retirement investment

[thaiboss]

I am a retired 64 year old farang in thailand   leaving in thailand  since 30 years .so I  know this thai life very well but now i have a headache due a real estate sale i got 227.000.-- euros ..... can you suggest me what to do or how to invest this money in a thai bank . thats in fact my pension money normal pension is only 25.000.-- thai baht per month. thank you 

Edited February 11, 2019 by thaiboss
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[UKresonant]

Some general suggestions for consideration...

 

If its in euros, first consider is it a good time to bring to Thailand with the current exchange rate, and what proportion to convert to THB. use a FCD account depending on you view?

 

Suggest a standalone Fixed Deposit Account with 400K THB (but which can be accessed with loss of interest), reading recent posts.  

 

Don't keep it in one place, or a single bank company!

 

Safe deposit box in the bank with some Gold content keeping the purchase receipts in another safe place (including a photo copy if printed with the disappearing ink)?

 

30 years, wow! Permanent Resident? if so You can look at Mutual funds (incl property funds possibly).  eg. https://www.bangkokbank.com/en/Personal/Tips-and-Insights

 

Oh and update your Thai will appropriately, especially if you have beneficiaries outside Thailand.

 

 

 

Edited February 11, 2019 by johnwf1963

[thaiboss]

i am in bangkok since 30 years but not with all the regular visa or permanent residency now i am on retired visa. the problem is ...media say euro is not secured in long term. yes i need advice how to split this money amount . all in thai baht because i will stay now here in thailand no back europe. open foreign  euro currency account in kasikorn and siam or  krungsri ? how much in thai baht how much in euros ? should i buy $$$. buy thai gold option i know thats ok . the headache how to split  amount ???? no risky investment ....

[UKresonant]

I've only experience with Krungsi FCD, and I like it so far, also if the Euro is on the rise one day, you can use the debit card to draw up to 20kTHB x 5 withdrawals per day.

I suppose you could say GBP is cheap just now, have not tracked the dollar. 

 

I've no idea on what proportion, to put where, I would take a stab at spreading it over 3 banks, with perhaps two different currency FCDs,  + the gold in a safe deposit box, and hope you get the upside of an average return.

 

Since you are in Bangkok, I can say I've always found Bangkok Banks head office at 333 Silom very helpful, Just round the corner from Chong Nonsi BTS, so easy to get to.

[kevin612]

Do not invest in Thailand.

[Brunolem]

Since you won't go back living in Europe, I think it would be safer to convert everything in Thai baht. 

 

There is more to lose on the downside... the euro keeping on sliding... than to win on the upside... the euro going through a miraculous recovery. 

 

Otherwise, a part of the money could be used to buy gold coins, or small bars, as insurance against a rainy day. 

 

Also, it could be wise to increase your limits on your ATM and credit cards, so that in case of emergency, for whatever reason, you could have faster and easier access to your money. 

[Shiver]

I know you say you intend to stay here, and if you bring it all to Thailand you'll have no issues, but if THB for some reason decided to slide against another currency, then capital controls limit how much you can take out of the country per year.

Would you be interested in putting some in a property to rent out (condo perhaps)?  I've never dealt with property here, but see many offers where they offer you a guaranteed monthly return and someone else deals with the details, and looks a lot better than bank interest.  That said, the prices are usually inflated, so I'd be curious if I could get a property manager on a better priced place (In UK I had a handful of houses and this worked great, but my sister in another part of the country had incidentals almost every month, as if they had a tick list they went through for excuses).

A bit of precious metals sounds like a reasonable choice, and can easily be converted to cash at short notice.  I would say crypto, but if you're at the stage where you're prepared to take less returns in order to lower risk then perhaps that's not appropriate in your particular situation.  Maybe buy 1BTC or something as an outside gamble.  I do believe they'll be worth several hundred thousand dollars within 5 years.

Money in the bank struggles to keep pace with inflation, and some financial products are not available to foreigners.

 

As for quick access to cash, I would factor whether I had health insurance or wanted to take my chances.  I always did the latter, but after a couple of broken bones I got insurance for 20K baht per year (available to Europeans, or any country where they have something like the NHS in case they have to Medivac you home, which keeps the premiums way down for the big ticket issues.

