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Property/sublease issue(s)/I've been conned!

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22 minutes ago, xylophone said:

As for your second point about marrying your new girlfriend and selling her the property, then that is surely something to broach with your new lawyer because it does seem like a possible outlet, however who is to know if those sublease contracts become null and void if the property is sold – – perhaps there is a clause or two in there which excludes/covers that event?

 

Before you go marrying your girlfriend and selling her the property, you should also broach the subject of repossessing your property by evicting the renters (by whichever means possible without violence) and/or moving in, because that puts the onus on those people you signed the subleases with to be able to come up with some concrete evidence/proof that everything they did was above board and legal, and if it wasn't, there is every possibility that they won't take it any further.

 

I think you also mentioned about waiting for a payment on March 6th, so before you do anything, you should surely wait for that date to arrive because if there is a non-payment, you can decide what action to take, along with your new lawyer.

 

As I have mentioned before and you have said here, I do believe you have to put some trust in your new lawyer and although this area might not be in his field of expertise, as you say, what you are really dealing with is a potentially fraudulent contract, which he should know something about.

 

I hope this helps. 


 

I have these contracts in front of me, there is no mention of any legal mumbo-jumbo in these contracts other than this line: "The contracts are valid for the entire duration of the lease unless a prior written agreement from both involved parties".

 

This line is rather broad but I am unsure whether this could be turned to my advantage or disadvantage.

 

The current Korean renters are here for the next 3 days then someone else is moving in and then someone else and then someone else. I had a crazy idea here to avoid any cases of violence whatsoever so tell me if you think this is worth it.

 

Step 1: Open a new gmail account with an unsuspecting name, mr.jim.bob@gmail.com

Step 2: Open a new PayPal account with a similar name, mr.jim.bob@gmail.com

Step 3: Register on Agoda or Airbnb wherever the property is listed for rent, book my own house for a couple of nights and pay it through PayPal.

Step 4: Send the contractor an e-mail telling him that I am coming from whatever country and am landing in Suvanahbum at 2AM and ask how to get the keys in the middle of the night?

Step 5: The contractor has installed a safety deposit box against the property with a 3 digit code and he puts the keys in in such cases. Come in the middle of the night, open the safety box grab the keys, move in the property and change all the locks immediately, barricade myself in the house with food and supplies for an entire week.

Step 6: He calls the police and the police comes over, he shows his copy of the contracts, I show the police the title deed, the company stamp and all the documents related to the company.

 

Question: What happens next? Who will the police side with? What are the legal ramifications? Can it be deemed as breaking in even though I didn't break in, he technically gave me the keys so there is no forced breaking-in or so to speak and this is MY property.

 

What does the Thai law says and can this even be pulled of at all while remaining on the good side of the law?

 

PS: Should the contractor and/or the police ask how did I get in and how did I get the keys before changing the locks, I should either never answer that question nor remain evasive at best. I need to make sure this scenario is not considered as fraud, as for the paypal account I will just close it ASAP after the scenario has unfolded so they cannot prove I'm the one who rented my own house for a couple of nights.

Edited by tcp7

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Didn't read the full post but was puzzled by the 3 share percentages...2 at 33% and yourself at 33%.  Why did you not have a 34% stake in the company . That is what would make you the director of the company?

  I know at this point it makes no difference ..just curious?

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Didn't read the full post but was puzzled by the 3 share percentages...2 at 33% and yourself at 33%.  Why did you not have a 34% stake in the company . That is what would make you the director of the company?

  I know at this point it makes no difference ..just curious?

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Didn't read the full post but was puzzled by the 3 share percentages...2 at 33% and yourself at 33%.  Why did you not have a 34% stake in the company . That is what would make you the director of the company?

  I know at this point it makes no difference ..just curious?

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5 minutes ago, dotpoom said:

Didn't read the full post but was puzzled by the 3 share percentages...2 at 33% and yourself at 33%.  Why did you not have a 34% stake in the company . That is what would make you the director of the company?

  I know at this point it makes no difference ..just curious?

I didn't think it is relevant anymore at this point as the week afterwards the company's creation I was granted their resignation letters and the new shareholders list in both Thai and English language, both clearly stated that the Boards of Directors for the company has me and only me on it, same for the shareholders list.

 

I therefore own 100% of the shares defacto and I'm the director. So this is my company valued at 2M bahts and the only assets are the land+property estimated at the value of the house 2M bahts (I was explained that under evaluating the declared assets value would also lower the taxes) thus making it my house.

 

At least from what I understand thus far.

Edited by tcp7

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     So, to sum up, you bought a house in company name.  Everything's going ok the first few years--until you pretty much abandoned supervision of the property and it all went to hell.  Signed a multi-year rental contract with Company X to get out of the big mess.  Company X apparently fixed up the place, per the contract, as it now seems to be in a good enough condition to be rented out.   

