Up to 15 British ministers may vote to stop UK from leaving EU on March 29: Bloomberg

[Spidey]

1 minute ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Nobody has called me boy for a long time either. I couldn't care if you were gay or not.

 

My Rockfords are fine also thanks but it seems that you maybe showing some compassion.

Of course I'm trying to show some compassion. being a Brexiteer doesn't make you a bad person, as doesn't being a remainer.

 

Laughing Boy is a term of endearment. It's the title of one of my favourite songs. Hope you like it.

 

 

[Laughing Gravy]

2 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Yes, actually

 

Nobody would accuse you of ignorance.

Doesn't that go against 'that remainers are more educated therefore understand the referendum and the consequences.

 

As I have said before a university degree doesn't matter one iota regardless of what you voted for.

[Grouse]

58 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

The reference is very vivid on these Brexit threads with countless remain arguments calling brexiteers, as those who eat/drink at Wetherspoons (spoonies) and those who go on holiday to Benidorm Benny. Indicating that they are uneducated and somewhat ignorant of life and facts. Totally baseless, as are many arguments from some remainers.

I have never been to Wetherspoons or Benidorm. So I am ignorant about those topics. However I have met people with significant experience of both and I can make inferences and extrapolate. I shall not go out of my way to experience either thank you. I do like black pudding but it must be fried and eaten with potato cakes and bacon....

[Grouse]

45 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Yes, you've explained it very succinctly. You're sat in your chair and are in dire need of a tinfoil hat, or maybe your chalfonts are playing you up.

 

No one has ever called me petal before, I'm quite touched but, sorry to disappoint you, I'm not gay. Maybe that's how you acquired your chalfonts? 

Now that's a well educated guess if ever I heard one!

[melvinmelvin]

just some Monday lunch thoughts:

 

I wonder, if that Tory snap GE hadn't failed totally,

it would not have been necessary for Tory to become DUPed.

Would that have resulted in a more relaxed attitude to the

NI border issues and the possibility of Troubles being waken up?

 

 

It is probably not a wise move to postpone discussion to mid March,

parliament ought to have a go at sorting and prioritizing their wishes this week.

 

Which are the options right now?

+ no-deal exit, the default, looks to me that parliament is fairly allergic to that, not likely to happen

+ may-deal exit, the deal that parliament "violently" voted down earlier

+ apply for A50 extension, Juncker says all will accept that, I am not convinced,

   why should they? extending for what purpose? continuing the non productive talks?

   any real point in that?

+ revoke A50

+ PM has draft text she is still working on, will it be OK and ready by mid March?

   some times water is turned into wine, but to hope for a "miracle" here, that the EU will

   soften their stance and fix the text so that parliament can accept it is probably a bit too much.

   However, weird things happen, even in the 11th hour.

 

In the case that the exit will be with a deal, either the old one or what TM is working on now,

it will lead to years of multilateral talks between EU and UK.

To be sorted; disentangling UK and EU, trade, future relationship, surely satang will come back on the table,

the "final" leaving.

 

Look at the results of the last two + years of multilateral talks,

not much, fairly messy, not many outside D10 are happy.

Been lots of wasted time and effort here.

 

If leaving with a deal, is there any sound reason at all to think that the next rounds of

multilateral talks will be better managed? will result in more acceptable and better quality results?

 

 

[hottrader77]

On 2/21/2019 at 5:46 AM, Samui Bodoh said:

Bloody hell, UK. You need a mini Cabinet revolt merely to stop yourselves from committing suicide?

 

I have made this comment before and will repeat it now...

 

Never before have I seen a country so utterly determined to shoot itself in the crotch.

 

 

 

yes i agree , and not only that experts predicting 5 years after uk leaves EU the pound will drop to 29 baht to the pound as uk will have to do alot more exports to make up for leaving EU and to do more exports the pound has to be as low as possible to compete so for us living overseas or on holiday abroad it will be useless and this situation will last for years and years as we have to keep the pound as low as possible so forget retiring abroad in thailand it will be too expensive at 29 baht to pound , your state pension will be useless THE ONLY WAY TO KEEP THE POUND HIGH AND STRONG IS TO STAY IN THE EU , even though i dont agree with immigration if it means my pound is high and i can live abroad that will do for me !!

