Warned at DMK on my 4th entry- 2 SETV's and 2nd Visa exempt by air

[keysersoze276]

Just wanted to let you guys know what happened earlier this week...I've seen similar posts but not one for only 4 entries.  I have one SETV from Cambodia (extended), one SETV from Hong Kong (extended), one Visa Exempt Entry by air (arriving in Don Muang airport from Phnom Penh, extended), and had just arrived to get a second Visa Exempt (arriving at Don Muang from Hanoi).  

 

I know that there is no limit on Visa Exempt entries by air, but also understand it is at the Immigration officer's discretion.  I just wanted to report back to you guys because I have seen an increasing number of these posts, especially from Don Muang.  Sometimes followed by comments asking about nationality, tattoos, clothing, etc.  I am early 40's American (white), no visible tattoos, I was totally clean shaven, wearing a long sleeve button down collared designer shirt, long pants and closed shoes.  Polite and friendly the entire time.  So nothing I can imagine to cause any alarm.  One small detail though- A female officer directed me to go to the Chinese Passport lane as there was only one person in queue, which I mentioned to the male officer behind the counter.

 

He looked at my Passport and said "This is very bad.  You come here four times already."  I explained that I tried to get a tourist visa in Vietnam, but was unable to due to the TET festival (Vietnamese New Year- embassy closed all week).  This was true and I had my bank statement showing just under 100k in a Thai bank, and Medical certificates for upcoming hospital appointments including a scheduled surgery in Thailand.  I have some new inquiries on that now, but will stay on topic here.  I was pulled aside to talk to a supervisor.  He was smiling, friendly, and polite to me and my Thai gf who had been with me on the trip to Hanoi.  But he warned me that I probably won't get another tourist visa or be able to make another entry at all.  When I pointed out I have this upcoming surgery, he advised I get the surgery first and then try to get another visa after the surgery (I won't be able to walk for about 3 months...metal plate in my ankle is to be removed...initial surgery was also in Thailand).

 

I keep reading Thailand is promoting itself as a medical hub.  And four entries is too many?  Good guys in, bad guys out?  How am I a bad guy?  Could this just be a case of an immigration officer having a bad day?  Should I be worried?  I think I will avoid DMK even though I live 10 minutes away, about an hour or much more with traffic from Swampy.  Just a head's up and any thoughts or advice are welcome.

 

P.S.  No check was done on any computer (I've seen inquiries and speculation on that) and nothing was written or stamped in my passport.

 

[ubonjoe]

When you go for the surgery you can get a extension up to 90 days for medical treatment. You will need documents from the hospital and doctor stating you cannot travel. Many hospitals have staff who can do the extension for you.

[Christophers200]

Mmm -- I had 2 plates and screws removed from my ankle and was walking with the aid of crutches the day after surgery.

[JackThompson]

22 minutes ago, keysersoze276 said:

And four entries is too many?  Good guys in, bad guys out?  How am I a bad guy? 

You aren't.  That is one of several bad entry points where they pretend there is a legal reason to deny entry to those who have "been here too much before" - even if their prior stays were 100% lawful.

 

22 minutes ago, keysersoze276 said:

Could this just be a case of an immigration officer having a bad day? 

No, it is policy at that entry-point to deny-entry for non-legal reasons.  They usually hide their unlawful-actions by using a rejection-stamp which claims you don't have the money to afford your stay (even if you have plenty, can show a bank-book proving it, etc).

 

22 minutes ago, keysersoze276 said:

Should I be worried? 

Only if you plan to enter by-air or at the Poipet/Aranyaprathet entry point in the future.  All other land-border entry points are reported to follow the published laws/rules.  We don't have bad reports from Chiang Mai - but if denied by air, you are probably put in detention until the next flight back where you just came from.  In the case of Vietnam, with no entry-permission pre-arranged, that could lead to another bounce elsewhere (some report being sent to their passport-country, others to Phnom Penh).

 

22 minutes ago, keysersoze276 said:

I think I will avoid DMK even though I live 10 minutes away, about an hour or much more with traffic from Swampy.  Just a head's up and any thoughts or advice are welcome.

We have many similar reports from Swampy.

 

Using land-borders which follow the actual laws is the only known workaround for entry with valid tourist visas, after you have some history here.  I used to fly to Penang, then train into Thailand, then fly onward from Hat Yai.  Others fly into Vientiane, cross over the bridge, then fly onward from Udon Thanni.

