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BANGKOK 25 March 2019 06:26
shaemus

Grunfos SP bore water pumps

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Just now, Fruit Trader said:

No mention of a 2 inch pump so far only a Grundfoss SPA3A-12 which is 4 inch.

Anyone who lets deep well drillers walk without a capacity test is an idiot up country or not.

As for dropping 3.85 dia pumps (hair splitting) down a 4 inch bore its got to be another LOL sorry.

 

Not sure what you expect these country types to give you in regards to a capacity test. 

 

And 28 meters isnt a "deep well" at all. 

 

And you can place a 4" submersible pump in a 4" ID bore. 

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2 hours ago, Thainesss said:

 

Not sure what you expect these country types to give you in regards to a capacity test. 

 

And 28 meters isnt a "deep well" at all. 

 

And you can place a 4" submersible pump in a 4" ID bore. 

I would expect the drillers to demonstrate some capacity which I believe even those Issan hit and run squads with a simple spade bit welded to lengths of gas pipe can do when pushed.

 

Its a little easier for me to answer these well questions because there is a 150mm capacity percussion rig in the family that spends most time in Chonburi but is currently working in Surin. Four inch pump in a 4 inch casing never.


Here ya go, never leaves without a capacity test and will often price off results. Copper divining rods and chanting not included.

 

rig.jpg.6254c2da48bbc41610ccc999cbfd8b86.jpg

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9 hours ago, Fruit Trader said:

I would expect the drillers to demonstrate some capacity which I believe even those Issan hit and run squads with a simple spade bit welded to lengths of gas pipe can do when pushed.

 

Ive had several wells drilled here in isaan and no, they arent going to provide any kind of "capacity test" and if you push them they will probably just tell you whatever they think you need to hear so they get paid. Most they'll do is use compressed air to prove flow and "cleanliness". What exactly is that outfit telling you in regards to a "capacity test"?

 

9 hours ago, Fruit Trader said:

Four inch pump in a 4 inch casing never.

 

So just to be clear - you are saying that the OP can not put a 4" submersible pump in a 4" PVC well so the entire premise of this thread is moot because it wont work? 

 

Now I cant speak for Grundfos pumps, but I can speak for Franklin and I know from experience that they will fit and are made for a 4" well, and they are 100% available in Thailand and are of top quality. 

 

OP Should note that if he decides to go submersible, he WILL need pressure switches and a bladder tank, especially if he chooses the pump hes asking about. 30m depth is not deep at all and that pump will create alot of pressure almost instantly and needs to have a cut-in/cut-out switch with the bladder tank acting as a buffer. 

 

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31 minutes ago, Thainesss said:

 

Ive had several wells drilled here in isaan and no, they arent going to provide any kind of "capacity test" and if you push them they will probably just tell you whatever they think you need to hear so they get paid. Most they'll do is use compressed air to prove flow and "cleanliness". What exactly is that outfit telling you in regards to a "capacity test"?

 

 

So just to be clear - you are saying that the OP can not put a 4" submersible pump in a 4" PVC well so the entire premise of this thread is moot because it wont work? 

 

Now I cant speak for Grundfos pumps, but I can speak for Franklin and I know from experience that they will fit and are made for a 4" well, and they are 100% available in Thailand and are of top quality. 

 

OP Should note that if he decides to go submersible, he WILL need pressure switches and a bladder tank, especially if he chooses the pump hes asking about. 30m depth is not deep at all and that pump will create alot of pressure almost instantly and needs to have a cut-in/cut-out switch with the bladder tank acting as a buffer. 

 

Compressed air flow test done for long enough duration that it proves the well has capacity to deliver beyond whats settled in the casing. An experience driller will estimate the rate. A cheater will blow the casing stock then wait for it to recover before blowing again.


Now all you need to do is contact Franklin and ask them about pump to casing clearance.
 

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6 minutes ago, Fruit Trader said:

Compressed air flow test done for long enough duration that it proves the well has capacity to deliver beyond whats settled in the casing. An experience driller will estimate the rate. A cheater will blow the casing stock then wait for it to recover before blowing again.

 

So what exactly do your people provide to their customers as a "capacity report"? You keep saying that people should get this but in all the wells that myself, my wife, and my friends here in isaan have gotten over the years - not one has provided any kind of report or grantee that means anything in real life. Compressed air isnt going to provide ANY kind of factual capacity. 


So what do you get provided? 

 

9 minutes ago, Fruit Trader said:

Now all you need to do is contact Franklin and ask them about pump to casing clearance.

