Poll -- new confusing retirement police orders giving you stress?

[Jingthing]

7 minutes ago, emptypockets said:

What is NOT clear in the police order?

Orders. Not order.

 

Implementation/enforcement specifics for income method without embassy letters. Applicants are not told what they need to do to expect a successful application as they are a combination of bank and income the guidelines need to be very specific, yet we are basically told NOTHING

 

Not enough detail on the flexibility possibilities for full income method without embassy letters. Many examples. Such as if one monthly transfer is 64,999, is it game over?

 

Implementation/enforcement of the new seasoning rules for 800K. They say the rules. They say nothing of enforcement mechanics or the consequences

 

That's a start and I make no claims of covering everything. 

[emptypockets]

Just now, Jingthing said:

Orders. Not order.

 

Implementation/enforcement specifics for income method without embassy letters. Applicants are not told what they need to do to expect a successful application as they are a combination of bank and income the guidelines need to be very specific, yet we are basically told NOTHING

 

Not enough detail on the flexibility possibilities for full income method without embassy letters. Many examples. Such as if one monthly transfer is 64,999, is it game over?

 

Implementation/enforcement of the new seasoning rules for 800K. They say the rules. They say nothing of enforcement mechanics or the consequences

 

That's a start and I make no claims of covering everything. 

Gee i thought it was crystal clear. 65k or 800K with the proviso of not dropping below 400k for the requisite time period to be eligible to apply for a further extension of stay.

What is so hard to understand?

I realise this may be stressing some people out...but the order itself is not that hard to comprehend it is?

[Jingthing]

21 minutes ago, emptypockets said:

The way I see it is.....you want to apply for a new or further  extension of stay then you must meet the criterion as published in the police order. there was NO mention of the combo method being changed only the 800k in the bank method. I think you are all stressing out because that is what you do about anything!!

Seems to be the accepted norm these days...black face...OMG...the end of the world is nigh!!!

Come on guys...we're mostly adults on this forum aren't we. Use some intelligence for once. It's not about good Thais Vs bad farangs. Its about dodgy people generally. They did it with visa runners, ED abusers, now dodgy retirement extensions and dodgy marriage extensions will most likely be next. Can hardly blame the Thai people for wanting to clean up their immigration procedures...Can you?

I call B.S. 

If you're such a smarty pants, detail right here and now the specific rules for doing a combination application without embassy letters that will definitely be accepted if followed. 
You can't. 

Nobody can yet.

They haven't told us. 

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, emptypockets said:

Gee i thought it was crystal clear. 65k or 800K with the proviso of not dropping below 400k for the requisite time period to be eligible to apply for a further extension of stay.

What is so hard to understand?

I realise this may be stressing some people out...but the order itself is not that hard to comprehend it is?

That's a gross simplification and anyone that has been following these issues knows it. So you're playing to that crowd. Just for fun. But I don't consider that you're adding any value here. 

[emptypockets]

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I call B.S. 

If you're such a smarty pants, detail right here and now the specific rules for doing a combination application without embassy letters that will definitely be accepted if followed. 
You can't. 

Nobody can yet.

They haven't told us. 

As far as I am aware nothing has changed with the combo method. IT WAS NOT MENTIONED in the latest order.  Neither was any marriage extension changes mentioned much to the chagrin of the perpetual sadsacks who frequent this forum.

IMHO this is all about dodgy retirees gaming the system using agents, but whether it is successful remains to be seen. Surely you don't have to be a Rhodes scholar to realise this?

You want them to tell you nothing has changed? Get off you keyboard and go to your local immigration office and ask, instead of scaremongering on TVF!

[Jingthing]

Just now, emptypockets said:

As far as I am aware nothing has changed with the combo method. IT WAS NOT MENTIONED in the latest order.  Neither was any marriage extension changes mentioned much to the chagrin of the perpetual sadsacks who frequent this forum.

IMHO this is all about dodgy retirees gaming the system using agents, but whether it is successful remains to be seen. Surely you don't have to be a Rhodes scholar to realise this?