 

In the short run, regarding getting through your surgery / recovery-time, UJ's post explains what is needed. 

[DrJack54]

OP, yes we seem to be reading more reports as per yours. Bit off topic, but if was not able to obtain retirement extensions (ie under 50), I would just love a set of rules...so many days per year....x visa exempt per year...etc, etc. Travelers would know exactly where they stood.

[Neeranam]

Do you live here?

 

 

[JackThompson]

3 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Do you live here?

He is on tourist-entries, so cannot be staying more than 60 or 90 days per entry.

[Christophers200]

13 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

He is on tourist-entries, so cannot be staying more than 60 or 90 days per entry.

He admits to having a Thai bank account which the vast majority of genuine tourist do not have. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

34 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

He is on tourist-entries, so cannot be staying more than 60 or 90 days per entry.

 

The OP didn't specify the time relations between his various entries -- whether they were all back-to-back, or whether he had any extended time away/back in his home country or otherwise outside Thailand.

 

If they were all back to back or in close proximity, I'd imagine the IO was simply presuming the OP was using visa exempt entries and tourist visas to basically live in Thailand -- which obviously isn't the purpose of those kinds of entries.

 

If he had done 4 visa exempt entries in a year, each separated by a month or two or more back in his home country, I'm guessing the odds of a problem with Immigration would have been less.

 

 

[Tomtomtom69]

12 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

The OP didn't specify the time relations between his various entries -- whether they were all back-to-back, or whether he had any extended time away/back in his home country or otherwise outside Thailand. 

 

If they were all back to back or in close proximity, I'd imagine the IO was simply presuming the OP was using visa exempt entries and tourist visas to basically live in Thailand -- which obviously isn't the purpose of those kinds of entries. 

 

If he had done 4 visa exempt entries in a year, each separated by a month or two or more back in his home country, I'm guessing the odds of a problem with Immigration would have been less. 

 

 

Doesn't it also seem to depend on the amount of time spent in Thailand on these entries? For example, an IO would be right to question a traveler, arriving on 4 SETVs and visa waivers in close succession, who used up the FULL length of their permitted entries (as the OP seems to have done, judging by the fact he extended all his stays at immigration) as opposed to someone who stays in Thailand on visa waivers for only 2-4 days each time, but may enter 20 times a year?

 

I know people who do the latter, who have never reported problems re-entering Thailand. One or two questions from time to time (seemingly unrelated to the number of entries they've made) but other than that no worries.

 

I know that Singapore doesn't like foreigners entering their country more than a few times a year on visa exempt, especially if they've stayed more than a certain length of time on each entry and/or they are re-entering the country after a succession of recent entries. All of this occurs even if the traveler has never overstayed or even necessarily used up their entire visa-free entitlement. This being TV we don't often hear about Singapore rejecting travelers, but they do it often, perhaps more so than even Thailand does. I've seen plenty of reports and one time in 2009 even I feared I'd be next when I was asked to go to a different counter for no apparent reason but finally let in without any questions asked. This despite me not having entered Singapore in more than a year. No idea what the reason for me being asked to change counters was but I felt quite nervous about the whole thing.

 

Of course Australia, the USA etc. all become suspicious when travelers arriving on visa exempt or a tourist visa visit "a bit too often". I'm not justifying what Thailand is doing by any means but I can see the rationale here - Thailand is becoming more developed and as such is scrutinizing who is coming more closely than in years/decades past. This is somewhat to be expected. In time, the Philippines, Cambodia, Vietnam etc. will start doing the same. Even Myanmar is getting in on the act and is no longer issuing tourist visas to foreigners applying at certain embassies without producing proof of employment etc. like used to be the case. If you apply online for an e-visa, it remains easy peasy - so this move is meant to steer foreigners away from applying for Myanmar visas through embassies.

[Tomtomtom69]

51 minutes ago, Christophers200 said:

He admits to having a Thai bank account which the vast majority of genuine tourist do not have. 

That means nothing. Not sure why you think "genuine tourists" don't have a Thai bank account or wouldn't want one; some have previously lived/worked in Thailand and therefore have a bank account, others might come regularly and want to have a place to store their funds securely when visiting. There are many good reasons for having a Thai bank account and I have never heard of an immigration officer in Thailand finding this suspicious or it influencing their decision to grant or deny entry. In fact, if anything it should be helpful, because it can be used to show you have enough "pocket money" to support your stay.