[Spidey]

4 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

just some Monday lunch thoughts:

 

I wonder, if that Tory snap GE hadn't failed totally,

it would not have been necessary for Tory to become DUPed.

Would that have resulted in a more relaxed attitude to the

NI border issues and the possibility of Troubles being waken up?

 

 

It is probably not a wise move to postpone discussion to mid March,

parliament ought to have a go at sorting and prioritizing their wishes this week.

 

Which are the options right now?

+ no-deal exit, the default, looks to me that parliament is fairly allergic to that, not likely to happen

+ may-deal exit, the deal that parliament "violently" voted down earlier

+ apply for A50 extension, Juncker says all will accept that, I am not convinced,

   why should they? extending for what purpose? continuing the non productive talks?

   any real point in that?

+ PM has draft text she is still working on, will it be OK and ready by mid March?

   some times water is turned into wine, but to hope for a "miracle" here, that the EU will

   soften their stance and fix the text so that parliament can accept it is probably a bit too much.

   However, weird things happen, even in the 11th hour.

 

In the case that the exit will be with a deal, either the old one or what TM is working on now,

it will lead to years of multilateral talks between EU and UK.

To be sorted; disentangling UK and EU, trade, future relationship, surely satang will come back on the table,

the "final" leaving.

 

Look at the results of the last two + years of multilateral talks,

not much, fairly messy, not many outside D10 are happy.

Been lots of wasted time and effort here.

 

If leaving with a deal, is there any sound reason at all to think that the next rounds of

multilateral talks will be better managed? will result in more acceptable and better quality results?

 

 

You've missed the option of withdrawing Article 50. The sensible thing to do. It could always be re-enacted at a later date after behind the scenes talks, or better still, lets all forget it ever happened. That's what we do with nightmares isn't it?

[Grouse]

9 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Doesn't that go against 'that remainers are more educated therefore understand the referendum and the consequences.

 

As I have said before a university degree doesn't matter one iota regardless of what you voted for.

There are many ways to acquire knowledge. Taking a degree is a good way but not the only way. A good university provides far more than a vocational qualification. I guess one has to experience that to understand.

 

I for one have kept up to date both in my field and generally by reading widely and extensively since leaving university 40 years ago 

 

I think there is no excuse for general ignorance. Fine, opt out of tertiary education; but make a point of learning so that one can make a full contribution to society. Sorry to say that the level of ignorance is growing exponentially even though we have so many sources of information at our finger tips 

 

My first wife's father was raised in a council home and took an apprenticeship with British Steel as an engineer. Went on to take an HND in mechanical engineering at a time of slide rules and log tables. Did very well specialising in gantry cranes. Lived in a beautiful house that he designed and motored around in. Rover 3500. So there's an example of a very bright chap who did not go to university.

[yogi100]

5 hours ago, Spidey said:

 

There was friction between the UK and the EU from day 1. De Gaulle set the tone. France were our primary opponents then and always will be. Maybe it was the CAP which France benefitted from greatly, and received disproportionate subsidies for, due to their fractured and medieval agriculture, France refused to modernise their farming industry and insisted that the EU continued to prop it up. The UK spoke out the loudest against this madness.  

 

Some say that it went deeper than that, back to WW2 when France capitulated to Germany, like a tart with no knickers, and then were totally reliant on the UK to ride to the rescue, causing the overly proud and nationalistic French major loss of face.

 

We let De Gaulle ride into Paris , triumphantly at the head of the troups, even though he'd spent the whole war sat in an office with no windows, deep in the bowels of the MoD. All to help him and France save face. It didn't work. De Gaulle and many French people hated the UK and many still do.

 

Some say that it goes back as far as Agincourt, the French are still enraged whenever we stick 2 fingers up at them.

 

Whatever the reason, France have been at war with us since the day we joined and, if we did remain, would continue to be at war with us until the end of time.

 

Don't blame us for being the petulant member and stirring things up. We are British, these colours don't run (the main reason I am a remainer), if someone picks a fight with us we will oblige. Don't blame us for tensions within the EU, blame the arrogant, aloof, British hating, French.

France in the Great War suffered 1.7 million fatal casualties which was double that of Britain's fatalities while our population were approximately the same size. And much of North Eastern France had been a battlefield with many of its towns and cities flattened.