     Sounds like you are getting some things sorted.  If Company X pays you the 100,000 baht rent it is another sign that they are honoring the terms of the contract.  In your situation, I would only consider legal action if they don't produce the 100,000 baht.  I know you think 100,000 baht is 'paltry' but you did sign the contract agreeing to that amount.  Put the rental money towards keeping a roof over your head.

     If you are intent on breaking the contract, one avenue might be Company X possibly being in violation of any sublease clauses that might be in the contract covering sublease rental contract length of terms--perhaps short-term sublease rentals of less than a month were prohibited in the contract.  

     One reminder, everyone these days is carrying a photocopier in their pocket--your cell phone camera.  Snap a photo copy of anything important you sign in the way of documents--if the paper gets lost you at least have something to refer to.  My partner and I have gotten in the habit of taking photos of contracts, large money wire transfers for renovation work, bills we've paid, and so on.       

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You sub-let your property in 2018 for a total period of 7 years with 2 signed contracts. Now you wish to break those contracts after repairs have been made to the property by another entity at no cost to you? Have I understood correctly?


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

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16 minutes ago, tcp7 said:

I have these contracts in front of me, there is no mention of any legal mumbo-jumbo in these contracts other than this line: "The contracts are valid for the entire duration of the lease unless a prior written agreement from both involved parties".

 

This line is rather broad but I am unsure whether this could be turned to my advantage or disadvantage.

 

The current Korean renters are here for the next 3 days then someone else is moving in and then someone else and then someone else. I had a crazy idea here to avoid any cases of violence whatsoever so tell me if you think this is worth it.

 

Step 1: Open a new gmail account with an unsuspecting name, mr.jim.bob@gmail.com

Step 2: Open a new PayPal account with a similar name, mr.jim.bob@gmail.com

Step 3: Register on Agoda or Airbnb wherever the property is listed for rent, book my own house for a couple of nights and pay it through PayPal.

Step 4: Send the contractor an e-mail telling him that I am coming from whatever country and am landing in Suvanahbum at 2AM and ask how to get the keys in the middle of the night?

Step 5: The contractor has installed a safety deposit box against the property with a 3 digit code and he puts the keys in in such cases. Come in the middle of the night, open the safety box grab the keys, move in the property and change all the locks immediately, barricade myself in the house with food and supplies for an entire week.

Step 6: He calls the police and the police comes over, he shows his copy of the contracts, I show the police the title deed, the company stamp and all the documents related to the company.

 

Question: What happens next? Who will the police side with? What are the legal ramifications? Can it be deemed as breaking in even though I didn't break in, he technically gave me the keys so there is no forced breaking-in or so to speak and this is MY property.

 

What does the Thai law says and can this even be pulled of at all while remaining on the good side of the law?

 

PS: Should the contractor and/or the police ask how did I get in and how did I get the keys before changing the locks, I should either never answer that question nor remain evasive at best. I need to make sure this scenario is not considered as fraud, as for the paypal account I will just close it ASAP after the scenario has unfolded so they cannot prove I'm the one who rented my own house for a couple of nights.

Renting your own place through a dummy account etc and then staying there, is certainly an avenue to be considered, however before one gets carried away, I still believe you should run this by your new lawyer.

 

Thinking about the whole situation, you are really taking action on the belief that you have been conned by some sub-leasing contracts which don't quite seem right, so surely you should get your lawyer to see just how valid these are and whether the law has been broken in the issuing of them, because if no law has been broken and these contracts turn out to be "legal" or as near as dammit in this country, then you could be on a sticky wicket.

 

The contracts and the contents thereof need to be examined and understood by a legal mind to see if you are on solid ground with your claim and actions.

 

Things don't always turn out like they should here in Thailand and your lawyer will know this only too well, however if you feel that his area of expertise lies elsewhere and that he may not be of use to you, you could always get him to recommend somebody else, particularly if he understands that you need to get something done urgently, and especially if he has other big cases to work on.........broaching the subject cautiously and with humility of course.

 

No doubt there are some folks on these forums who have more knowledge of this than others, and you have been seeking some input, but you have to trust in the legal system here, irrespective of how flawed it sometimes seems, because that's the only fallback you have.

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3 minutes ago, newnative said:

     So, to sum up, you bought a house in company name.  Everything's going ok the first few years--until you pretty much abandoned supervision of the property and it all went to hell.  Signed a multi-year rental contract with Company X to get out of the big mess.  Company X apparently fixed up the place, per the contract, as it now seems to be in a good enough condition to be rented out.   

     Sounds like you are getting some things sorted.  If Company X pays you the 100,000 baht rent it is another sign that they are honoring the terms of the contract.  In your situation, I would only consider legal action if they don't produce the 100,000 baht.  I know you think 100,000 baht is 'paltry' but you did sign the contract agreeing to that amount.  Put the rental money towards keeping a roof over your head.

     If you are intent on breaking the contract, one avenue might be Company X possibly being in violation of any sublease clauses that might be in the contract covering sublease rental contract length of terms--perhaps short-term sublease rentals of less than a month were prohibited in the contract.  