 

I think you're using "western logic" here in the sense that I have heard immigration officials in western countries sometimes being suspicious towards travelers who possess bank accounts in their countries (like Australia, the USA, the UK etc.) which to them might indicate they are coming to work illegally as tourists. However, the fact a traveler possesses a local bank account alone has never been a reason to deny entry; ultimately incriminating documents like CVs and phone messages between a traveler and a potential employer were used as proof to make a decision.

Edited February 15, 2019 by Tomtomtom69

[KhaoYai]

Seems fair enough to me - you are in effect, living in Thailand but not using the correct way of doing so. That's exactly what the Thai authorities are trying to prevent.

[keysersoze276]

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

Do you live here?

 

 

Yes. 

 

1 hour ago, Christophers200 said:

He admits to having a Thai bank account which the vast majority of genuine tourist do not have. 

Thanks for answering for me Christopher.  Yes, I live here.  I "admit" I am guilty of having a Thai bank account.  I was previously working here legally with a proper visa and work permit, which is how I opened a bank account.  Just before the above mentioned visas I was on a non-immigrant "O" visa based on medical, not marriage.  My Thai gf and I are planning to get married later this year and apply for a non-immigrant "O" based on marriage.  I would rather get this surgery and other things taken care before I do that.  I am currently not working and at the moment I am a "genuine" tourist for medical wellness.  

 

1 hour ago, Christophers200 said:

Mmm -- I had 2 plates and screws removed from my ankle and was walking with the aid of crutches the day after surgery.

So you didn't walk the next day. You used crutches to move around your hospital room on one leg.  Were you in good enough shape to pack up and go shopping around for a new home?  What about the pain, keeping your leg elevated, and having the incision professionally cleaned every other day? Did you travel the next day?  I would have appreciated some better info on getting these things out.  Thanks anyway.

Edited February 15, 2019 by keysersoze276
Added details

[keysersoze276]

39 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

The OP didn't specify the time relations between his various entries -- whether they were all back-to-back, or whether he had any extended time away/back in his home country or otherwise outside Thailand.

 

If they were all back to back or in close proximity, I'd imagine the IO was simply presuming the OP was using visa exempt entries and tourist visas to basically live in Thailand -- which obviously isn't the purpose of those kinds of entries.

 

If he had done 4 visa exempt entries in a year, each separated by a month or two or more back in his home country, I'm guessing the odds of a problem with Immigration would have been less.

 

 

No extended time away.  From Non-O to the 2 SETV's and VE's stated in the OP

 

[keysersoze276]

12 minutes ago, Tomtomtom69 said:

That means nothing. Not sure why you think "genuine tourists" don't have a Thai bank account or wouldn't want one; some have previously lived/worked in Thailand and therefore have a bank account, others might come regularly and want to have a place to store their funds securely when visiting. There are many good reasons for having a Thai bank account and I have never heard of an immigration officer in Thailand finding this suspicious or it influencing their decision to grant or deny entry. In fact, if anything it should be helpful, because it can be used to show you have enough "pocket money" to support your stay.

 

I think you're using "western logic" here in the sense that I have heard immigration officials in western countries sometimes being suspicious towards travelers who possess bank accounts in their countries (like Australia, the USA, the UK etc.) which to them might indicate they are coming to work illegally as tourists. However, the fact a traveler possesses a local bank account alone has never been a reason to deny entry; ultimately incriminating documents like CVs and phone messages between a traveler and a potential employer were used as proof to make a decision.

Exactly.  I was previously working in Thailand.

[keysersoze276]

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

When you go for the surgery you can get a extension up to 90 days for medical treatment. You will need documents from the hospital and doctor stating you cannot travel. Many hospitals have staff who can do the extension for you.

Thanks, Ubon Joe! I was not aware that hospitals had staff that did that. I will inquire about it when I am there. Curious- do you mean the hospital staff physically goes to the Immigration office to handle the extension and no need for me to even go myself? And since I got you on the line here, do you know any current information on Non-Immigrant "O' based on medical, rather than SETV visa based on medical or METV based on medical?  Like could I get the proper visa before the surgery?  The immigration supervisor mentioned something to my gf something to the effect that I looked "big and strong" (not sickly or crippled I guess) and could be scheduling a surgery just as a way to stay in the Kingdom.  As if I might schedule the surgery and then not have it I guess.  Understandable, I suppose.  However it is not the case.  I am having the surgery, but prefer to know I am legit with no worries during the healing process rather than worrying about coming up with some Plan B finding a new place outside of Thailand bouncing around on one leg and crutches.  Thanks always for sharing your knowledge with us!

