Marriage/Retirement - Interpretations explained.

[onera1961]

39 minutes ago, brokenbone said:

yes, i meant: with an embassy letter confirming my disability pension, do i still need to prove monthly transfer or not ?

i still need to complement pension with a bank deposit to meet 800k , but i wont resort to montly transfers

If your embassy still issues "embassy income letter" (e.g. Canada or New Zealand or Japan or Singapore, etc. ), then you don't need to bring any money.

Edited February 14, 2019 by onera1961

[brokenbone]

19 minutes ago, onera1961 said:

If your embassy still issues "embassy income letter" (e.g. Canada or New Zealand or Japan or Singapore, etc. ), then you don't need to bring any money.

thanks.

can i take legal actions if it turns into a never-ending

demands of 'additional proof' i transfer money ?

i've been there done that and its not going to happen again, since nothing suffice anyway.

and, can i enforce extension of stay based on legal action pending ?

Edited February 14, 2019 by brokenbone

[wobalt]

Possibly you can take legal actions for example in the US against the decision to skip the embassy letter


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[Kenny202]

53 minutes ago, brokenbone said:

thanks.

can i take legal actions if it turns into a never-ending

demands of 'additional proof' i transfer money ?

i've been there done that and its not going to happen again, since nothing suffice anyway.

and, can i enforce extension of stay based on legal action pending ?

Why are you asking the OP or should I say demanding? He was kind enough to do the research and list the new requirements. Go and ask your own IO now and see what they say. Forewarned is forearmed. If it looks like you are going to have trouble head it off now 

[mercman24]

when i done my retirement visa last year it cost me 1900 baht, but this year it is going to cost (in real terms) 401900 baht thankyou stupid immigration looking at visa runs in the future, costing about 30,000 a lot better than 400,000. and it will be my money, not MY MONEY propping up the thai banking system doing bugger all

[brokenbone]

19 minutes ago, Kenny202 said:

Why are you asking the OP or should I say demanding? He was kind enough to do the research and list the new requirements. Go and ask your own IO now and see what they say. Forewarned is forearmed. If it looks like you are going to have trouble head it off now 

i'm not asking OP specifically, i'm hoping anyone know if i can take legal action. and no, you shouldnt say demanding,

hoping is more adequate description

[Sheryl]

4 hours ago, samtam said:

 Of course you can't do the date of application deposit into your savings account, (with a fixed deposit), as currently required for a savings passbook. (As an aside, that action alone - date of application deposit - is a safeguard that the money/account is yours, and not some fabricated account...but I'm now sure that's not the issue of these new regulations; although I don't know what is.)

There is no rule requiring a date of application deposit. If the bank letter is nto from the same day as application they might ask for it bit otherwise not, if yours does this is unusual.

[Sheryl]

1 hour ago, brokenbone said:

thanks.

can i take legal actions if it turns into a never-ending

demands of 'additional proof' i transfer money ?

i've been there done that and its not going to happen again, since nothing suffice anyway.

and, can i enforce extension of stay based on legal action pending ?

Legal action, no.

 

But you can try complaining to higher levels in TI.

 

Or contact BJ....

[Kenny202]

Can I clarify a couple of things I'm not sure are clear in the OP or have been contradicted through these last 30 odd pages...Probably Tanoshi should have the last word on this as there seem to be many contradictions

 

1) Combo method there is no min / max /guidelines on what your lump sum in the bank is?

 

2) You mention seasoning using the combo method. What aspect are we seasoning and for how long? I assume you mean seasoning the lump sum component? Is it 3 months before and after, same as using the 800k deposit method? After this do you need do also have to maintain 400k in the bank all year around or does the combo method negate this?

 

3) Per above If I use the only the income method ie: 65k per month, there is no need for 400k in the bank year round? And in fact nothing to season? 

I can withdraw deposits immediately as living expenses?

 

3) Say for eg: using the combo method I put 100k lump sum in the bank.....

Means I need to make monthly foreign deposits of around 60k per month to equal 800k  

 

In the OP you say combo method you need to maintain a balance of 800k at all times through the year. If I start the combo method now for the first month I will have 100k + 60k. As the year progresses towards the end of 12 months I will have a balance near 800k but its not going to be all year? Also if I am drawing down on the income deposits for living expenses I'm only going to have the lump sum balance of 100k most times. Am I missing something here?

