoning for an extension, then save yourself the pain and don't apply for it.

 

[farangx]

5 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Well I have considered my options wrt the changes and decided I will leave the 800k alone in the bank. I will maybe need a statement from my bank or update the book more often. I expect that to work.

That should work, or have that 800K/400K in fixed deposits.

 

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, farangx said:

You don't make sense.  If you are not happy with the new rules that affected the seasoning for an extension, then save yourself the pain and don't apply for it.

 

From my POV, I would prefer the combo method for next extension but as that is very uncertain without embassy letters currently, the 800K method is really my only option. 

[OneZero]

Most likely logical explanation is no enforcement during the year.  But no update of retirement visa a year later if you don't comply.  As long as it is not stated that there will indeed be enforcement during the year, it is probably safe to assume the potential problem would be when going to renew next year.  Otherwise how could they possibly say "We warned you".

[farangx]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

From my POV, I would prefer the combo method for next extension but as that is very uncertain without embassy letters currently, the 800K method is really my only option. 

Your POV is unimportant.  Only the rules matter.

 

[jacko45k]

9 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Not to mention people that don't want to.

I don't see why Immigration need to accommodate those who simply oppose the requirements.

Or they can use a 'facilitator'....

[Jingthing]

Just now, farangx said:

Your POV is unimportant.  Only the rules matter.

 

We know the rules for the 800K but we don't know the enforcement. Of course people's POV matters. People are facing a new set of circumstances and they need to make important decisions based on the rules, unclear or not. In my opinion, relying on a combo method application without embassy letter for the immediate future and probably longer is very ill advised. That's my POV and suggestion to others. 

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, jacko45k said:

I don't see why Immigration need to accommodate those who simply oppose the requirements.

Or they can use a 'facilitator'....

That was a sleazy reply.

I made it clear their other alternative would often be a combo method.

But combo method without embassy letter is massively unclear now.

So people may not "want" to do the 800K and they really should be able to do a combo but without an embassy letter that's very risky at this time.

That's why I suggest to people IF THEY CAN that were hoping to do a combo application without embassy to prepare for an 800K application at least for this year. 

[jacko45k]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

We know the rules for the 800K but we don't know the enforcement. Of course people's POV matters. People are facing a new set of circumstances and they need to make important decisions based on the rules, unclear or not. In my opinion, relying on a combo method application without embassy letter for the immediate future and probably longer is very ill advised. That's my POV and suggestion to others. 

At the meeting today the combination method was stated as available. 

[Longcut]

47 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

If you do not have reason to attend immigration, it is unlikely they will know anything about your accounts. 

You can transfer quite a sum out of Thailand by putting it in you pocket. If over $10,000 consider declaring it.

$10,000 won't even come close. Plus, if it's in Thai Baht. I would need a couple of suitcases.

[jacko45k]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

That was a sleazy reply.

I made it clear their other alternative would often be a combo method.

But combo method without embassy letter is massively unclear now.

So people may not "want" to do the 800K and they really should be able to do a combo but without an embassy letter that's very risky at this time.

That's why I suggest to people IF THEY CAN that were hoping to do a combo application without embassy to prepare for an 800K application at least for this year. 

I do not see why it was 'sleazy', someone saying 'Oh I don't want to do that' is opposing immigration, they certainly cannot make up their own rules.

How is combination method without Embassy letter unclear, show monthly deposits into Thai bank from overseas and show seasoned deposits amounting to 800k p.a.? Suggesting people use 800k is also valid, providing they are not in the 'I don't want to do that group'...

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

At the meeting today the combination method was stated as available. 

I think it's probably available but what we need are specific details on the exact mechanics of the requirements especially in view of the 800K bank new rules, BECAUSE a combo application is a mix of both income and bank methods.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, jacko45k said:

I do not see why it was 'sleazy', someone saying 'Oh I don't want to do that' is opposing immigration, they certainly cannot make up their own rules.

How is combination method without Embassy letter unclear, show monthly deposits into Thai bank from overseas and show seasoned deposits amounting to 800k p.a.? Suggesting people use 800k is also valid, providing they are not in the 'I don't want to do that group'...

I have posted several times on why it is totally unclear on how to do a combo application without letter and I'm not going to repeat that again just for you. There are limits.

[Chongalulu]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

Yet.

At least in one office (CM) it appears they are demanding backup for the transfers even under the new rules and they must be from abroad. So just recycling most of the same funds risks rejection. 