 

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, kevin612 said:

Do not invest in Thailand.

Perhaps, for the OP and others, you could share what you mean by investment.

 

Example, do you mean don't start a business, or perhaps don't buy shares on the Thai stock exchange?

 

Or....

[Brunolem]

1 hour ago, Shiver said:

Bitcoin  I do believe they'll be worth several hundred thousand dollars within 5 years.
 

Would you bet your sausage on it? 

[Brunolem]

14 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Perhaps, for the OP and others, you could share what you mean by investment.

 

Example, do you mean don't start a business, or perhaps don't buy shares on the Thai stock exchange?

 

Or....

Or don't get a Thai girlfriend, even if she is on the market, because it is not a safe investment... 

[Thomas J]

21 hours ago, thaiboss said:

I am a retired 64 year old farang in thailand   leaving in thailand  since 30 years .so I  know this thai life very well but now i have a headache due a real estate sale i got 227.000.-- euros ..... can you suggest me what to do or how to invest this money in a thai bank . thats in fact my pension money normal pension is only 25.000.-- thai baht per month. thank you

I am a former head of a Trust Department for a major U.S. bank that handled retirement plans.  There is no way I would invest here in Thailand.  You have the fluctuation of the Baht. lack of any regulatory oversight, and potential instability of the government.  You can open an account such as with Schwab in Singapore and invest in stocks worldwide including the USA.  Right now you can get almost a 7% dividend return on AT&T the worlds largest telephone company and 6% on Royal Dutch.  You have the safety of being invested in U.S. dollars and SIPC insurance on your assets.  

[scorecard]

2 hours ago, Shiver said:

I know you say you intend to stay here, and if you bring it all to Thailand you'll have no issues, but if THB for some reason decided to slide against another currency, then capital controls limit how much you can take out of the country per year.

Would you be interested in putting some in a property to rent out (condo perhaps)?  I've never dealt with property here, but see many offers where they offer you a guaranteed monthly return and someone else deals with the details, and looks a lot better than bank interest.  That said, the prices are usually inflated, so I'd be curious if I could get a property manager on a better priced place (In UK I had a handful of houses and this worked great, but my sister in another part of the country had incidentals almost every month, as if they had a tick list they went through for excuses).

A bit of precious metals sounds like a reasonable choice, and can easily be converted to cash at short notice.  I would say crypto, but if you're at the stage where you're prepared to take less returns in order to lower risk then perhaps that's not appropriate in your particular situation.  Maybe buy 1BTC or something as an outside gamble.  I do believe they'll be worth several hundred thousand dollars within 5 years.

Money in the bank struggles to keep pace with inflation, and some financial products are not available to foreigners.

 

As for quick access to cash, I would factor whether I had health insurance or wanted to take my chances.  I always did the latter, but after a couple of broken bones I got insurance for 20K baht per year (available to Europeans, or any country where they have something like the NHS in case they have to Medivac you home, which keeps the premiums way down for the big ticket issues.

 

"Would you be interested in putting some in a property to rent out (condo perhaps)?  I've never dealt with property here, but see many offers where they offer you a guaranteed monthly return and someone else deals with the details, and looks a lot better than bank interest.  "

 

Sure it's an option but this has been offered any times but many cases of the promised returns never materialized.

 

 

[khunPer]

21 hours ago, thaiboss said:

I  know this thai life very well but now i have a headache due a real estate sale i got 227.000.-- euros ..... can you suggest me what to do or how to invest this money in a thai bank .

It's about 8 million baht. Having lived so long time in Thailand and knowing the culture, it makes sense to invest to money in Thailand, if you plan to stay here, to avoid foreign currency fluctuation.

 

You can count on a average of 3 percent annually in dividend or spendable outcome when not taking too big risks, i.e. 30,000 baht per million baht invested, or 240,000 baht a year in your case, which equals 20,000 baht a month.

