Combo Method

[bangkoklasse]

Is the combo method allowed under the new rules for the retirement extension? If so are there any changes from the old when doing it?

Edited February 10, 2019 by bangkoklasse

[Sheryl]

It is allowed.

 

The rules are very unclear and open to multiple interpretations. The main point if uncertainty is whether the deposit sum has to always be above 400k or whether it needs to be the amount required to reach the 800K total and maintained for 2+3 months then 50% of it thereafter.

 

One report from Petchabun immigration, they understand it the first way (even if you need only another 100K to reach 800K you have to deposit 400K and keep it there all year). But that is just one Imm office. Others may understand differently. Best to ask your own.

 

 

[elviajero]

Yes; but with big change.

 

You must use and keep a minimum of 400K in the bank to qualify. 

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

One report from Petchabun immigration, they understand it the first way (even if you need only another 100K to reach 800K you have to deposit 400K and keep it there all year).

To get this straight:

64K Baht / mo = "You need another 400K in the bank you can never touch."

65K Baht / mo = "You don't need any money in the bank at all."

 

That is what at least one office is pushing, now?

 

[glegolo]

4 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

To get this straight:

64K Baht / mo = "You need another 400K in the bank you can never touch."

65K Baht / mo = "You don't need any money in the bank at all."

 

That is what at least one office is pushing, now?

 

Hope the immigration will read that quoted post you did.

 

glegolo

[Sheryl]

That is what this one office seems to believe the very unclearly written new rules mean. 

[elviajero]

19 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

To get this straight:

64K Baht / mo = "You need another 400K in the bank you can never touch."

65K Baht / mo = "You don't need any money in the bank at all."

Correct.

 

Those are the new rules. I’ve had it confirmed from two separate contacts within immigration.

[elviajero]

4 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

That is what this one office seems to believe the very unclearly written new rules mean. 

I think the rules are clear Sheryl. We just want to interpret them differently.

[Justin Side]

3 minutes ago, elviajero said:

I think the rules are clear Sheryl. We just want to interpret them differently.

Yep.

As clear as mud.

[Sheryl]

8 minutes ago, elviajero said:

I think the rules are clear Sheryl. We just want to interpret them differently.

I don't "want" anything, I am not using this method.

 

The rules as written are NOT clear and can reasonably be interpreted in at least 3 different ways.

[scubascuba3]

I think the rules are clear Sheryl. We just want to interpret them differently.

Can you state the rules in a clear way with no mud involved?

[elviajero]

27 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

I don't "want" anything, I am not using this method.

 

The rules as written are NOT clear and can reasonably be interpreted in at least 3 different ways.

Well you can stop interpreting and speculating on behalf of others.

 

It’s now clarified that the rules — as written — are; 

• Cash and income totalling 800K.
• The cash element must be in the account for 2 months prior to applying, and 3 months after the extension is granted.
• A minimum balance of 400K must be maintained at all times.

 

[scubascuba3]

Well you can stop interpreting and speculating on behalf of others.
 
It’s now clarified that the rules — as written — are; 

• Cash and income totalling 800K.
• The cash element must be in the account for 2 months prior to applying, and 3 months after the extension is granted.
• A minimum balance of 400K must be maintained at all times.

 

Your last 2 points contradict each other?

[elviajero]

4 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

9 minutes ago, elviajero said:

Well you can stop interpreting and speculating on behalf of others.
 
It’s now clarified that the rules — as written — are; 

• Cash and income totalling 800K.
• The cash element must be in the account for 2 months prior to applying, and 3 months after the extension is granted.
• A minimum balance of 400K must be maintained at all times.

 

Your last 2 points contradict each other?

No they don’t.

 

A minimum balance of 400K must be maintained — so if you’re using 500K towards the 800K — you can withdraw up to 100K after 3 months.

[jacko45k]

20 minutes ago, elviajero said:

A minimum balance of 400K must be maintained at all times.

Well actually the one I read said 400 baht if we are to take it as written verbatim!

[Sheryl]

20 minutes ago, elviajero said:

Well you can stop interpreting and speculating on behalf of others.

 

It’s now clarified that the rules — as written — are; 

• Cash and income totalling 800K.
• The cash element must be in the account for 2 months prior to applying, and 3 months after the extension is granted.
• A minimum balance of 400K must be maintained at all times.

 

This is not what the rules state. What they state is:

 

"5) Must have and annual earning and fund deposited with a commercial bank in Thailand totalling of no less than THB 800,000 until the filing date. The said fund must remain in the account prior to and after the permission is granted and the alien can make a withdrawal under the same conditions as stated in (4)."

