UK's May seeks more time to find Brexit deal, tells lawmakers: Hold your nerve

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, rixalex said:

Are all of your political persuasions based upon the short term benefits to you personally?

I have yet to hear from any Brexiter how they will benefit personally; short term or long term. The average Brexiter has no idea. At all. Idiot savants at best. I should clarify that I exclude most, but not all, Brexiters here. Many have strongly held, cogent views. But en masse, My opinion stands.

 

We need to change our electoral system in many ways. One is to limit those that are allowed to vote not by age or wealth or breeding but by cognitive ability.

[LucysDad]

3 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I have yet to hear from any Brexit how they will benefit personally; short term or long term. The average Brexiter has no idea. At all. Idiot savants.

 

 

Freedom.................... and smug satisfaction.... does not need to be couched in financial terms.

[tomacht8]

16 minutes ago, nanglong218 said:

We'll pay a fair price but will expect full refund on monies owed to us.  Settling a figure may be difficult when the EU accounts have not been audited for a generation.

and again for the 100th time, the stupid headlines and false propaganda are posted here. If you are unable to find the budget audits of the EU, it does not mean they do not exist.

 

http://ec.europa.eu/budget/index_en.cfm

https://www.eca.europa.eu/en/Pages/Transparency-budget-and-accountability.aspx

 

[Grouse]

43 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

as to running down the clock,

maybe she does,

but to me, it does look like she is doing what she can to get the guys in Brussels

to move an inch or five re the backstop part of her shot down deal.

 

 

Then you have understood remarkably little from what has been posted. May's deal is the best iteration consistent with her own red lines. The referendum did not not specify any red lines. There are many ways a deal can be achieved but not within May's arbitrary constraint frame. The red lines are to maintain CON party unity and not necessarily in the best interests of this country and ALL our people.

[Grouse]

28 minutes ago, nanglong218 said:

We'll pay a fair price but will expect full refund on monies owed to us.  Settling a figure may be difficult when the EU accounts have not been audited for a generation.

Disinformation. Get your facts correct.

[Grouse]

18 minutes ago, LucysDad said:

 

 

Freedom.................... and smug satisfaction.... does not need to be couched in financial terms.

Who said it did?

 

So your personal benefits are

 

1) Freedom

 

2) Smug satisfaction 

 

Please expand....

 

Freedom from slavery

Freedom from punishment without trial

Freedom from taxation without representation

 

What?

 

Smug satisfaction from hiding the teacher's board eraser?

 

Be specific so we can all share your joy

 

You see I look at other EU countries with which I am familiar with envy! Mind you, I don't like most things about Thailand....

[rixalex]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

That’s a question that should be put to the hedge fund managers/owners and handful of businessmen who bank rolled Brexit.

Put it to who you like.

[rixalex]

2 hours ago, stephenterry said:

Yes. Mainly because my life span is short-term.

That's a shame.

[rixalex]

1 hour ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

If the long-term benefits are castles in the sky of cloud cuckoo land, yes. 

You forgot to mention pink unicorns.

[Baerboxer]

4 hours ago, Roadman said:

Totally agree with her and hope she pulls it off. A no deal sucks for not only Britain but also the EU. 

 

Corbyn is an obnoxious throw-back to the dinosaur left of the 70's. But he's seen through Treasonous Theresa and her total lack of respect for parliament and the British constitution.

 

She is playing for time - she won't rescind Article 50; she won't got back to the people; she knows she won't get any real meaningful change from the EU; she's too stubborn and egotistical to ask the EU to extend the deadline. She wants her crap deal, that no one in the UK likes apart from a few patronizing Tories, to be forced onto everyone so she can claim it as "her deal" that delivered Brexit.

 

She is deliberately running the clock down and refusing all alternatives but to accept her crap deal or leave with no deal. 

 

A wicked, self centered woman who was at best a poor Home Secretary after her bit of fame (or will it be infamy?),

 

And when the country is plunged in chaos, into an economic wilderness for years, with a plunging currency, decimated industry and large chunks wiped off house prices, what beckons for Mrs. May - the House of Lords, the Speakers' Circuit, a nice protected inflation proof pension? 

 

And you agree totally with her!

 

 

[rixalex]

1 hour ago, j8k said:

Hoping it's a delayed Brexit. This will mean it will never happen. 70% of the UK don't want it anyway. 

Speaking of pink unicorns, did one just whisper that stat in your ear?

[Loiner]

You forgot to mention pink unicorns.