You want them to tell you nothing has changed? Get off you keyboard and go to your local immigration office and ask, instead of scaremongering on TVF!

As I expected you don't even understand the basics of the specific issues that have been mentioned on the forum numerous times already. Please don't bother me further with your obnoxious, ill informed hostility. Find someone else to play with. I'm no longer amused. 

[Jingthing]

Just now, Corruption 101 said:

Perhaps the baked in uncertainty in the new rules is not incompetence, but rather a well planned strategy to bolster corruption revenue.

It's a theory! What we do already know is that agents are already out with new (much higher) price quotes to game the new scheme. So compliers get punished. Impressive!

[emptypockets]

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

As I expected you don't even understand the basics of the specific issues that have been mentioned on the forum numerous times already. Please don't bother me further with your obnoxious, ill informed hostility. Find someone else to play with. I'm no longer amused. 

I understand them excruciatingly well.

I am not here for your amusement.

I have zero hostility to anyone.

[champers]

Considering all the hot air expended on other threads, a surprising score for those with no stress. 

I feel for those at the other end of the scale. I reckon circumstances beyond their control are a major concern, not least currency exchange rates. Maybe the main news story today offers a brighter future not too far ahead. Fingers crossed.

 

[emptypockets]

if you are referring to what I am thinking you are referring to....that nomination is dead in the water. The big guy has spoken. It ain't gonna happen.

It was on the news an hour ago.

Edited February 8, 2019 by emptypockets

[champers]

6 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

It's a theory! What we do already know is that agents are already out with new (much higher) price quotes to game the new scheme. So compliers get punished. Impressive!

How are compliers punished by higher agent rates? Looks like non-compliers who are being punished to me.

[Jingthing]

10 minutes ago, champers said:

How are compliers punished by higher agent rates? Looks like non-compliers who are being punished to me.

Are you serious? The perceived intention was to stop the corruption. We already see that isn't happening. Sure the customers will be charged more but they'll get their extension if they pay. The people that have been following the rules to the letter for many years are now under much tougher rules and if they can't meet them, fail to understand them, or have some kind of foul (like going under 400K) they face very serious consequences. Much more serious than paying more into the corruption food chain. 

[ChouDoufu]

1 hour ago, Corruption 101 said:

If you stop working on a Non B you are on overstay.  If you get divorced when you are on a Non O marriage you are on overstay.  

 

Can someone please explain to me, like I was a small child, or a golden retriever, why, if you fail to keep 400K in your account, that you will not be viewed as an overstay.

what happens under the current orders for someone on monthly income?  if monthly xfers drop to 60k for a few months are they considered on overstay?  will they be rounded up and deported?  or will they simply be denied an extension next time they apply?

[marqus12]

Why should someone who does not have a family here want to stay here

when there are so many other countries?

For what ?

I think there are two options...
-Or someone has respect for themselves
-or agree to be a pernament  rape victim !

[emptypockets]

1 minute ago, ChouDoufu said:

what happens under the current orders for someone on monthly income?  if monthly xfers drop to 60k for a few months are they considered on overstay?  will they be rounded up and deported?  or will they simply be denied an extension next time they apply?

yes....simply denied

[champers]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Are you serious? The perceived intention was to stop the corruption. We already see that isn't happening. Sure the customers will be charged more but they'll get their extension if they pay. The people that have been following the rules to the letter for many years are now under much tougher rules and if they can't meet them, fail to understand them, or have some kind of foul (like going under 400K) they face very serious consequences. Much more serious than paying more into the corruption food chain. 

Your perception is not the same as mine. We will have to agree to disagree.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, champers said:

Your perception is not the same as mine. We will have to agree to disagree.

We don't have to do anything. 