 

Regarding the 800k funds in the bank method....I keep reading over and over again is 2 months for the first application, then 3 months every year after. Same as it has always been.

 

Being a new system / rules....for someone that is currently on a retirement extension now....will our next extension be deemed as a new application as the rules are new....or exisiting retiree extensions will still required 3 months seasoning? Many of the posts seem to suggest under the new rules all of our first extensions under the new rules require only 2 months seasoning, even if we are currently on retirement extensions. I would find this very hard to believe or that IO will interpret it that way. I think the 2 months only for people never had a retire extension before.

[Pattaya46]

24 minutes ago, mercman24 said:

when i done my retirement visa last year it cost me 1900 baht,

but this year it is going to cost (in real terms) 401900 baht //

The 400/800 in the bank is only one of several methods available to get an extension.

If you don't like this one, just chose another one...

[Kenny202]

14 minutes ago, brokenbone said:

i'm not asking OP specifically, i'm hoping anyone know if i can take legal action. and no, you shouldnt say demanding,

hoping is more adequate description

You really don't want to take legal action for anything in Thailand unless absolutely necessary. Particularly against a govt officer. Understand your frustrated but better deal with things and make your own enquiries at your local offices / banks. 

[Sheryl]

2 hours ago, skatewash said:

Here's my understanding:

 

Minimum Bank Balance = 600,000

Annual Income = 200,000 (800,000 - 600,000)

Minimum Monthly Deposit = 16,666 (200,000/12)

 

The Minimum Bank Balance has to be maintained year round.

 

The Minimum Monthly Deposit can be withdrawn from the account immediately after being deposited each month.

 

In this sense you are maintaining 800,000 for the entire year:

600,000 being held in a bank and

200,000 being promised as your annual income of which 16,666 is actually deposited in your account each month, after which it is immediately available for spending.

There are at least 3 different interpretations of the combo method floating around among TV members alone and lord knows how many among IOs if they are even willing to do it given the confusing nature of the guidance.

 

Under some of those interpretions you would have to keep considerably more than the 200 baht lump sum deposit in the bank at all times.  Doesn't make sense to me (not consistent with "income plus lump sum = 800K) but senior IOs have been quoted as understand that way.

 

There is supposedly clarification in the works. Wait for that. At this point the only thing that is clear is that there is some restriction on spending the lump sum portion.

[Thaidream]

2 minutes ago, Kenny202 said:

You really don't want to take legal action for anything in Thailand unless absolutely necessary. Particularly against a govt officer. Understand your frustrated but better deal with things and make your own enquiries at your local offices / banks. 

Several years ago an American applied for Permanent Residency and was approved.  The final step in the system is that the Interior Minister must sign the final approval. It is automatic-never an issue.   The Minister let it languish without signature for a few years-  the American sued and the Court ordered the Interior Minister to sign.  He refused and the PR went unsigned until a new Interior Minister was put in place. So much for a court order.

[Tanoshi]

4 hours ago, brokenbone said:

so with an income letter, theres no need for monthly deposit ?

Yes, as long as the Embassy income letter confirms you meet the financial requirements for the relevant extension.

[skatewash]

4 minutes ago, Kenny202 said:

Can I clarify a couple of things I'm not sure are clear in the OP or have been contradicted through these last 30 odd pages...Probably Tanoshi should have the last word on this as there seem to be many contradictions

 

1) Combo method there is no min / max /guidelines on what your lump sum in the bank is?

 

2) You mention seasoning using the combo method. What aspect are we seasoning and for how long? I assume you mean seasoning the lump sum component? Is it 3 months before and after, same as using the 800k deposit method? After this do you need do also have to maintain 400k in the bank all year around or does the combo method negate this?

 

3) Per above If I use the only the income method ie: 65k per month, there is no need for 400k in the bank year round? And in fact nothing to season? 

I can withdraw deposits immediately as living expenses?

 

3) Say for eg: using the combo method I put 100k lump sum in the bank.....