Something strange about that one. Either spaced out everyday of the week now, or permanently wired to the moon.


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Laughing Gravy]

1 hour ago, j8k said:

Hoping it's a delayed Brexit. This will mean it will never happen. 70% of the UK don't want it anyway. 

Absolute nonsense. Please show the evidence and not from a poll conducted by YouGov with 1450 respondents taken at some tree hugging event.

[Baerboxer]

43 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

In much the same way as EU bureaucrats answer to the European parliament, whose elected European MPs must face the electorate...

 

It's amazing how many Brexiteers I know say one of the main reasons they want out the EU is because "it's run by non elected grandees and bureaucrats.

 

Ask them to explain the role of the council of leaders, the EU parliament, the MEP's and they just look vacant. Ask them if they always voted in elections for MEP's and they usually say no because it's a waste of time!

 

You can see how these people were easily led by the likes of Boris, Gove and Farage.

 

My eldest daughter, a BA and MA, actually believes that the money "saved" by not contributing to the EU will far outweigh any negative impacts and be used to create a better UK for all! She thinks the stricter immigration rules, will mean more jobs and employment will be massively reduced! And like many young people, she thinks Corbyns pie in the sky "alternative" socialist society would really create utopia because she's too young to remember the <deleted> Labor governments that spawned Thatcherism. Ask her how the EU is governed and you'll get the usual Brexit response - the bureaucrats in Belgium!

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

3 hours ago, rixalex said:

Are all of your political persuasions based upon the short term benefits to you personally?

 

2 hours ago, stephenterry said:

Yes. Mainly because my life span is short-term.

Well at least that's honest!

 

If only everyone could be as honest.

[samran]

3 hours ago, stephenterry said:

Perhaps you could explain how it would personally benefit you and your fellow UK citizens like myself, because I am struggling to think of anything that would personally benefit me - quite the contrary, in fact.

Well you know. Blue passports and non EU sanctioned bendy bananas. Isn’t that enough?

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

I have yet to hear from any Brexiter how they will benefit personally; short term or long term. The average Brexiter has no idea. At all. Idiot savants at best. I should clarify that I exclude most, but not all, Brexiters here. Many have strongly held, cogent views. But en masse, My opinion stands.

 

We need to change our electoral system in many ways. One is to limit those that are allowed to vote not by age or wealth or breeding but by cognitive ability.

Personally, I'd prefer intelligence - based on IQ ????, but it wouldn't work.

 

Taxation without representation is a 'recipe' doomed to fail.

[samran]

3 hours ago, bartender100 said:

Have you not looked at whats going on in France, Italy, Holland and to a certain extent Germany? People in the street are sick of un-elected  bureaucrats running their countries, making new laws to suit them self's.

Might not benefit me at all, but I would sooner have a few years of hardship maybe, to be free of them. In the long run people of the UK will be far better off under world trade rules, countries all over the world are itching to deals with us

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1085392/brexit-news-latest-no-deal-brexit-italy-trade-deal-bilateral-deal

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/11/uk-signs-brexit-trade-continuity-deal-with-switzerland

 

 

The world is not rushing.

 

They are waiting for you to drop that brexit hand grenade on your own foot, for it to blow your food right off and for your to bleed a lot, and then come along lot later with the trade deal equivalent of a band-aid. 

1 hour ago, nanglong218 said:

We'll pay a fair price but will expect full refund on monies owed to us.  Settling a figure may be difficult when the EU accounts have not been audited for a generation.

It’s a shame that after all the progress human kind has made over the centuries, the definition of public debate remains for many spouting drivel that they have cut and paste from online Facebook memes. 

[dick dasterdly]

48 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Corbyn is an obnoxious throw-back to the dinosaur left of the 70's. But he's seen through Treasonous Theresa and her total lack of respect for parliament and the British constitution.

 

She is playing for time - she won't rescind Article 50; she won't got back to the people; she knows she won't get any real meaningful change from the EU; she's too stubborn and egotistical to ask the EU to extend the deadline. She wants her crap deal, that no one in the UK likes apart from a few patronizing Tories, to be forced onto everyone so she can claim it as "her deal" that delivered Brexit.

 

She is deliberately running the clock down and refusing all alternatives but to accept her crap deal or leave with no deal. 

 

A wicked, self centered woman who was at best a poor Home Secretary after her bit of fame (or will it be infamy?),

 

And when the country is plunged in chaos, into an economic wilderness for years, with a plunging currency, decimated industry and large chunks wiped off house prices, what beckons for Mrs. May - the House of Lords, the Speakers' Circuit, a nice protected inflation proof pension? 