 

The biggest collection of human bones in the world lies beneath the city of Verdun.

 

They had lost their stomach for more bloodshed and misery and in retrospect who could justifiably blame them. After 1940 the sky had not fallen in just as it hadn't in 1870 and France was more or less left to run itself. 

 

Vichy France was not even occupied till 1944 when the allies landed but by then the shortage of German troops made little difference. The French also opposed the allied landings in North Africa in 1943. The Gendarmerie cooperated with the Nazis and helped round up French Jews and hand them over to the Germans so it must make you wonder where their true sympathies lay. It's the victors who write the history books.

[nauseus]

7 minutes ago, hottrader77 said:

yes i agree , and not only that experts predicting 5 years after uk leaves EU the pound will drop to 29 baht to the pound as uk will have to do alot more exports to make up for leaving EU and to do more exports the pound has to be as low as possible to compete so for us living overseas or on holiday abroad it will be useless and this situation will last for years and years as we have to keep the pound as low as possible so forget retiring abroad in thailand it will be too expensive at 29 baht to pound , your state pension will be useless THE ONLY WAY TO KEEP THE POUND HIGH AND STRONG IS TO STAY IN THE EU , even though i dont agree with immigration if it means my pound is high and i can live abroad that will do for me !!

And sod everyone else!

[melvinmelvin]

4 minutes ago, Spidey said:

You've missed the option of withdrawing Article 50. The sensible thing to do. It could always be re-enacted at a later date after behind the scenes talks, or better still, lets all forget it ever happened. That's what we do with nightmares isn't it?

you are right, forgot that one

 

added  now

 

 

[Grouse]

12 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

just some Monday lunch thoughts:

 

I wonder, if that Tory snap GE hadn't failed totally,

it would not have been necessary for Tory to become DUPed.

Would that have resulted in a more relaxed attitude to the

NI border issues and the possibility of Troubles being waken up?

 

 

It is probably not a wise move to postpone discussion to mid March,

parliament ought to have a go at sorting and prioritizing their wishes this week.

 

Which are the options right now?

+ no-deal exit, the default, looks to me that parliament is fairly allergic to that, not likely to happen

+ may-deal exit, the deal that parliament "violently" voted down earlier

+ apply for A50 extension, Juncker says all will accept that, I am not convinced,

   why should they? extending for what purpose? continuing the non productive talks?

   any real point in that?

+ PM has draft text she is still working on, will it be OK and ready by mid March?

   some times water is turned into wine, but to hope for a "miracle" here, that the EU will

   soften their stance and fix the text so that parliament can accept it is probably a bit too much.

   However, weird things happen, even in the 11th hour.

 

In the case that the exit will be with a deal, either the old one or what TM is working on now,

it will lead to years of multilateral talks between EU and UK.

To be sorted; disentangling UK and EU, trade, future relationship, surely satang will come back on the table,

the "final" leaving.

 

Look at the results of the last two + years of multilateral talks,

not much, fairly messy, not many outside D10 are happy.

Been lots of wasted time and effort here.

 

If leaving with a deal, is there any sound reason at all to think that the next rounds of

multilateral talks will be better managed? will result in more acceptable and better quality results?

 

 

Maybe, just maybe, if May waits to the last minute, has her duff deal voted down, she could say:"right, that's it! I can't get anything through this deadlocked parliament, we're not going to crash out, so you leave me no choice but to go back to the people"!

 

The fact that she is still leaving a couple of weeks before the alarm goes off tends to support this idea. She hasn't been discussing back stops with the EU; she's been arranging an extension for a referendum!

[Spidey]

7 minutes ago, yogi100 said:

The French also opposed the allied landings in North Africa in 1943. The Gendarmerie cooperated with the Nazis and helped round up French Jews and hand them over to the Germans so it must make you wonder where their true sympathies lay. It's the victors who write the history books.

My father was living in morocco at the time. Spent 2 years hiding in his sister's loft. Had some shocking stories of how they treated both locals and expats from other nations. My grandfather (British) was imprisoned by the Vichy French. Treated him like an animal. In '43 my father came out of hiding and joined the British Army.