 

And (4) says:

 

"(4) At least 2 months prior to filing date, and at least 3 months after being granted permission, the alien must have fund deposited in a bank in Thailand of no less than THB 800,000. The alien can withdraw the fund 3 months after being granted permission and the remaining balance must be no less than THB 400,00 "

 

There are at least 3 ways of interpreting that:

 

1. All of (4) applies literally, i.e. there has to be 800K for 2+3 months then at least 400K thereafter. That, however, makes no sense as it would then be identical to the lump sum method. It also implies that people using the combo method can't spend their monthly income for a year.

 

2.  All of (4) applies in principle to the deposit amount, i.e. you have to have the full deposit amount in there for 2+3 months and cannot withdraw more than half of it thereafter.

 

3. Only the second part of (4) applies, and only to the deposit amount, and it applies literally, i.e. you must maintain a minimum balance of 400K at all times even if the amount needed to total 800K was much less than that amount. That is your interpretation. 

 

 

 

 

[elviajero]

3 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

21 minutes ago, elviajero said:

A minimum balance of 400K must be maintained at all times.

Well actually the one I read said 400 baht if we are to take it as written verbatim!

It didn’t. The typo in the translation was THB 400,00. Neither 400 or 400,000.

 

Context making the amount obvious aside. The use of a comma after 400 suggests it’s thousands and that an 0 is missing from 400,000. If it were THB 400 a decimal point would be used to write THB 400.00.

[ubonjoe]

5 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

And (4) says:

 

"(4) At least 2 months prior to filing date, and at least 3 months after being granted permission,

Or only that part of it.

[Sheryl]

Yes.  It is very hard to believe that in the case of someone who has say 64,000 a month in income deposits, they still have to deposit (and not spend) 400K.

[scubascuba3]

This is not what the rules state. What they state is:
 
"5) Must have and annual earning and fund deposited with a commercial bank in Thailand totalling of no less than THB 800,000 until the filing date. The said fund must remain in the account prior to and after the permission is granted and the alien can make a withdrawal under the same conditions as stated in (4)."
 
And (4) says:
 
"(4) At least 2 months prior to filing date, and at least 3 months after being granted permission, the alien must have fund deposited in a bank in Thailand of no less than THB 800,000. The alien can withdraw the fund 3 months after being granted permission and the remaining balance must be no less than THB 400,00 "
 

 

No mention of a fixed amount of income monthly, so maybe every 2 months, 3 months, 4 months, who knows, although safer to do monthly

[elviajero]

33 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

This is not what the rules state. What they state is:

 

"5) Must have and annual earning and fund deposited with a commercial bank in Thailand totalling of no less than THB 800,000 until the filing date. The said fund must remain in the account prior to and after the permission is granted and the alien can make a withdrawal under the same conditions as stated in (4)."

 

And (4) says:

 

"(4) At least 2 months prior to filing date, and at least 3 months after being granted permission, the alien must have fund deposited in a bank in Thailand of no less than THB 800,000. The alien can withdraw the fund 3 months after being granted permission and the remaining balance must be no less than THB 400,00 "

 

There are at least 3 ways of interpreting that:

 

1. All of (4) applies literally, i.e. there has to be 800K for 2+3 months then at least 400K thereafter. That, however, makes no sense as it would then be identical to the lump sum method. It also implies that people using the combo method can't spend their monthly income for a year.

 

2.  All of (4) applies in principle to the deposit amount, i.e. you have to have the full deposit amount in there for 2+3 months and cannot withdraw more than half of it thereafter.

 

3. Only the second part of (4) applies, and only to the deposit amount, and it applies literally, i.e. you must maintain a minimum balance of 400K at all times even if the amount needed to total 800K was much less than that amount. That is your interpretation. 

If you read (5) in conjunction with (4) the intent of the rule (5) is clear - albeit it badly written (missing some punctuation) - and it has now been confirmed.

 

First sentence of rule (5): "Must have and annual earning and fund deposited with a commercial bank in Thailand totalling of no less than THB 800,000 until the filing date."

• Clearly cash and income totalling 800K.

Second sentence of rule (5) that refers to rule (4): "The said fund must remain in the account prior to and after the permission is granted and the alien can make a withdrawal under the same conditions as stated in (4)."