[happy chappie]

No stress for me.ive invested most of my life savings in houses n bungalows in issan that I've got rented out and in 15 yrs will see my ROI. I gave up my retirement visa as I'm off to the uk to start from near on scratch but will base myself in Vietnam in 9 months and live a life of no worries,visa problems and one messed up country that can go tits up at any time.think positively and don't let  them get you down.thailand needs me more than I need it is my thinking.sorry but I'm not being bullied with jumping  through hoops and being held to ransom with £20,000 stuffed in some dodgy bank.at the moment I can live very well in Vietnam but am just surviving here.i see it as by moving im doubling my income.

[wobalt]

No stress as I have other options


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[thaicurious]

A little annoyance by the earlier than planned tax hit and future less invested, but maybe less stress by the relative simplicity of going lump sum. Like much in life, it's a wash.

 

I feel for those without the 800k to spare and I feel income is more important a consideration, generally. If someone's got 65k/month-whether by pension or whatever--to generate that income privately at a 4% safe withdrawal rate equates to a retirement portfolio of 19,500,000 baht or $618,462 US.

 

The average American Social Security is currently $1,461 which equates (at 4% SWR) to a portfolio of $438,300. Nothing to sneeze at, particularly considering how little most people have in savings and other investments.

 

And anyone can have for practical consideration any non-Bezos amount in savings that can be wiped out in a single medical emergency, sometimes even with insurance that may pay partial or drop the case during or whatever. Plus in aging might come some dementia and getting conned out of money, never mind financial setbacks on a countrywide or world scale, so I'd not be so quick as many on these forums to denigrate those without substantial enough savings to lump sum it currently.

 

Though I've been googling to find just what was the intent, what is the effect of expat retirement to Thailand. How does that benefit them?

 

Haven't yet found the stats I'd hoped for, ie, what is the financial impact upon the Thai economy by retiree expats. Though I haven't found a dollar or proportion figure yet, by population alone it doesn't look like much. Like maybe people should still feel more gratitude and less entitled even with these changes?

 

According to this paper

http://www.migrationcenter.mahidol.ac.th/download_publication/264-Internation-Migration-Thailand.pdf

there was "almost 2.8 million foreigners working and living in Thailand in 2007

 

Other Temporary Stay 2007

Retirement 22,388

Migrants

Registered  535,732

Unregistered 1,300,000"

 

Thai population 2017 69.4 million. In 2007 there was 22,388 retiree expats. Looking for more current numbers but even if that 2007 # has since doubled, everyone would have to eat a lot of Pad Thai to put a dent in that economy. At a very local level in an expat community, sure, there's expat economic support, but overall? Adding to others in a basket of categories there's some effect but isolated? So, perspective.

 

I personally have no issue with Thailand wanting proof of funds. It seems completely in line with their original intent of so-called retirement visas as this is very different from people immigrating to work to pay taxes, to directly increase the economy by building business, etc.

 

By same source cited above:

"This development, spurred by the aging of the population in well-off East Asian and Western countries and the growth of the Thai tourism-oriented medical industry, has been facilitated by the open-door policy of the Thai Government towards foreign retirees. The key turning point in the marketing of the country as a low cost retirement destination was the establishment in 1998 of a renewable one-year non-immigrant visa for middle income people of 55 or older, followed by other facilitation, such as the “Elite Card Program”, offered to wealthy visitors wishing to spend time or retire in the country (Asian Economic News, 1998; IHT, 2008)"

 

If that source is correct, this whole expat retirement gig in Thailand was not originally set up as any sort of last ditch refuge for retirees of minimum means. Their concept from inception was to allow for retirement home making by "middle income people."

 

What is middle income?

 

http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2011/08/02/thailand-now-upper-middle-income-economy

"As of July 1, 2011, upper-middle-income economies are those with average incomes of US$3,976 to US$12,275. Using the Atlas method, Thailand’s GNI per capita is currently at US$4,210"

 

USA middle income

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/09/06/are-you-in-the-american-middle-class/

"ranging from about $45,200 to $135,600 in 2016"

 

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-4443694/UK-middle-class-one-smallest-poorest-Europe.html

"Middle class British family of four had a minimum disposable income of between £19,000 - £57,350 in 2010"

 

Often stress is self induced. Not caused by outside events themselves, but by inner realizations that didn't before match outside realities.