[nauseus]

6 minutes ago, Spidey said:

You've missed the option of withdrawing Article 50. The sensible thing to do. It could always be re-enacted at a later date after behind the scenes talks, or better still, lets all forget it ever happened. That's what we do with nightmares isn't it?

Withdrawal and triggering again, immediately, is something that would give a new PM with some balls a chance to start again and run the withdrawal negotiations properly. Just withdrawing Article 50, without further clarity, is not sensible, as is likely to inflame the majority of referendum voters, who have so far been rather restrained. 

 

But neither would be easy and are almost impossible now, after so much dithering.

[luckyluke]

2 hours ago, Spidey said:

Brits have no animosity towards the French, other than as a result of their animosity directed at us.

Being Belgian and trying to hurt no one, I will tell you I believe you..

 

Being honest, I would tell the same to a French who claim it is the British who start.

 

And it is not finish yet, with Brexit there are already voices who claim, that everything in the past, present, future, was, is and will be the fault of the E.U..

 

Europeans are not very much concerned now by Brexit, however if they will have personal issues in the future, sure they will blame the British ( whatever they are Leavers or Remainers )

 

It is always more easy to blame the others.

 

[Spidey]

5 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Maybe, just maybe, if May waits to the last minute, has her duff deal voted down, she could say:"right, that's it! I can't get anything through this deadlocked parliament, we're not going to crash out, so you leave me no choice but to go back to the people"!

Or maybe as a closet remainer and not part of the club, she'll say, "Right you bunch of Tory toff barstewards, we're never going to get anywhere with you set of "self pleasurers", this is what I think of your Article 50!" and tears it up in their faces.

[luckyluke]

52 minutes ago, yogi100 said:

We are not happy to be in that and have now elected to hopefully leave it.

Fair enough, however it seems that your government/parliament doesn't consider the voice of a majority as a prime priority. 

[Spidey]

9 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

Being Belgian and trying to hurt no one, I will tell you I believe you..

 

Being honest, I would tell the same to a French who claim it is the British who start.

 

And it is not finish yet, with Brexit there are already voices who claim, that everything in the past, present, future, was, is and will be the fault of the E.U..

 

Europeans are not very much concerned now by Brexit, however if they will have personal issues in the future, sure they will blame the British ( whatever they are Leavers or Remainers )

 

It is always more easy to blame the others.

 

Bring it on! These colours don't run. As the French have discovered many times, to their cost.

 

                                     

[Grouse]

It is thought that maybe 60% of Labour voters, 75% of Labour members and 80% of Labour MPs are anti-Brexit.

 

Clearly Corbyn SHOULD support a people's vote. Shadow Brexit secretary and shadow chancellor are both on board with that. If Labour are seen to enable a Tory Brexit they will be anihilated. They will suffer much greater damage by alienating the anti Brexiters than by alienating pro Brexiters. Corbyn should be locked in his allotment shed for the duration.

[Grouse]

12 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

Being Belgian and trying to hurt no one, I will tell you I believe you..

 

Being honest, I would tell the same to a French who claim it is the British who start.

 

And it is not finish yet, with Brexit there are already voices who claim, that everything in the past, present, future, was, is and will be the fault of the E.U..

 

Europeans are not very much concerned now by Brexit, however if they will have personal issues in the future, sure they will blame the British ( whatever they are Leavers or Remainers )

 

It is always more easy to blame the others.

 

What is Tintin's opinion?

[Spidey]

6 minutes ago, Grouse said:

It is thought that maybe 60% of Labour voters, 75% of Labour members and 80% of Labour MPs are anti-Brexit.

 

Clearly Corbyn SHOULD support a people's vote. Shadow Brexit secretary and shadow chancellor are both on board with that. If Labour are seen to enable a Tory Brexit they will be anihilated. They will suffer much greater damage by alienating the anti Brexiters than by alienating pro Brexiters. Corbyn should be locked in his allotment shed for the duration.

Corbyn should have supported remain from the get go. I will never forgive him for that. We needed someone to fight our corner. He let the working people down badly.

[Grouse]

12 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Or maybe as a closet remainer and not part of the club, she'll say, "Right you bunch of Tory toff barstewards, we're never going to get anywhere with you set of "self pleasurers", this is what I think of your Article 50!" and tears it up in their faces.