• Condition (4) states: "At least 2 months prior to filing date, and at least 3 months after being granted permission, the alien must have fund deposited in a bank in Thailand".
• Condition (4) states: "The alien can withdraw the fund 3 months after being granted permission and the remaining balance must be no less than THB 400,00".
• To use cash to top up income you must deposit/have the cash at least element 2 months prior to the filing date. And in order to maintain the minimum 400K balance new retirees clearly need to deposit at least 400K in cash. They are assuming the income transferred in during the initial 5 months will be fully drawdown.
• The 400K is a one time requirement as it has to be maintained thereafter.
• At this time - I assume that people renewing using this method during the next year will only need to top up their existing bank balance to 400K at least 2 months before applying.

[Sheryl]

23 minutes ago, elviajero said:

If you read (5) in conjunction with (4) the intent of the rule (5) is clear - albeit it badly written (missing some punctuation) - and it has now been confirmed.

 

Where has it now been confirmed? I have not seen anything issued by TI other than these prior police orders.

[elviajero]

19 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Where has it now been confirmed?

I made that clear earlier in the topic. However, there is another topic running, and the OP has now uploaded a copy of his local offices requirements under the new rules, which spells it out.

 

19 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

I have not seen anything issued by TI other than these prior police orders.

And you won't, beyond what the individual offices produce. The rules are exactly as published and explained above.

[singburisam]

2 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Yes.  It is very hard to believe that in the case of someone who has say 64,000 a month in income deposits, they still have to deposit (and not spend) 400K.

"Hard to believe"?  Wasn't it Lewis Carroll who, speaking of Thai immigration, said "Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast" ?

 

Three questions about the ฿65,000 monthly:

(a) Is it true they just examine a notation in the bankbook that indicates whether the funds came from overseas?  What's stopping someone from sending money to their overseas friend and having the friend wire-transfer it back?

(b) Instead of ฿65,000 monthly would ฿130,000 once every two months be OK?  I'd save a lot on wire-transfer fees.  (Actually, I already get ฿50,000 monthly from SocSec and just need the extra ฿15,000.)

(c) my American friend gets more than ฿65,000 monthly altogether IF he includes the funds sent to his disabled daughter for whom my retired friend is trustee.  What are his chances of Immigration accepting this?  (Two bankbooks, one of which has daughter's name as well as my friend's.)

[Sheryl]

(a)  It remains to be seen what different offices will do. The rules refer only to the bank statement. Chiang Mia immigration has been reported to be requiring letters from a "pension provider" as well. Chiang Ria, only report to date, accepted just bank statement.

 

Note that banks differ in how they show things and some are easier to understand than others. Some cannot be understood (in terms of source of funds) without reference to bank codes which may not appear on the statement.  And if the transfer was other than through SWIFT (e.g. used a FX service) it might show as a domestic transfer.

 

Petchabun immigration is reported to be requiring that bank letter state that the funds came from abroad.

 

Nothing in the rules to prevent you from sending money back, this has been discussed in many other threads.  But a single withdrawal of all the funds, every month, might raise some questions as to what is going on, as it would certainly look odd.

 

(b)NO. It has to be 65K or more every single month.

 

(c) NO. Only bank accounts in your own name are acceptable. No joint accounts. This has always been true, nothing new. The other points above are new.

[Peterw42]

5 minutes ago, singburisam said:

"Hard to believe"?  Wasn't it Lewis Carroll who, speaking of Thai immigration, said "Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast" ?

 

Three questions about the ฿65,000 monthly:

(a) Is it true they just examine a notation in the bankbook that indicates whether the funds came from overseas?  What's stopping someone from sending money to their overseas friend and having the friend wire-transfer it back?

(b) Instead of ฿65,000 monthly would ฿130,000 once every two months be OK?  I'd save a lot on wire-transfer fees.  (Actually, I already get ฿50,000 monthly from SocSec and just need the extra ฿15,000.)

(c) my American friend gets more than ฿65,000 monthly altogether IF he includes the funds sent to his disabled daughter for whom my retired friend is trustee.  What are his chances of Immigration accepting this?  (Two bankbooks, one of which has daughter's name as well as my friend's.)

a) Nothing to stop you except the exchange losses and fees each month.

If you kept the money in a foreign currency account here (no exchange losses) and used someone like Citibank (who do free transfers between Citibank accounts in separate countries), you could maybe beat the system. 

 

b) the police order says 65k "each" month, probably come down to individual offices if they will accept large transfers.

 

c) I cant see how they would accept it if its not coming into his account

[bigginhill]

On 2/4/2019 at 10:45 AM, Sheryl said:

Yes, but the criteria are very, very unclear. At least 2 different interpretations floating around including one that says the fixed amount can't be less than 400K.

 

Basically no one knows.

 

there is even a report from one quarter that the whole business might refer only to first time extensions in which no issue.