 

And you agree totally with her!

 

 

"what beckons for Mrs. May - the House of Lords, the Speakers' Circuit, a nice protected inflation proof pension? 

And you agree totally with her!"

 

Agree entirely with this part of your post, but I suspect various board memberships and consultancy roles are also on the list, for doing her best to ensure BRINO.

[Grouse]

6 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

"what beckons for Mrs. May - the House of Lords, the Speakers' Circuit, a nice protected inflation proof pension? 

And you agree totally with her!"

 

Agree entirely with this part of your post, but I suspect various board memberships and consultancy roles are also on the list, for doing her best to ensure BRINO.

How is her deal BRINO?

 

Explain.....

 

(This will be good....)

[rixalex]

44 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

It's amazing how many Brexiteers I know say one of the main reasons they want out the EU is because "it's run by non elected grandees and bureaucrats.

 

Ask them to explain the role of the council of leaders, the EU parliament, the MEP's and they just look vacant.

And what happens when you ask your fellow remain friends to explain to the role of the council of leaders, the EU parliament and the MEP's?

[Grouse]

1 minute ago, rixalex said:

And what happens when you ask your fellow remain friends to explain to the role of the council of leaders, the EU parliament and the MEP's?

We all understand. I didn't three years ago but I sure as hell know now. 

 

It is lack of knowledge that differentiates Remainers from Brexiters 

[Kwasaki]

7 hours ago, webfact said:

May insists she can get legally binding changes to replace the most contentious parts of the backstop.

Will the EU mafia except it though.

[rixalex]

3 minutes ago, Grouse said:

We all understand. I didn't three years ago but I sure as hell know now. 

 

It is lack of knowledge that differentiates Remainers from Brexiters 

"We all understand."

 

Wow. Speaking for every remainer. Did you ask them all individually, or was this another factiod whispered in your ear by the pink unicorn?

[Grouse]

6 minutes ago, rixalex said:

"We all understand."

 

Wow. Speaking for every remainer. Did you ask them all individually, or was this another factiod whispered in your ear by the pink unicorn?

It's a postulation backed by convincing empirical data.

 

[remainers are more knowledgeable than leavers]

 

What is s factiod? I know some stats but I have never come across that.

[rixalex]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

It's a postulation backed by convincing empirical data.

 

[remainers are more knowledgeable than leavers]

 

What is s factiod? I know some stats but I have never come across that.

"It's a postulation backed by convincing empirical data."

 

OK, so you made it up.

 

How about, "factoid". Have you come across that?

[Grouse]

1 minute ago, rixalex said:

"It's a postulation backed by convincing empirical data."

 

OK, so you made it up.

 

How about, "factoid". Have you come across that?

I looked it up. American slang for small trivial fact since the 70s? Still not much wiser? What do you mean?

 

If you don't agree with my postulation, post some data that backs your position. (No Minford nonsense)

[Loiner]

24 minutes ago, Grouse said:

How is her deal BRINO?

 

Explain.....

 

(This will be good....)

You've previously shown that you don't listen to anything you're told if it does not fit with your agenda. This is quite long, but 'The Spectator' gives a detailed analysis of her alleged 'deal' and how it was only Brexit In Name Only. Hope its good enough for you:

 

In theory, Britain is leaving the EU on 29 March 2019. But the legal small print, published by Brussels, shows what this means. Parliament will be asked to ratify a deal which clearly admits that ‘all references to ‘Member States’ and competent authorities of Member States…shall be read as including the United Kingdom.’ (Article 7). So the UK will be bound by EU laws, at least during a transition period. But this ‘transition period’ can be be made to last forever (Article 132).  And even if a successor deal is agreed, the UK will have signed away other rights for years to come.

 

In summary: The supposed ‘transition period’ could last indefinitely or, more specifically, to an undefined date sometime this century (“up to 31 December 20XX”, Art. 132). So while this Agreement covers what the government is calling Brexit, what we in fact get is: ‘transition’ + extension indefinitely (by however many years we are willing to pay for) + all of those extra years from the ‘plus 8 years’ articles.