I would of course applaud that! However, May is driven by party solidarity; she can't risk dropping the Ming vase.

 

However, going back to the people would not split the party IMO.

[Spidey]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

I would of course applaud that! However, May is driven by party solidarity; she can't risk dropping the Ming vase.

 

However, going back to the people would not split the party IMO.

She'll find out what Tory solidarity is when this is all over. The Tory grandees will drop her like a smelly turd.

[melvinmelvin]

27 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Maybe, just maybe, if May waits to the last minute, has her duff deal voted down, she could say:"right, that's it! I can't get anything through this deadlocked parliament, we're not going to crash out, so you leave me no choice but to go back to the people"!

 

The fact that she is still leaving a couple of weeks before the alarm goes off tends to support this idea. She hasn't been discussing back stops with the EU; she's been arranging an extension for a referendum!

wouldn't surprise me at all if that happened

 

the only bit that would surprise is if parliament for no-deal Brexit

 

 

[yogi100]

18 minutes ago, Spidey said:

My father was living in morocco at the time. Spent 2 years hiding in his sister's loft. Had some shocking stories of how they treated both locals and expats from other nations. My grandfather (British) was imprisoned by the Vichy French. Treated him like an animal. In '43 my father came out of hiding and joined the British Army.

It took decades for the French to get over Oran in 1940 and Caen in 1944.

 

British and American tourists often remark on the aloof attitude of the French. It's possible they resented our interference in European affairs and the fact that we were the first to declare war in 1939 which plunged Europe into another bloodbath just over 20 years after the previous European conflict.

 

They had not yet recovered from the Great War in '39 and many parts of their towns were still rubble.

 

[luckyluke]

11 minutes ago, Grouse said:

What is Tintin's opinion?

[Spidey]

2 minutes ago, yogi100 said:

It took decades for the French to get over Oran in 1940 and Caen in 1944.

 

British and American tourists often remark on the aloof attitude of the French. It's possible they resented our interference in European affairs and the fact that we were the first to declare war in 1939 which plunged Europe into another bloodbath just over 20 years after the previous European conflict.

 

They had not yet recovered from the Great War in '39 and many parts of their towns were still rubble.

 

Yes, I think that it's significant that French disdain is particularly reserved for the British and Americans. The 2 countries that played the biggest part in liberating them.

 

Maybe half the population didn't want liberating. It's said that the majority of French babies born during the war had German blood running in their veins. Possibly why Macron and Merkel are so tight with each other. A brother from another mother. 555

[yogi100]

30 minutes ago, Spidey said:

My father was living in morocco at the time. Spent 2 years hiding in his sister's loft. Had some shocking stories of how they treated both locals and expats from other nations. My grandfather (British) was imprisoned by the Vichy French. Treated him like an animal. In '43 my father came out of hiding and joined the British Army.

 

Do you really want to be in a Union in which one of the leading members is a nation whose people despise us and make us aware of it at each and every opportunity.

 

I've not been to France for 20 years but the hostility towards us English was still barely concealed even then. I'm only one of many who have picked up on said hostility so it's not just a matter of an over active imagination.

[Spidey]

Just now, yogi100 said:

 

Do you really want to be in a Union in which one of the leading members is a nation whose people despise us and make us aware of it at each and every opportunity.

 

I've not been to France for 20 years but the hostility towards us English was still barely concealed even then. I'm only one of many who have picked up on said hostility so it's not just a matter of an over active imagination.

Yes, I've been to France several times. Apart from Paris, the dislike of the British is palpable.

 

AS I've said before, it's better to be inside the tent pissing out, than outside the tent pissing in. Better to stay and fight than run and hide.

 

We're British,

 

                                              

[Laughing Gravy]

47 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Maybe, just maybe, if May waits to the last minute, has her duff deal voted down, she could say:"right, that's it! I can't get anything through this deadlocked parliament, we're not going to crash out, so you leave me no choice but to go back to the people"!

That has been the plan all along IMHO. No tinfoil hat needed just a bit of common sense and knowledge the way the EU don't accept people leaving their club.

 

If it does go to a second referendum then the UK will be more divided than ever and create political unrest. Having not enacted upon the first result then acting on the second, if it were to remain itwould just about finish UK politics.

 

I hope you are wrong but I would not bet on it.