Means I need to make monthly foreign deposits of around 60k per month to equal 800k  

 

In the OP you say combo method you need to maintain a balance of 800k at all times through the year. If I start the combo method now for the first month I will have 100k + 60k. As the year progresses towards the end of 12 months I will have a balance near 800k but its not going to be all year? Also if I am drawing down on the income deposits for living expenses I'm only going to have the lump sum balance of 100k most times. Am I missing something here?

 

Regarding the 800k funds in the bank method....I keep reading over and over again is 2 months for the first application, then 3 months every year after. Same as it has always been.

 

Being a new system / rules....for someone that is currently on a retirement extension now....will our next extension be deemed as a new application as the rules are new....or exisiting retiree extensions will still required 3 months seasoning? Many of the posts seem to suggest under the new rules all of our first extensions under the new rules require only 2 months seasoning, even if we are currently on retirement extensions. I would find this very hard to believe or that IO will interpret it that way. I think the 2 months only for people never had a retire extension before.

I'm not Tanoshi, but here're my answers based on my understanding from reading this topic:

 

1)  No, just the simple formula (800,000 - Annual Income).

2) Correct.

3) You got it.  

Minimum Bank Balance = 100,000

Annual Income (800,000 - 100,000) = 700,000

Minimum Monthly Deposit (700,000/12) = 58,333

 

My interpretation of the 800,000 commitment:

2 components: an annual income and a bank balance

The annual income is your lowest monthly deposit amount x 12.

The minimum bank balance is 800,000 - annual income, which needs to be kept in the bank year round.

The annual income component is a commitment to deposit the minimum monthly deposit amount each month for 12 months.  Immediately after deposit that amount is yours to spend freely.

 

Last question: is it 2 or 3 months.  If you are currently on extension of stay (whatever method) you are subject to the 3 months seasoning rule.  The general rule of thumb for things that aren't clear, assume the worst least favorable interpretation.  If you are wrong you will be pleasantly surprised.  If you assume favorable interpretations you can only be disappointed.  ????

[bigginhill]

4 hours ago, samtam said:

I don't know which IMM office you report to, but in the early years of applying for EoS I used bank fixed deposits for my application at Chaengwattana, and it caused no end of problems for the IO, who couldn't seem to understand what a fixed deposit was, despite it being verified and chopped etc by the bank. After that debacle I switched to putting money into my savings passbook, and that seemed to overcome that obstacle. Unfortunately with interest rates so low on savings...(less that 1%), a FD would be desirable if one is keeping THB800k permanently, and at the rate you quote from Krungsri, but I don't want to have unnecessary hassle with IMM, if they're still not familiar with a "fixed deposit". Also, there may be some withholding tax for income over THB20k, although @ 2.15% that wouldn't yet apply. But interest rates worldwide, including THB, are trending upwards, so that is always a possibility. If anyone has had any recent good experiences at Chaengwattana regarding THB fixed deposits, I'd welcome hearing about it. Of course you can't do the date of application deposit into your savings account, (with a fixed deposit), as currently required for a savings passbook. (As an aside, that action alone - date of application deposit - is a safeguard that the money/account is yours, and not some fabricated account...but I'm now sure that's not the issue of these new regulations; although I don't know what is.)

not recent experience but I too at CW was refused the fixed deposit.

Seeing as we now have to keep the sum for a huge part of the year, could the sum be used to issue a secured credit card?

How does that work the deposit is moved to another account, but what you spend doesn't get taken out of that but out of your savings account? Can't see how it would work if it came out of the secured amount. Anyone know?

[Tanoshi]

3 hours ago, DepDavid said:

So if I have 600k in Thai bank I need to deposit 200k over 12 months but not touch it so the following year then I have 800k in the bank at time of extension? That makes no sense.

Read it again!

Quote

It's minimum of 800k per annum between funds and income.
You can immediately spend the monthly incomes, but the question of if, or how much could be withdrawn from the funds within a year depends on the combination of both and only if above the 800K minimum requirement.
I gave examples only of instances where you could or could not draw down on the funds.

 

[Tanoshi]

3 hours ago, rott said:

"Play mother"? Are you deliberately trying to destroy your credibility.?