Should it end within two years, as May hopes, the UK will still be signed up to clauses keeping us under certain rules (like VAT and ECJ supervision) for a further eight years. Some clauses have, quite literally, a “lifetime” duration (Art.39). If the UK defaults on transition, we go in to the backstop with the Customs Union and, realistically, the single market. We can only leave the transition positively with a deal. But we sign away the money. So the EU has no need to give us a deal, and certainly no incentive to make the one they offered ‘better’ than the backstop. The European Court of Justice remains sovereign, as repeatedly stipulated. Perhaps most damagingly of all, we agree to sign away the rights we would have, under international law, to unilaterally walk away. Again, what follows relates (in most part) for the “transition” period. But the language is consistent with the E.U. imagining that this will be the final deal.

The top 40 horrors:

1.     From the offset, we should note that this is an EU text, not a UK or international text. This has one source. The Brexit agreement is written in Brussels.

2.     May says her deal means the UK leaves the EU next March. The Withdrawal Agreement makes a mockery of this. “All references to Member States and competent authorities of Member States…shall be read as including the United Kingdom.” (Art 6). Not quite what most people understand by Brexit. It goes on to spell out that the UK will be in the EU but without any MEPs, a commissioner or ECJ judges. We are effectively a Member State, but we are excused – or, more accurately, excluded – from attending summits. (Article 7)

3.     The European Court of Justice is decreed to be our highest court, governing the entire Agreement – Art. 4. stipulates that both citizens and resident companies can use it. Art 4.2 orders our courts to recognise this. “If the European Commission considers that the United Kingdom has failed to fulfil an obligation under the Treaties or under Part Four of this Agreement before the end of the transition period, the European Commission may, within 4 years after the end of the transition period, bring the matter before the Court of Justice of the European Union”. (Art. 87)

4.     The jurisdiction of the ECJ will last until eight years after the end of the transition period. (Article 158).

5.     The UK will still be bound by any future changes to EU law in which it will have no say, not to mention having to comply with current law. (Article 6(2))

6.     Any disputes under the Agreement will be decided by EU law only – one of the most dangerous provisions. (Article 168). This cuts the UK off from International Law, something we’d never do with any foreign body. Arbitration will be governed by the existing procedural rules of the EU law – this is not arbitration as we would commonly understand it (i.e. between two independent parties). (Article 174)

7.     “UNDERLINING that this Agreement is founded on an overall balance of benefits, rights and obligations for the Union and the United Kingdom” No, it should be based upon the binding legal obligations upon the EU contained within Article 50. It is wrong to suggest otherwise.

8.     The tampon tax clause: We obey EU laws on VAT, with no chance of losing the tampon tax even if we agree a better deal in December 2020 because we hereby agree to obey other EU VAT rules for **five years** after the transition period. Current EU rules prohibit 0-rated VAT on products (like tampons) that did not have such exemptions before the country joined the EU.

9.     Several problems with the EU’s definitions: “Union law” is too widely defined and “United Kingdom national” is defined by the Lisbon Treaty: we should given away our right to define our citizens. The “goods” and the term “services” we are promised the deal are not defined – or, rather, will be defined however the EU wishes them to be. Thus far, this a non-defined term so far. This agreement fails to define it.

10.            The Mandelson Pension Clause: The UK must promise never to tax former EU officials based here – such as Peter Mandelson or Neil Kinnock – on their E.U. pensions, or tax any current Brussels bureaucrats on their salaries. The EU and its employees are to be immune to our tax laws. (Article 104)

11.            Furthermore, the UK agrees not to prosecute EU employees who are, or who might be deemed in future, criminals (Art.101)

12.            The GDPR clause. The General Data Protection Regulation – the EU’s stupidest law ever? – is to be bound into UK law (Articles 71 to 73). There had been an expectation in some quarters that the UK could get out of it.

13.            The UK establishes a ‘Joint Committee’ with EU representatives to guarantee ‘the implementation and application of this Agreement’. This does not sound like a withdrawal agreement – if it was, why would it need to be subject to continued monitoring? (Article 164). This Joint Committee will have subcommittees with jurisdiction over: (a) citizens’ rights; (b) “other separation provisions”; (c) Ireland/Northern Ireland; (d) Sovereign Base Areas in Cyprus; (e) Gibraltar; and (f) financial provisions. (Article 165)

14.            The Lifetime clause: the agreement will last as long as the country’s youngest baby lives. “the persons covered by this Part shall enjoy the rights provided for in the relevant Titles of this Part for their lifetime”. (Article 39).

15.            The UK is shut out of all EU networks and databases for security – yet no such provision exists to shut the EU out of ours. (Article ????