 

Spreading the investment would make sense. There are for example both so-called Fund Books in the banks. A Fund Book is a mutual fund where you have professionals to take care of your investment, but pay a percentage of the invested capital for that service, typically 1% to 1½% per year. Choose funds that pays a dividend, and that invest i Thai market, to avoid foregn currency fluctuation; i.e. don't invest in overseas mutual funds coverings China, USA and like, if you wish a more steady outcome.

 

Some examples of mutual funds can be found on the banks homepages, I'm using, and familiar, with the following, but most banks might offer this service, so it's not a recommendation for a named bank:

Bangkok Bank Mutual Fund

K-Bank, Kasikorn Asset Management

SCB (Siam Commercial Bank) 

 

You can also place some of your saving in the SET (Stock Exchange of Thailand) stock market, which you can do online through a bank, i.e. using an online platform, which is the cheapest way to invest, but you have to pick the stocks yourself. You can only buy stocks marked NVDR, as these can be held by foreigners (but without voting rights), and they will pay dividend to foreigners.

 

Looking at the usual parameters like P/E (Price/Earning), and dividend policy, and historically paid dividends (not a guarantee for future dividend payments),you can pick some stable stocks that could pay between 3% and up to 5-6% in annual dividends after 10% withholding tax. Dividends will automatically be transferred to you savings account.

 

I'm using SCB-online and is familiar with that Thai platform, which is very easy to register – click on "New Clint, Open New Account" and follow the screen instructions – and fairly simple to use; but there are others, and they are probably equally good.

 

Another possibility is to look into bonds (could be via the bank's Fund Books), or high interest long-term fixed accounts, or a combination, and simply use the savings over time. The calculation is expected life-time combined with interest, or value increase of Fund Books investing in bonds – they don't pay dividend, but are accumulating, and you don't pay tax of the accumulation – so the question is, based on the age of 64, how long a period the savings are going to cover, and what inflation rate you wish to be included?

 

Extremely simple calculation could be 8 million baht over for example 30-years (8,000,000/30 plus some interest), which could pay in the in the range of 300,000 baht a year, or around 25,000 baht a month. But you might wish another order, with periods of higher payouts, and periods you might need less money.

 

Hope this can help you, you're welcome to ask questions about details, if you're interested...????

[Lacessit]

Find a bar where the beer is cold ( without ice ) and the bar girls are all good-looking. Buy a share in it, or buy it outright. Keep the current management in place.

Edited February 12, 2019 by Lacessit

[Letseng]

3 hours ago, Shiver said:

As for quick access to cash, I would factor whether I had health insurance or wanted to take my chances.  I always did the latter, but after a couple of broken bones I got insurance for 20K baht per year (available to Europeans, or any country where they have something like the NHS in case they have to Medivac you home, which keeps the premiums way down for the big ticket issues.

Could you elaborate on this insurance pls?

Never heard of such a scheme.

Sounds too good to be real. And I don't know of any country in Europe where they have NHS like healthcare you can just access when needed and without residence status in the country.

[isaanjohnno]

Simple advice- don't- keep it offshore 

[1FinickyOne]

20 hours ago, Lacessit said:

Find a bar where the beer is cold ( without ice ) and the bar girls are all good-looking. Buy a share in it, or buy it outright. Keep the current management in place.

greater than 90% chance of failure.. 99% if just buying a share... but likely you were just joking

[thaiboss]

On 2/12/2019 at 1:45 PM, khunPer said:

It's about 8 million baht. Having lived so long time in Thailand and knowing the culture, it makes sense to invest to money in Thailand, if you plan to stay here, to avoid foreign currency fluctuation.

 

You can count on a average of 3 percent annually in dividend or spendable outcome when not taking too big risks, i.e. 30,000 baht per million baht invested, or 240,000 baht a year in your case, which equals 20,000 baht a month.

 

Spreading the investment would make sense. There are for example both so-called Fund Books in the banks. A Fund Book is a mutual fund where you have professionals to take care of your investment, but pay a percentage of the invested capital for that service, typically 1% to 1½% per year. Choose funds that pays a dividend, and that invest i Thai market, to avoid foregn currency fluctuation; i.e. don't invest in overseas mutual funds coverings China, USA and like, if you wish a more steady outcome.