The issue comes in terms of identifying that the funds come from abroad (even when they have) as I know you are aware from other threads,if that’s what you mean by backup? Once there I think even Immigration offices can have no issues with withdrawing it, do it in cash ,ostensibly for living expenses and use it with Dee money to repatriate . But you are basically correct in that the widespread ambiguity allows an IO to make up any old ???? they can think of.

[jacko45k]

2 minutes ago, Longcut said:

$10,000 won't even come close. Plus, if it's in Thai Baht. I would need a couple of suitcases.

800,000 baht is what we were discussing, US$25,000 That is about 1 inch tall in $100s.

Are you using Vietnamese Dong?

[Jingthing]

Just now, nchuckle said:

The issue comes in terms of identifying that the funds come from abroad (even when they have) as I know you are aware from other threads,if that’s what you mean by backup? Once there I think even Immigration offices can have no issues with withdrawing it, do it in cash ,ostensibly for living expenses and use it with Dee money to repatriate . But you are basically correct in that the widespread ambiguity allows an IO to make up any old ???? they can think of.

No there is more. CM is looking at imports and asking, tell us what that income is. If you're just recycling basically the same money, an office like CM is going to turn you down. Doesn't mean that attitude will spread but it's always a risk. Cheers. 

[ChouDoufu]

6 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

At the meeting today the combination method was stated as available. 

how about those from countries whose embassies no longer provide income letters?  what is required to prove income?  is proof of monthly foreign transfers enough, or is some proof of actual income required?  why would i want to lock up 400/800k if i can just transfer 65k monthly with no balance requirements?

[Sheryl]

1 hour ago, ChouDoufu said:

good question.  what does "income" mean to immigration?  is it earned income or pension only?  is unearned income or passive income treated differently?  will funds from savings "coming in" to thailand be considered "income?"

 

an embassy affidavit that certifies monthly stated "income" does not specify the source.  how could it when some embassies require no documentation? 

 

will applicants be required to provide a statement from a pension to prove income?  if "income" is not from a pension, what will be needed.....and will the new requirement(s) be uniform at all offices?

The new rules require only proof of 65k a month coming into a Thai bank account from abroad and say nothing about where the money was from (as long as brought in from abroad).

 

There have been reports that CM immigration is asking for letters from "pension providers". No idea how that will shake out as they come to learn that there are many more types of retirement income than pensions (and also that almost no pensions equal 65k).  This is something they are doing of their own accord, not required by the rules. Unclear why. We've had accounts from other provinces of needing to show nothing more than bank statement, but those were cases where the bank statement included clear designation of foreign transfer. We haven't yet heard from anyone who made foreign transfers that are nto coded as such on their bank statement, or used a bank that uses its own numerical codes that are not readily self explanatory. It's early days still.

[jacko45k]

2 minutes ago, ChouDoufu said:

how about those from countries whose embassies no longer provide income letters?  what is required to prove income?  is proof of monthly foreign transfers enough, or is some proof of actual income required?  why would i want to lock up 400/800k if i can just transfer 65k monthly with no balance requirements?

You just offered your own simpler solution. Make 65,000 baht transfers each month. Be capable of showing they came from overseas. You can start spending the money immediately.

[Sheryl]

13 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

At the meeting today the combination method was stated as available. 

We know it is available. We just don'tt know how it works/the rules for it. The new directive is very, very unclear on this.

 

What I think they meant to say, was that monthly income + lump sum need to total 800K (as before) and the income part of that is subject to the new income rules (every month, into a Thai bank account, with proof it came from abroad) and the lump sum part is subject to the new rules for lump sums in that all of it must be there for 2 months before and 3 months after extension and then half of it must remain the rest of the year.

 

That's what I think they meant, because it is logical, but I can't be sure.

 

Others have interpreted it to mean you must always keep 400K in the bank, even if the lump sum you need to total 800K is much less than that.

 

If I were an IO I would probably avoid doing any extensions using this method until it was clarified as it is impossible for them to be sure what the "correct" way is.

 

 

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, jacko45k said:

You just offered your own simpler solution. Make 65,000 baht transfers each month. Be capable of showing they came from overseas. You can start spending the money immediately.

Yes that should work as long as it's actual income OR you aren't unlucky enough to meet an officer that demands that you prove what that income is if it isn't all actual income. Seems to be an issue already in CM. Doesn't mean it will be widespread but doesn't mean it won't be either.