 

But again, no one knows for sure. What had been listed does nto specify new extensions only.

 

2 hours ago, elviajero said:

If you read (5) in conjunction with (4) the intent of the rule (5) is clear - albeit it badly written (missing some punctuation) - and it has now been confirmed.

 

First sentence of rule (5): "Must have and annual earning and fund deposited with a commercial bank in Thailand totalling of no less than THB 800,000 until the filing date."

• Clearly cash and income totalling 800K.

Second sentence of rule (5) that refers to rule (4): "The said fund must remain in the account prior to and after the permission is granted and the alien can make a withdrawal under the same conditions as stated in (4)."

• Condition (4) states: "At least 2 months prior to filing date, and at least 3 months after being granted permission, the alien must have fund deposited in a bank in Thailand".
• Condition (4) states: "The alien can withdraw the fund 3 months after being granted permission and the remaining balance must be no less than THB 400,00".
• To use cash to top up income you must deposit/have the cash at least element 2 months prior to the filing date. And in order to maintain the minimum 400K balance new retirees clearly need to deposit at least 400K in cash. They are assuming the income transferred in during the initial 5 months will be fully drawdown.
• The 400K is a one time requirement as it has to be maintained thereafter.
• At this time - I assume that people renewing using this method during the next year will only need to top up their existing bank balance to 400K at least 2 months before applying.

Hi, 

I will be doing the combo method in roughly 20 days. 

300,000 in the bank and an income letter dated Dicember from the British Embassy.

 

I go over the required amount by about 50,000 Baht.

 

I have another view of the required amount to be kept in the bank, 400,000 is 50% of the 800,000 required by the deposit condition, and due to the fact there is  more than one option, one of which is the income letter.

The income letter on it's own to the full amount requires no deposit, no keeping an amount on the account for 5 months, no foreign transfers to the thai bank.

My reading of the of art 5 " withdrawal under the same conditions as stated in art 4",  is that I have to leave the entire sum I submitted for the extension approval ie 300,000 for 3 months and 50% can be withdrawn after the 3 months.

I know logic doesn't live in our musings, but it seems logical  based on all the available options. 

 

 

 

Edited February 10, 2019 by bigginhill
edit

[Sheryl]

42 minutes ago, bigginhill said:

My reading of the of art 5 " withdrawal under the same conditions as stated in art 4",  is that I have to leave the entire sum I submitted for the extension approval ie 300,000 for 3 months and 50% can be withdrawn after the 3 months.

I know logic doesn't live in our musings, but it seems logical  based on all the available options. 

 

 

 

That is my best guess too but as you can see in this thread there are other opinions and the simple truth is no one knows for sure.

 

Visa Forum Mod UbonJoe -- who has vast experience with visa matters and directives - has said he is unsure.

 

When several different TV members - and the resident Visa expert - are either unsure or disagree, you can be sure IOs will be all over the map in their understandings.

 

Best to ask your own Imm office. And let us know what they say.

[bigginhill]

2 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

That is my best guess too but as you can see in this thread there are other opinions and the simple truth is no one knows for sure.

 

Visa Forum Mod UbonJoe -- who has vast experience with visa matters and directives - has said he is unsure.

 

When several different TV members - and the resident Visa expert - are either unsure or disagree, you can be sure IOs will be all over the map in their understandings.

 

Best to ask your own Imm office. And let us know what they say.

As I said I'll be going there shortly, directly for the extension, and a copy of the leniency letter????,  if needs be maybe they will say I need to put on another 100,000. but it won't have been seasoned. 

I'll keep you informed. 

Is there anway we could write out different situations and submit them to Immigration to have answers on how they would answer in each situation? 

Seems some users have connections for information, but this is word of mouth, would be nice if maybe Thaivisa with our input could submit some examples to know how they would reply.

Mine first!

[jacko45k]

14 hours ago, elviajero said:

It didn’t. The typo in the translation was THB 400,00. Neither 400 or 400,000.

 

Context making the amount obvious aside. The use of a comma after 400 suggests it’s thousands and that an 0 is missing from 400,000. If it were THB 400 a decimal point would be used to write THB 400.00.

Some nationalities have used commas where others use full stops in the past. My point actually is whether the translation should be interpreted exactly as you claim, or is that too an error. Yes as written 400,00 (sic 400,000)  is the minimum in the case of 800k in the bank, OR combi... method. But does that make sense? It appears very harsh to make someone with say 55,000 pcm pension income need to maintain 400,000, when to achieve the 800,000 a deposit of 140,000 should suffice. 

(Unless the aim is indeed to cover those emergency medical bills!)