     One reminder, everyone these days is carrying a photocopier in their pocket--your cell phone camera.  Snap a photo copy of anything important you sign in the way of documents--if the paper gets lost you at least have something to refer to.  My partner and I have gotten in the habit of taking photos of contracts, large money wire transfers for renovation work, bills we've paid, and so on.       

You pretty much summed it rather well, however and that's one BIG however, when the deal was originally struck:

 

- They told me it was for 7 years, Thai law states subleases are for a maximum period of 3 years. So they knew they were breaking the law making these contracts void to begin with.

- They knew very well well they were committing a "fraud" as they insisted I should sign 2 contracts, 4 years and 3 years instead of a single one for the entire assumed 7 years duration. If they were honest to begin with, why would they require me to sign 2 different contracts instead of just 1? That only proves their malicious intent.

- When I asked them to produce the contracts, they refused to do so, claiming they already had done so upon the signature day, which is a big fat lie.

- They produced 2 contracts in the end which were for respective durations of 3 years and 2 years, thus being 5 years, not 7, something is amiss here, it's not hard to see.

- The produced contracts are scanned printed outs and none of them contain my original signature, these contracts are not the original paper sheets I originally signed back in March 2018.

- The company stamp was never used to legalize said contracts and no witnesses were present either on that day, as it is usually done in Thailand, there's always more or less 2 witnesses for anything you sign.

 

In my eyes and in my book, they broke the law and these contracts are null and void.

 

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4 minutes ago, Sealbash said:

You sub-let your property in 2018 for a total period of 7 years with 2 signed contracts. Now you wish to break those contracts after repairs have been made to the property by another entity at no cost to you? Have I understood correctly?

You are correct excepted the signed contracts are, invalid, null, void and a breach of the law?

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4 minutes ago, xylophone said:

Renting your own place through a dummy account etc and then staying there, is certainly an avenue to be considered, however before one gets carried away, I still believe you should run this by your new lawyer.

 

Thinking about the whole situation, you are really taking action on the belief that you have been conned by some sub-leasing contracts which don't quite seem right, so surely you should get your lawyer to see just how valid these are and whether the law has been broken in the issuing of them, because if no law has been broken and these contracts turn out to be "legal" or as near as dammit in this country, then you could be on a sticky wicket.

 

The contracts and the contents thereof need to be examined and understood by a legal mind to see if you are on solid ground with your claim and actions.

 

Things don't always turn out like they should here in Thailand and your lawyer will know this only too well, however if you feel that his area of expertise lies elsewhere and that he may not be of use to you, you could always get him to recommend somebody else, particularly if he understands that you need to get something done urgently, and especially if he has other big cases to work on.........broaching the subject cautiously and with humility of course.

 

No doubt there are some folks on these forums who have more knowledge of this than others, and you have been seeking some input, but you have to trust in the legal system here, irrespective of how flawed it sometimes seems, because that's the only fallback you have.

Thank you so much for your input, I believe the best recourse of action before doing anything wrong might be involving a third lawyer specialized in such land/property conflict cases, any chances you could recommend one?

 

Thanks in advance.

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9 minutes ago, tcp7 said:

Thank you so much for your input, I believe the best recourse of action before doing anything wrong might be involving a third lawyer specialized in such land/property conflict cases, any chances you could recommend one?

 

Thanks in advance.

I live in Phuket, so I'm sorry, I can't recommend any lawyers in your town/city.

 

I think what you are advocating is the right action, however before I did it I would seek your new lawyer's advice on what I have already said, mainly because he knows you and your girlfriend's family and knows a little about the case, and I'm not sure that if you suddenly dropped him and went elsewhere he would be too happy and may not help you in the future if you needed him. And don't forget "face" is everything here.

 

If he were to recommend you went elsewhere because he didn't want the case/didn't have the knowledge, then all well and good, and he could probably recommend someone, but getting him involved and then dropping him is not something I would recommend, with respect.

 

You have still got the March 6th date on the horizon, at which time you will know if these folks can come up with the money or not, so that may dictate another course of action, but as I've said previously, you really need to know if the contracts are valid or not and drawn up in a legal and binding fashion. 

 

That is key to whatever your next course of action is.

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20 minutes ago, tcp7 said:

You are correct excepted the signed contracts are, invalid, null, void and a breach of the law?

Unregistered contracts for a period of more than 3 years are not considered null and void but are enforceable for 3 years only.

 

(Section 538 of the Thai CCC)

 

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2 minutes ago, ThaidDown said:

Unregistered contracts for a period of more than 3 years are not considered null and void but are enforceable for 3 years only.

 

(Section 538 of the Thai CCC)

 

So that would be the initial reason why they are showing up a 3 years contract and then a 2 years one afterwards? (should we let slide the fact that the contracts are forged and they tried to get away with 7 years).

 

In that case, as the first year has ran it's course, my only venue of action would be IF they don't pay the 100.000 THB agreed for the second year, then I can denounce said contract and expell/throw them out?

 

Am I being correct here?

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no harm in seeking legal advice

but

I would wait to see whether they pay the money

which is due next month

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