16.            The UK will tied to EU foreign policy, “bound by the obligations stemming from the international agreements concluded by the Union” but unable to influence such decisions. (Article 124)

17.            All EU citizens must be given permanent right of residence after five years – but what counts as residence? This will be decided by the EU, rather than UK rules. (Articles 15-16)

18.            Britain is granted the power to send a civil servant to Brussels to watch them pass stupid laws which will hurt our economy. (Article 34)

19.            The UK agrees to spend taxpayers’ money telling everyone how wonderful the agreement is. (Article 37)

20.            Art 40 defines Goods. It seems to includes Services and Agriculture. We may come to discover that actually ‘goods’ means everything.

21.            Articles 40-49 practically mandate the UK’s ongoing membership of the Customs Union in all but name.

22.            The UK will be charged to receive the data/information we need in order to comply with EU law. (Article 50)

23.            The EU will continue to set rules for UK intellectual property law (Article 54 to 61)

24.            The UK will effectively be bound by a non-disclosure agreement swearing us to secrecy regarding any EU developments we have paid to be part. This is not mutual. The EU is not bound by such measures. (Article 74)

25.            The UK is bound by EU rules on procurement rules – which effectively forbids us from seeking better deals elsewhere. (Articles 75 to 78)

26.            We give up all rights to any data the EU made with our money (Art. 103)

27.            The EU decide capital projects (too broadly defined) the UK is liable for. (Art. 144)

28.            The UK is bound by EU state aid laws until future agreement – even in the event of an agreement, this must wait four years to be valid. (Article 93)

29.            Similar advantages and immunities are extended to all former MEPs and to former EU official more generally. (Articles 106-116)

30.            The UK is forbidden from revealing anything the EU told us or tells us about the finer points of deal and its operation. (Article 105).

31.            Any powers the UK parliament might have had to mitigate EU law are officially removed. (Article 128)

32.            The UK shall be liable for any “outstanding commitments” after 2022 (Article 142(2) expressly mentions pensions, which gives us an idea as to who probably negotiated this). The amount owed will be calculated by the EU. (Articles 140-142)

33.            The UK will be liable for future EU lending. As anyone familiar with the EU’s financials knows, this is not good. (Article143)

34.            The UK will remain liable for capital projects approved by the European Investment Bank. (Article 150).

35.            The UK will remain a ‘party’ (i.e. cough up money) for the European Development Fund. (Articles 152-154)

36.            And the EU continues to calculate how much money the UK should pay it. So thank goodness Brussels does not have any accountancy issues.

37.            The UK will remain bound (i.e coughing up money) to the European Union Emergency Trust Fund – which deals with irregular migration (i.e. refugees) and displaced persons heading to Europe. (Article 155)

38.            The agreement will be policed by ‘the Authority’ – a new UK-based body with ‘powers equivalent to those of the European Commission’. (Article 159)

39.            The EU admits, in Art. 184, that it is in breach of  Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty which oblige it to “conclude an agreement” of the terms of UK leaving the EU. We must now, it seems, “negotiate expeditiously the agreements governing their future relationship.” And if the EU does not? We settle down to this Agreement.

40.            And, of course, the UK will agree to pay £40bn to receive all of these ‘privileges’. (Article 138)

[dick dasterdly]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

I have yet to hear from any Brexiter how they will benefit personally; short term or long term. The average Brexiter has no idea. At all. Idiot savants at best. I should clarify that I exclude most, but not all, Brexiters here. Many have strongly held, cogent views. But en masse, My opinion stands.

 

We need to change our electoral system in many ways. One is to limit those that are allowed to vote not by age or wealth or breeding but by cognitive ability.

 

44 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

"what beckons for Mrs. May - the House of Lords, the Speakers' Circuit, a nice protected inflation proof pension? 

And you agree totally with her!"

 

Agree entirely with this part of your post, but I suspect various board memberships and consultancy roles are also on the list, for doing her best to ensure BRINO.

 

36 minutes ago, Grouse said:

How is her deal BRINO?

 

Explain.....

 

(This will be good....)

And you think voting should be based on "cognitive ability"????

 

If you don't understand how her 'agreement' is BRINO, then I recommend you change your opinion on those that should be 'allowed' to vote.....

 

 

[Grouse]

5 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

 

And you think voting should be based on "cognitive ability"????

 

If you don't understand how her 'agreement' is BRINO, then I recommend you change your opinion on those that should be 'allowed' to vote.....

 

 

I ask you again, how is her deal BRINO?

 

Stop the obfuscation, stop the bluster and answer!