[fforest1]

31 minutes ago, Tomtomtom69 said:

Doesn't it also seem to depend on the amount of time spent in Thailand on these entries? For example, an IO would be right to question a traveler, arriving on 4 SETVs and visa waivers in close succession, who used up the FULL length of their permitted entries (as the OP seems to have done, judging by the fact he extended all his stays at immigration) as opposed to someone who stays in Thailand on visa waivers for only 2-4 days each time, but may enter 20 times a year?

 

I know people who do the latter, who have never reported problems re-entering Thailand. One or two questions from time to time (seemingly unrelated to the number of entries they've made) but other than that no worries.

 

I know that Singapore doesn't like foreigners entering their country more than a few times a year on visa exempt, especially if they've stayed more than a certain length of time on each entry and/or they are re-entering the country after a succession of recent entries. All of this occurs even if the traveler has never overstayed or even necessarily used up their entire visa-free entitlement. This being TV we don't often hear about Singapore rejecting travelers, but they do it often, perhaps more so than even Thailand does. I've seen plenty of reports and one time in 2009 even I feared I'd be next when I was asked to go to a different counter for no apparent reason but finally let in without any questions asked. This despite me not having entered Singapore in more than a year. No idea what the reason for me being asked to change counters was but I felt quite nervous about the whole thing.

 

Of course Australia, the USA etc. all become suspicious when travelers arriving on visa exempt or a tourist visa visit "a bit too often". I'm not justifying what Thailand is doing by any means but I can see the rationale here - Thailand is becoming more developed and as such is scrutinizing who is coming more closely than in years/decades past. This is somewhat to be expected. In time, the Philippines, Cambodia, Vietnam etc. will start doing the same. Even Myanmar is getting in on the act and is no longer issuing tourist visas to foreigners applying at certain embassies without producing proof of employment etc. like used to be the case. If you apply online for an e-visa, it remains easy peasy - so this move is meant to steer foreigners away from applying for Myanmar visas through embassies.

 Thailand is becoming more developed and as such is scrutinizing who is coming more closely than in years/decades past.

Wrong.....

There is a visa tightening going on across the board in many countries now...

Why?

You can fill in the blank....

[keysersoze276]

1 hour ago, JackThompson said:

We have many similar reports from Swampy.

 

Using land-borders which follow the actual laws is the only known workaround for entry with valid tourist visas, after you have some history here.  I used to fly to Penang, then train into Thailand, then fly onward from Hat Yai.  Others fly into Vientiane, cross over the bridge, then fly onward from Udon Thanni.

Thank you for that.  Seems like I always read about it happening at DMK and rarely at Swampy, but I will heed your warning.  I don't understand the logic here.  Especially people getting visas and then getting denied at the airport.  I personally prefer to fly to different countries and cities and spend a week or so make a nice trip out of it rather than bussing it across a border and back.  And I do mean coming back with the proper visa.  Promised my gf I'd take her to Japan next.  So we would have to fly from Japan to Vientiane or something and take a bus to Bangkok or a second flight within Thailand to be safe?  I just don't get it.

Edited February 15, 2019 by keysersoze276
Added details

[ubonjoe]

22 minutes ago, keysersoze276 said:

Thanks, Ubon Joe! I was not aware that hospitals had staff that did that. I will inquire about it when I am there. Curious- do you mean the hospital staff physically goes to the Immigration office to handle the extension and no need for me to even go myself? And since I got you on the line here, do you know any current information on Non-Immigrant "O' based on medical, rather than SETV visa based on medical or METV based on medical? 

Hospitals that have foreign patients do have people that can go to immigration to do the extension for you.

Most embassies and consulates only issue single entry tourist visas for medical treatment. A non-o visa for it would be a rarity. I have never heard of a METV visa being issued for medical reasons.

Most people that travel to here medical reason only get tourist visas and then get the extensions for medical care when needed.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

42 minutes ago, keysersoze276 said:

No extended time away.  From Non-O to the 2 SETV's and VE's stated in the OP

 

 

Not judging, just saying, that's probably a good part of the reason why Immigration flagged you.