 

Some examples of mutual funds can be found on the banks homepages, I'm using, and familiar, with the following, but most banks might offer this service, so it's not a recommendation for a named bank:

Bangkok Bank Mutual Fund

K-Bank, Kasikorn Asset Management

SCB (Siam Commercial Bank) 

 

You can also place some of your saving in the SET (Stock Exchange of Thailand) stock market, which you can do online through a bank, i.e. using an online platform, which is the cheapest way to invest, but you have to pick the stocks yourself. You can only buy stocks marked NVDR, as these can be held by foreigners (but without voting rights), and they will pay dividend to foreigners.

 

Looking at the usual parameters like P/E (Price/Earning), and dividend policy, and historically paid dividends (not a guarantee for future dividend payments),you can pick some stable stocks that could pay between 3% and up to 5-6% in annual dividends after 10% withholding tax. Dividends will automatically be transferred to you savings account.

 

I'm using SCB-online and is familiar with that Thai platform, which is very easy to register – click on "New Clint, Open New Account" and follow the screen instructions – and fairly simple to use; but there are others, and they are probably equally good.

 

Another possibility is to look into bonds (could be via the bank's Fund Books), or high interest long-term fixed accounts, or a combination, and simply use the savings over time. The calculation is expected life-time combined with interest, or value increase of Fund Books investing in bonds – they don't pay dividend, but are accumulating, and you don't pay tax of the accumulation – so the question is, based on the age of 64, how long a period the savings are going to cover, and what inflation rate you wish to be included?

 

Extremely simple calculation could be 8 million baht over for example 30-years (8,000,000/30 plus some interest), which could pay in the in the range of 300,000 baht a year, or around 25,000 baht a month. But you might wish another order, with periods of higher payouts, and periods you might need less money.

 

Hope this can help you, you're welcome to ask questions about details, if you're interested...????

i am 64 year old ... a life long pay out from switzerland about 800.-- swiss francs ( around 25.000 thai baht) per month.... i will buy a house with a garden lets say to avoid a monthly rent , wife do not own any thing by now she wish to own house to avoid rent , budget maxi 2Millions thai baht ( my wife with me since 20 years ) may be buy a car , by now we do not have any car only scooter  one daughter will take care of the car and drive us around on week end just have a car in our family. so thai baht left around 6 millions fixed deposit lets say only for 10 years..... do they realy give 7% up interest or dividend 0% risk...?.

[thaiboss]

11 minutes ago, thaiboss said:

i am 64 year old ... a life long pay out from switzerland about 800.-- swiss francs ( around 25.000 thai baht) per month.... i will buy a house with a garden lets say to avoid a monthly rent , wife do not own any thing by now she wish to own house to avoid rent , budget maxi 2Millions thai baht ( my wife with me since 20 years ) may be buy a car , by now we do not have any car only scooter  one daughter will take care of the car and drive us around on week end just have a car in our family. so thai baht left around 6 millions fixed deposit lets say only for 10 years..... do they realy give 7% up interest or dividend 0% risk...?.

want to add since 30 year in thailand  do not own a house only rent so do i now buy my own home ?

[UKresonant]

No !, not a good investment, as you cannot hold title to the land, You would probably be better holding the money in investments, and paying rental with the income generated..back to back arrangement sort of...

[mikebell]

9 hours ago, thaiboss said:

want to add since 30 year in thailand  do not own a house only rent so do i now buy my own home ?

The whole house buying scam in Thailand is riddled with dodgy dealings.  There's a whole series of sectors involved in parting foreigners from his money.

1) The wife - mine twisted me out of half my house. (We married AFTER I bought the house.)

2) The Audit company to do your company books - mine colluded with my wife in the above-mentioned scam.

3) Lawyers dealing with divorce/property disputes - one company, suggested on this site, took me for 133,000 baht & did FA.

4) Another company took over - another whopping fee + % of any 'gains' made by the settlement.

5) Family court run by Thai judges/mediators designed to screw the farang in favour of the Thai.