Edited February 8, 2019 by thaicurious

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, ChouDoufu said:

what happens under the current orders for someone on monthly income?  if monthly xfers drop to 60k for a few months are they considered on overstay?  will they be rounded up and deported?  or will they simply be denied an extension next time they apply?

Denied the next extension if applying using income.

[SheungWan]

8 hours ago, Crossy said:

No stress yet, coz I'm still working, my biggest problem when I retire is going to be showing the lump sum came from outside Thailand (all my money is earned here). Not exactly difficult to fix with an out-in transfer but still a bind.

I'll just continue to worry where it's all going. Something to do with being married to a wonderful Thai lady who does not do "cheap".

One suggestion would be to try to open a bank account in HK, then carry out some converted cash to that account and then set up the transfers. Longer term also not a bad idea for some savings outside LOS.

[emptypockets]

Another suggestion is to put 800k in a thai bank  while you are still working and sleep soundly at night. Or since you are married...go the 400k route...nobody cares where it came from, and you can still keep working!

 

I can't see immigration hurting their own people i.e. a thai lady/man married to a foreigner as long as they can meet the pretty simple conditions.

 

All of the recent actions IMHO is to reduce the number of single elderly males in the country. They add nothing to the country apart from a pittance of a pension that Thailand won't miss if they leave and if I'm truly honest they do nothing for the culture of the country.

The old con stories about Isaan families going broke etc etc......I just spent two days in BKK before coming home to Isaan. Talked to 4 bar girls. One from Isaan....3 from Bangkok.

Not too many sick buffaloes in Bangkok from what I have seen.

 

And lets face it...what country as they develop want a bunch of elderly single blokes living there? There is no logical reason these days....may have been when Thaksin lowered the requirements, but not anymore.

I see many old fellows whining about how they bought land, cars etc etc ad nauseum. Why didn't you get married. Scared of commitment?? Well the chooks have come home to roost it seems.

Edited February 8, 2019 by emptypockets

[HAKAPALITA]

unfortunately the ones who caused this stress, will still beat the system. The nets been cast badly, missing border bouncers, nomads, ed visa cheats, phoney teachers ,YOU TUBE vlogers. its stressed those who should be left alone imo and totally missed the bums no felang likes anyway

 

 

[fforest1]

I guess all you stress level #1 guys just are not getting that there is more visa trouble in the pipeline...

[emptypockets]

Please expand on your comment. What are you suggesting?

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, fforest1 said:

I guess all you stress level #1 guys just are not getting that there is more visa trouble in the pipeline...

Yes.

For examples suppose you want to do a conversion from a tourist visa or 30 day stamp to an O visa in Thailand to get set up to then apply for a retirement extension. 

How is that effected by all the rule changes for retirement visas?

If people must get O visas or O-A visas abroad, what changes are in store for those?

 

[fforest1]

Whats funny is after all the so called riff-raff is cleaned out you rich guys and elite visa holders will have no one left to talk to but the Chinese and Indians...lol 

[Jingthing]

Just now, fforest1 said:

Whats funny is after all the so called riff-raff is cleaned out you rich guys and elite visa holders will have no one left to talk to but the Chinese and Indians...lol 

Sounds fine to me. But I'm a little concerned about all the "elite" passengers in the airport limos that will have less class than the drivers. Do I need to dress up for the limo rides?

[emptypockets]

11 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Yes.

For examples suppose you want to do a conversion from a tourist visa or 30 day stamp to an O visa in Thailand to get set up to then apply for a retirement extension. 

How is that effected by all the rule changes for retirement visas?

If people must get O visas or O-A visas abroad, what changes are in store for those?

 

Meet the rules that exist at the time of application.

People seem to forget that they apply for  12 month extension of stay....not a lifetime pass. Even after forty years, unless you get PR or naturalization...you are still effectively a long stay tourist.

Edited February 8, 2019 by emptypockets