 

Why would I need to do that? They are literally made for a 4" well, and even have a line for older wells with encrusted casing causing reduced inside diameter. Its not a matter of contacting them and asking, its a well known fact.

 

Quote

The 3200 Series submersible pumps are designed so that all parts of the pump end, including the cable guard, fall within the diameter of Franklin Electric’s industry leading submersible 4-inch motor. This reduced diameter pump end makes it ideal for installations where the well is considered encrusted or tight in comparison to a standard 4-inch well. 

http://www.franklinwater.com/products/submersible-pumps/residentiallight-commercial/fps/4-6-in-submersible-pumps/3200-series-submersible-pumps/

 

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Thanks for the input Guys.

 

i have just heard back from Iwater in Khon Kaen. the deal that they have on the Grundfos pumps only applies to the sp range which is 4in, so sadly i wont be using Grundfos for the moment as the price quoted for an SQ was 34000 Bht.

 

So i guess its going to be a franklin, I have looked at them in the DIY stores, and to be honest the fact that they have single insulated conductors as a tail just sitting on the out side of the pump puts me off massively. As an Electrician i am more that capable of  joining the cable but i would much rather a factory cable which is double insulated and not have to bother with purchasing of a the correct cable and  water proof joints required. Also i looked at the technical info from Franklin (attached below) and i couldn't see the diameter of the pump casing even though they claim it to be suitable for a 4" pipe. Maybe i missed that part.

 

In relation to the bore tests: 

  • we are currently in drought where i am located and the middle of the dry season so the aquifer should be low
  • without very detailed  knowledge of the strata and the Aquifer system that are present  it is impossible to say what is underground, how long it has been there and if it is replenished etc etc.

@Thainess what would i need a bladder tank for (buffer)?

 

thanks again for the input

 

Shaemus

 

 

 

mf3200_fps_3200_series_brochure-1-.pdf

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18 hours ago, shaemus said:

Thanks for the input Guys.

 

i have just heard back from Iwater in Khon Kaen. the deal that they have on the Grundfos pumps only applies to the sp range which is 4in, so sadly i wont be using Grundfos for the moment as the price quoted for an SQ was 34000 Bht.

 

So i guess its going to be a franklin, I have looked at them in the DIY stores, and to be honest the fact that they have single insulated conductors as a tail just sitting on the out side of the pump puts me off massively. As an Electrician i am more that capable of  joining the cable but i would much rather a factory cable which is double insulated and not have to bother with purchasing of a the correct cable and  water proof joints required. Also i looked at the technical info from Franklin (attached below) and i couldn't see the diameter of the pump casing even though they claim it to be suitable for a 4" pipe. Maybe i missed that part.

 

In relation to the bore tests: 

  • we are currently in drought where i am located and the middle of the dry season so the aquifer should be low
  • without very detailed  knowledge of the strata and the Aquifer system that are present  it is impossible to say what is underground, how long it has been there and if it is replenished etc etc.

@Thainess what would i need a bladder tank for (buffer)?

 

thanks again for the input

 

Shaemus

 

 

 

mf3200_fps_3200_series_brochure-1-.pdf 991.32 kB · 0 downloads

 

You are confusing me (@Thainess) with (@Thainesss), somebody completely different

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21 hours ago, shaemus said:

As an Electrician i am more that capable of  joining the cable but i would much rather a factory cable which is double insulated and not have to bother with purchasing of a the correct cable and  water proof joints required. Also i looked at the technical info from Franklin (attached below) and i couldn't see the diameter of the pump casing even though they claim it to be suitable for a 4" pipe. Maybe i missed that part.

 

I think part of your issue is that you're an electrician lol so it makes you picky and want to choose options that make sense to you (as an electrician) and not the practicality of the project. 

 

I can tell you that I currently have (in the states) a 4" J-Class 15 GPM 1.5 HP pump in a 4" ID steel case well in the states that supplies a 4 bed 4 bath house and waters 2 acres in half acre zones without issue. 4" ID pipe is the same regardless of country. 

 

The standard franklin motor for most of their pumps is 3.75" in diameter and the 3200 class is smaller. (motor is the biggest part of the pump) Page 41 in this PDF:

 

http://www.franklinwater.com/media/110562/M1311_60_Hz_AIM_12-14-WEB.pdf

 

What I recommend you do is put 1000 baht on your phone and call franklin and ask the questions you want so that you are satisfied. This forum really isn't the place for super technical questions as it mostly devolves into uninformed bickering. 