I'm a sadder, poorer man after 'owning' a house for 10 years.  My farang children's inheritance has been severely depleted.

I'm renting for the rest of my life.

[khunPer]

12 hours ago, thaiboss said:

i am 64 year old ... a life long pay out from switzerland about 800.-- swiss francs ( around 25.000 thai baht) per month.... i will buy a house with a garden lets say to avoid a monthly rent , wife do not own any thing by now she wish to own house to avoid rent , budget maxi 2Millions thai baht ( my wife with me since 20 years ) may be buy a car , by now we do not have any car only scooter  one daughter will take care of the car and drive us around on week end just have a car in our family. so thai baht left around 6 millions fixed deposit lets say only for 10 years..... do they realy give 7% up interest or dividend 0% risk...?.

 

11 hours ago, thaiboss said:

want to add since 30 year in thailand  do not own a house only rent so do i now buy my own home ?

Buying a house in the affordable price range, which "maxi 2 million baht" is, might not be cheaper than renting, as you will have the ongoing maintenance expenses; especially if you buy a second hand house. Don't consider affordable property in Thailand as investment on shorter terms; it's the land under the house that has value, not the house.

 

On the other hand, there is a wish from your wife to own a house, and that might be beyond simple financial calculations. Also due to the cultural gap, where being a house-owner has to do with "face", might originate from past times "Sakdina"-system. Happiness might be more important than financial calculations, and after 20-years you know best. Furthermore the risk is limited being only 25% of your savings, and you still has an ongoing life-long payout on top.

 

A small car is around 500k baht – don't buy second hand, prices are high, which also mean a new car keep it's price better than in Europe – and annual expenses for first class insurance and tax will be in the level of 20k baht to 25k baht including parts (oil etc.) in annual check-up (service is often free for around five years, when buying a new car); so count 2k baht a month in fixed costs (excluding fuel).

 

So left is around 6 million baht, or rather 5.5 million baht.

 

The lower risk, the lower interest or outcome. Fixed deposit in a bank is the level of 1.5% p.a.; perhaps little higher if on a 3-year fixed-term account, but that need to be well planned, to obtain the benefits.

 

If you calculate a "life-time" of 10 year for 5.5 million baht with a 12-month fixed term deposit interest of 1.5% minus 15% withholding tax, you can withdraw some 580,000 baht a year (the following years each end of term), which will equal around 48k baht a month. You might be able to reclaim the withheld interest-tax that is about 11,000 baht after the first full year (will be less and less the following years). After 10-years you'll only have the life-long Swiss payout of about 25k baht a month.

 

Stock market is as a general rule said to perform at 6% to 7% outcome in average a year, calculated over long time – and that is long time – over a five or ten year period you could both gain 100%, or loose 50%, even without getting into high risk investments.

 

With a bit of safe-counting low-risk SET-investment – but not risk free – looking at mainly dividend payouts, the around 3% a year in average after tax, as mentioned in my earlier post, is a fair judgement. That would make a 5.5 million baht investment pay in the level of 165,000 baht a year, or somewhere from 13k baht to 15k baht a month in life-long dividends (often increasing about inflation rate).

 

It difficult planning. I use to ask myself: What now, if I continue to live and pass the age of 100 years, still being in excellent condition? That's little more than 30-years from now, so I need to consider how I spend my last few savings, because it's not impossible to live that long – my father did, so what if i have inherited the same genes?

????

[thaiboss]

52 minutes ago, khunPer said:

 

Buying a house in the affordable price range, which "maxi 2 million baht" is, might not be cheaper than renting, as you will have the ongoing maintenance expenses; especially if you buy a second hand house. Don't consider affordable property in Thailand as investment on shorter terms; it's the land under the house that has value, not the house.

 

On the other hand, there is a wish from your wife to own a house, and that might be beyond simple financial calculations. Also due to the cultural gap, where being a house-owner has to do with "face", might originate from past times "Sakdina"-system. Happiness might be more important than financial calculations, and after 20-years you know best. Furthermore the risk is limited being only 25% of your savings, and you still has an ongoing life-long payout on top.