Actually apologies to Jack Thompson, who I mistakenly quoted.

 

I should have quoted another member, who was suggesting foreign pension letters, foreign bank statements, ATM receipts etc, etc, etc.

Imagine Immigration trying to wade through that lot.

 

[steve73]

Some one recently gave an example of using the combo method by sending $500 (or 15k THB) per week to their Thai bank, with a lump sum to make up the difference.

Since weekly deposits would result in either 4 or 5 payment in any month the "monthly income" figure could be either 60k or 75k.  If Immigration were to use 60k/month, ie. 720k per year, then a seasoned savings of 80k would be required.  But if immigration were to accept all 52 weekly deposits, i.e. 780k, then the seasoned savings would only need to be 20k.

It will be useful to see how each Imm. Office would handle a situation such as this. 

[jacko45k]

27 minutes ago, bigginhill said:

Seeing as we now have to keep the sum for a huge part of the year, could the sum be used to issue a secured credit card?

How does that work the deposit is moved to another account, but what you spend doesn't get taken out of that but out of your savings account?

The money in the FD securing the CC is not accessible while you still have the card, so fails the requirement for retirement Ext. 

[Tanoshi]

4 hours ago, wobalt said:

Nonsense. That will be done at the embassies!


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That was what they were already doing except in the case of the US and Aus.

 

You can still submit your foreign documents as proof of income to your Embassy in order to obtain an income letter …… if your Embassy is still issuing them!

[Thaidream]

26 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

should have quoted another member, who was suggesting foreign pension letters, foreign bank statements, ATM receipts etc, etc, etc.

Imagine Immigration trying to wade through that lot

You shud have replied to me- and I still stand by  my post. Why limit- the income method to a transfer of funds or Embassy Letter. For the 4  countries citizens that leaves  income method only allows transfers. Why?  I have no problem with using a Thai bank- why can't a simply draw the money out of the ATM and then depsoited in my Thai bank account?   There is no  reason for foreign sourcing when the  bank  method has no provision.

 

By the way - I can prove  I get  income 65K per month with 1 letter and then prove it again and where it is  taken out in Thailand at an ATM Another sheet of paper.  Written in English 2 sheets of paper- plus 4 ATM cards from the US.  Too much for the IO?  

 

I don't think so- since they have to look at 12 transfers and then possibly 12 Credit Advice.  How about some reality when discussing  these changes instead of dismissing anyone else's  opinion as nonsense.  

[Tanoshi]

1 hour ago, Kenny202 said:

Can I clarify a couple of things I'm not sure are clear in the OP or have been contradicted through these last 30 odd pages...Probably Tanoshi should have the last word on this as there seem to be many contradictions

I'll try and clarify it another way.

 

At the point of making a combo application, you will need to supply 2 forms of evidence.

1. Funds deposited in a Thai bank.

2. The previous 12 months income deposited in a Thai bank account.

How much was your income deposited each month - 40K.

So 40K x 12 = 480K, meaning you must have 320K in funds.

You can immediately spend the 40K income each month, but if you only had 320K in funds, you can't draw down on it because you would be under the 800K minimum requirement.

 

The greater you can transfer each month, the less the funds have to be, or,

The greater the funds, then the lesser the income requirements.

It's flexible to meet either your income capacity, or your funds capacity.

Provided the two add up to 800K when your applying for the extension.

 

You can supply an Embassy letter as an alternative for the proof of income.

[jacko45k]

2 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

You can immediately spend the 40K income each month, but if you only had 320K in funds, you can't draw down on it because you would be under the 800K minimum requirement.

So the fund has to remain untouched for 3 months, then it can be drawn on to a minimum of zero, (400k is covered by monthly income), then after 6 months you need to get it back where it was, 320k?

[Tanoshi]

13 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

You shud have replied to me- and I still stand by  my post. Why limit- the income method to a transfer of funds or Embassy Letter. For the 4  countries citizens that leaves  income method only allows transfers. Why?  I have no problem with using a Thai bank- why can't a simply draw the money out of the ATM and then depsoited in my Thai bank account?   There is no  reason for foreign sourcing when the  bank  method has no provision.