 

Something to note is that the USA Franklin pumps are either 110v or 220v but the 220v is Split Phase 220v (180 degrees out of phase) and require 2 "hots" or "line" and no "neutral". The European versions are single phase 220v with a single "hot" or "line" and a "neutral" (same as Thailand). 

 

Ive been doing calculations on pump sizing recently and your application is very similar to mine in Thailand. At 28 meter bore depth youd need a pump that has about 228 ft of head at either 10 GPM or 15 GPM (Your application id choose 15 GPM) and the 3200 series only offers 7 GPM. It would work but its IMO kind of small. Calculations are on a 30 meter pump depth (worst case) and a max operating pressure of 60 PSI. 

 

22 hours ago, shaemus said:

what would i need a bladder tank for (buffer)?

 

I saw that you wanted to use a VFD for pump control and IMO for your application thats not a good idea considering your low supply voltage and over-complication for Thailand. 

 

Using a pressure switch, check valves, and a bladder tank is a mechanical way of doing the same thing you can do with a VFD without over complicated electronics and its a tried and true method thats extremely common in the states for residential wells and Its cheaper. 

 

This is an animation of cycle stop valves VS Regular bladder tanks. They are trying to sell CSV's but the animations are accurate for bladder tank setups (the lower animation). 

 

https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/home-one-well-system

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9 hours ago, Thainesss said:

This forum really isn't the place for super technical questions as it mostly devolves into uninformed bickering. 

I fully agree. 

9 hours ago, Thainesss said:

I saw that you wanted to use a VFD for pump control and IMO for your application thats not a good idea considering your low supply voltage and over-complication for Thailand. 

Seeing as the Grunfos SQ was quoted at too much i wont be using a VFD on a cheaper pump as it will just blow it to bits in a year or so. 

 

Bizarrely or as fate would have it a local council/Authority ute drove past our farm today a few times, they were surveying the Rd. My wife asked them what it was in Aid of. The next village down from our farm has just put in a bore in the forest and are planning to take the water past our property. ( not currently on town water ) so that was a bit of a surprise as we had been told that the Village head had given us permission to have a line from the local village feed ( different village ) so it looks like we can get town water without having to pay for the install.

 

i will have a look at the video. i get the concept of the storage tank for water coming out from the bore, but in my initial post i mentioned i had a 140000L dam to fill, 

 

Back to the Pump again, i popped into my local tool shop today. Low and behold bore pumps, loads of them, Franklin too. he had a nice 3in pump 1HP which @ 30m  delivers quite a high L/per min as the depth is quite low it was a 12 stage pump. and 7000Bht so i can't go wrong really at that price. if it dies in 2 or 3 years then such is life.

 

As for the refresh rate of the bore. i dont want to suck the shit out of it as i dont want to induce turbidity of any kind and also dont want to have to have the pump running dry at all, so i am going err on the side of caution, i have the dam i can use to pump 24/7 into, further down the line R.O. may come into play so i can just plod away and keep it all nice and slow, but after todays info ( the water pipe being installed past my drive) it leads me to ponder as to reconsider the options or just carry on a much lower budget.

 

thanks very much for your input.

 

Shaemus

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11 hours ago, shaemus said:

i get the concept of the storage tank for water coming out from the bore, but in my initial post i mentioned i had a 140000L dam to fill, 

 

Storage tank and bladder tank are not the same thing. Bladder tank keeps the pump from short cycling and hammering. Keeps it from turning on every time you open a valve. Gives you a 20-30 gallons of pressurized water in reserve. Not to mention keeps you from blowing up your water pipes, burning out your pump. You cant just turn on a high head pump against a closed valve or system, unchecked. This is critical to a sound system. 

 

11 hours ago, shaemus said:

Low and behold bore pumps, loads of them, Franklin too. he had a nice 3in pump 1HP which @ 30m  delivers quite a high L/per min as the depth is quite low it was a 12 stage pump. and 7000Bht so i can't go wrong really at that price. if it dies in 2 or 3 years then such is life.

 

Thing is you are interpreting the pump head wrong. You dont need 30m head, you need around 69 meters head @ your required flow rate. Its critical you get the pumps curve sheet or part number so you can look it up. If you select a pump with a particular flow rate at 30m, it will  be vastly underpowered and disappointing because not only do you need to push water up out of the bore 30 meters (that only gets the water to the surface) but you then need to pressurize the water to about 60 PSI (this vastly increases the need for more total head) This is really important. You are gonna need your flow rate at 69m - 70m of head. Needs to look something like 30 liters per minute at 70m of head for a 3" pump. 

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