 

A small car is around 500k baht – don't buy second hand, prices are high, which also mean a new car keep it's price better than in Europe – and annual expenses for first class insurance and tax will be in the level of 20k baht to 25k baht including parts (oil etc.) in annual check-up (service is often free for around five years, when buying a new car); so count 2k baht a month in fixed costs (excluding fuel).

 

So left is around 6 million baht, or rather 5.5 million baht.

 

The lower risk, the lower interest or outcome. Fixed deposit in a bank is the level of 1.5% p.a.; perhaps little higher if on a 3-year fixed-term account, but that need to be well planned, to obtain the benefits.

 

If you calculate a "life-time" of 10 year for 5.5 million baht with a 12-month fixed term deposit interest of 1.5% minus 15% withholding tax, you can withdraw some 580,000 baht a year (the following years each end of term), which will equal around 48k baht a month. You might be able to reclaim the withheld interest-tax that is about 11,000 baht after the first full year (will be less and less the following years). After 10-years you'll only have the life-long Swiss payout of about 25k baht a month.

 

Stock market is as a general rule said to perform at 6% to 7% outcome in average a year, calculated over long time – and that is long time – over a five or ten year period you could both gain 100%, or loose 50%, even without getting into high risk investments.

 

With a bit of safe-counting low-risk SET-investment – but not risk free – looking at mainly dividend payouts, the around 3% a year in average after tax, as mentioned in my earlier post, is a fair judgement. That would make a 5.5 million baht investment pay in the level of 165,000 baht a year, or somewhere from 13k baht to 15k baht a month in life-long dividends (often increasing about inflation rate).

 

It difficult planning. I use to ask myself: What now, if I continue to live and pass the age of 100 years, still being in excellent condition? That's little more than 30-years from now, so I need to consider how I spend my last few savings, because it's not impossible to live that long – my father did, so what if i have inherited the same genes?

????

as mentionned 30 years in thailand/cambodia /singapore  i have experience with gaining million baht , experience loosing million baht , drinking gin tonic all night go go bars , smoking 2 pack LM red per day   all day going out , smoking 100 thai  girls in a month , you may  understand  that past life , my  thai madame ( we not married )  still with me since 1995 , beergarden sukhumvit  Soi 7 full swing (  now she is 46 i am 64 ) , since 2014 i am very quiet ( stop smoking no alcool any more, eat vegan food only )  , have also  experienced monk life in tempel real bhuda life style i know that also ...... six sense telling me may be   by 75 year old i may join monk hood by now i am taking care thai cow in tempel by taking care i mean give money to look after them not to be slaughtered.. you may know thai cow rescue in thai tempel . somehow maha  laksmi will make that you have always enouth money in pocket ....  by now i rent a house 4500 thai baht in nong chock province near minburi very upcountry, very nice here, lot of rice field ,bambou forest, coconut trees ,  many rivers,  land speculation here very hight.. house rent 4500 thia baht owner want to sell to us one million ( new built house 2016) !  have survey around nong shock once last year not found similar like this house  ,  our problem we never have stay same place more then 4 years since 1995......experienced hua hin,  cha am ,  kho samui,  phuket ,  chiang rai , chiang mai, nakonsawan,  chasoengsaw and now nong chock (  bangkok 60 km ). generaly would say 227.000 euros pay out in May 2019. keep it simple and wait one year before doing any thing . there is warning about Financial crisis for 2020.  may 2019 ( pay out 227K euros )  exchange to thai baht 800.000 for Secure visa retirement..+ one million thai baht deposit  2% interest , siam commercial told me. meaning  let 200.000 euros in my bank for one year here in france border switzerland let it here for one year .. wait and see one year let see what happen with prediction financial crisis happen or not who knows ? no buy house no buy care   just another idee !!!!!!

[AGareth2]

54 minutes ago, thaiboss said:

by now i rent a house 4500 thai baht in nong chock province near minburi very upcountry, very nice here, lot of rice field ,bambou forest, coconut trees ,  many rivers,  land speculation here very hight.. house rent 4500 thia baht owner want to sell to us one million ( new built house 2016)

nice area

sounds like you should buy for a mil