 

By the way - I can prove  I get  income 65K per month with 1 letter and then prove it again and where it is  taken out in Thailand at an ATM Another sheet of paper.  Written in English 2 sheets of paper- plus 4 ATM cards from the US.  Too much for the IO?  

 

I don't think so- since they have to look at 12 transfers and then possibly 12 Credit Advice.  How about some reality when discussing  these changes instead of dismissing anyone else's  opinion as nonsense.  

Unfortunately, it's their Country, their rules, you may not like them, but if you want to stay here you have to comply with them. Have you approached your Immigration office with your suggestions?

 

[Tanoshi]

4 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

So the fund has to remain untouched for 3 months, then it can be drawn on to a minimum of zero, (400k is covered by monthly income), then after 6 months you need to get it back where it was, 320k?

Their is no seasoning period for the combo.

It's an annual combination of funds and income totalling 800K.

The income can be immediately spent, but how much you could withdraw on the funds, depends on your monthly income and how much you have in funds.

 

If you have an income of 40K per month, then you need 320K in funds.

The 320K would then have to remain in the bank for the full 12 months, or you'll have fallen below the 800K.

 

If you have an income of 40K per month, but had 600K in funds, then you could withdraw 280K of the funds.

[samtam]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

There is no rule requiring a date of application deposit. If the bank letter is nto from the same day as application they might ask for it bit otherwise not, if yours does this is unusual.

Yes, you're right. I obtain the bank letter the day before I go to CW, so that may be why they need me to do the same day deposit. Not sure how that would work however, if I obtained the bank letter the day before with a fixed deposit: I couldn't do a transaction to show it was valid on the date of application, although of course the fixed deposit would show a maturity date post application date. However, as I've said, when I've done that before, (the fixed deposit), the IO couldn't fathom it out, so a call had to be made to my account manager, and all of how a fixed deposit works explained. Thereafter it was accepted, but I thought the stress levels these visits engender could do without something that could be avoided by using a passbook savings that they could understand, even if I lose out on (approx 2.15%-1%) THB8k of interest; it's a price worth paying to keep the IO smiling and not snarling, and my blood pressure below a dangerous level!

[Thaidream]

9 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

nfortunately, it's their Country, their rules, you may not like them, but if you want to stay here you have to comply with them. Have you approached your Immigration office with your suggestions?

I quite agree with you and I have attempted to get a dialogue but no one even understands the 'new'  police order- so will have to wait until there is some clarification from Thai Imm Central  and what experiences people have.  Originally, I sent my  suggestions in great detail to the US Embassy when they indicated they were working with Thai Immigration.  The Embassy did make visits to CM: Jomtien and Phuket and actually attempted to explain  the US pension documents  etc but apparently to no avail.

 

I am planning another letter to the Embassy at some point as this situation develops. I want them fully aware of the chaos they have unleashed by  stopping the letters. I doubt it will make any difference but I do believe in accountability for decisions made.

 

i do thank you for at least trying to bring some sanity to a very confusing situation.

[jacko45k]

11 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Their is no seasoning period for the combo.

It's an annual combination of funds and income totalling 800K.

The income can be immediately spent, but how much you could withdraw on the funds, depends on your monthly income and how much you have in funds.

 

If you have an income of 40K per month, then you need 320K in funds.

The 320K would then have to remain in the bank for the full 12 months, or you'll have fallen below the 800K.

 

If you have an income of 40K per month, but had 600K in funds, then you could withdraw 280K of the funds.

We seem to read the new combi method differently.... I don't mind if you are correct as your method seems easier EXCEPT you are requiring the total to always remain above 800k, I thought there was a 6 month at 400 k period and the rest of the year 800k... I know this sounds like the deposit rules, but condition 4) is supposed to apply to both. Thoroughly confused wrt combi now. 800k untouched it is for me! 

Edited February 14, 2019 by jacko45k

[Sheryl]

4 hours ago, jacko45k said:

Well what your Embassy requires is one thing, but there is no need to prove transfers to Thailand to immigration. 

Some IOs are reported to be asking for documentation in excess of official TI rules, though. CM is reported to be have been requiring proof of "pension" income in addition to Embassy letters for some time now.