[elviajero]

2 hours ago, JackThompson said:

3 hours ago, keysersoze276 said:

And four entries is too many?  Good guys in, bad guys out?  How am I a bad guy? 

You aren't.  That is one of several bad entry points where they pretend there is a legal reason to deny entry to those who have "been here too much before" - even if their prior stays were 100% lawful.

I’m not sure that PR slogan was aimed at long term tourism. 

 

“Lawless” to “bad”. Progress!

[elviajero]

3 hours ago, JackThompson said:

3 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Do you live here?

He is on tourist-entries, so cannot be staying more than 60 or 90 days per entry.

You well know that it is the cumulative number of days stayed that determines where you’re living! A few hours/days out of the country every few months doesn’t change that.

 

Thai law considers someone ‘tax resident’ after 180 cumulative days.

 

Immigration aren’t bothered by the number of entries, but the cumulative time spent in the country and the gaps between visits.

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, elviajero said:

Immigration aren’t bothered by the number of entries, but the cumulative time spent in the country and the gaps between visits.

Cumulative-time and gap-length are not a lawful basis for rejecting-entry.

 

1 hour ago, elviajero said:

No rejection stamps claim that. It says you don’t have the appropriate means of living in the country (way of making/sustaining) a living).

Immigration has no reason to believe that a person who stayed longer in the past doesn't have a sustainable income.  On the contrary - the visitor has a track record of having exactly that.  

 

By contrast, a newcomer / shorter-time visitor has not demonstrated being able to support themselves here to the same extent, so immigration takes a bigger chance letting them enter. 

 

1 hour ago, elviajero said:

Unless you get a visa/permit designed to allow you to live in the country, you face the chance of being questioned and possibly denied entry any time you enter as a tourist.

We only have reports of this happening at the bad entry points where the published laws are not followed.  According to reports in recent years, he can do 2x land-border Visa-Exempts per calendar year and no limit on Tourist Visa entries - provided he enters at law-abiding entry-points.

[DrJack54]

OP, bit left field but just a thought. Realize you have medical issue etc, why not do simple marriage NOW. Later do the big village shabang. Obtain non o based on marriage. Easy peasy.

[CharlieH]

Reported post and response removed.

[BuckBee]

His intentions of use of the tourist visa seems more than acceptable and he got funds support it. trouble is DM and Swampy both got bad technique at weeding out the bad from good guys and just do it the easy way much like big joke and latest retirement visa changes .

I been on leisure holidays for 6 months to a year plus quite a few times . Most of the illegally working guys won't be flying as they do it quick and cheap as most close to broke and pretty easy spot visually and by passport routine.

Amazes me how much hassle people getting at these 2 airports but go to changwattana and they happy swap some money for extensions 2 or 3 times no questions or much proof asked (would be good time check funds and bookings but they don't) ...

OP's use seems fair enough, he be better getting another tourist via land if needs it and using medical extension perhaps .

 

 

[keysersoze276]

11 minutes ago, BuckBee said:

His intentions of use of the tourist visa seems more than acceptable and he got funds support it. trouble is DM and Swampy both got bad technique at weeding out the bad from good guys and just do it the easy way much like big joke and latest retirement visa changes .

I been on leisure holidays for 6 months to a year plus quite a few times . Most of the illegally working guys won't be flying as they do it quick and cheap as most close to broke and pretty easy spot visually and by passport routine.

Amazes me how much hassle people getting at these 2 airports but go to changwattana and they happy swap some money for extensions 2 or 3 times no questions or much proof asked (would be good time check funds and bookings but they don't) ...

OP's use seems fair enough, he be better getting another tourist via land if needs it and using medical extension perhaps .

 

 

Thanks, man.  That's exactly what it is. 

[ubonjoe]

4 hours ago, CharlieH said:

Reported post and response removed.

And now a lot more bickering, baiting, off topic posts and etc have been removed.

[NoshowJones]

Heaven help anyone looking for anything positive from a Thai in a uniform having any sort of discretion.

[Tomtomtom69]

19 hours ago, fforest1 said:

 Thailand is becoming more developed and as such is scrutinizing who is coming more closely than in years/decades past.

Wrong.....

There is a visa tightening going on across the board in many countries now...

Why?

You can fill in the blank....

Yes, because Thailand is becoming more developed!!!