Up to 15 British ministers may vote to stop UK from leaving EU on March 29: Bloomberg

[Basil B]

16 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

Bloody hell, UK. You need a mini Cabinet

Not so much Bloody Hell or even Bloody Mary's but G&T's all round from the drinks cabinet. though there may be a lot of blood on the carpet.

[Basil B]

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

Sorry. Not buying. As if having a good education automatically disqualifies. And on the other side as if having had a relatively mediocre education qualifies eg Corbyn. At least the Hard Brexiteers understand this with their support of Rees-Mogg. The hypocrisy is trying to stick the "elite" tail on the EU donkey. Most of this labelling whether from right or left is just populist nonsense.

Just because their parents could afford to send their sprogs to a expensive school does not mean they are any better than a kid from Brixton Comp.

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, Basil B said:

Just because their parents could afford to send their sprogs to a expensive school does not mean they are any better than a kid from Brixton Comp.

Try not to confuse the difference between "better' and "better-off". And while you are thinking about that, consider all the Labour voting parents who use their financial clout to move into catchment areas for better performing schools.

[AlexRich]

2 hours ago, SheungWan said:

Sorry. Not buying. As if having a good education automatically disqualifies. And on the other side as if having had a relatively mediocre education qualifies eg Corbyn. At least the Hard Brexiteers understand this with their support of Rees-Mogg. The hypocrisy is trying to stick the "elite" tail on the EU donkey. Most of this labelling whether from right or left is just populist nonsense.

Brexit is portrayed as a rebellion by the common man against "elites", yet it is led by those that attended the most "elite" school in the UK. Farage was also privately educated. A bit of propaganda to get the commoner votes ... and they went along with it like Stalin's "useful idiots". 

[SheungWan]

6 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

Brexit is portrayed as a rebellion by the common man against "elites", yet it is led by those that attended the most "elite" school in the UK. Farage was also privately educated. A bit of propaganda to get the commoner votes ... and they went along with it like Stalin's "useful idiots". 

Too much chips on shoulders on display around here against private education. No monopoly on educational background on the Brexiteer side. You might as well beat up the anti-Brexit side with that stick.

[SheungWan]

2 hours ago, Spidey said:

Absolutely. I could never understand why Macron didn't offer the Gillet Jaunes some cake.

Yellow Jackets unholy mix of extreme right and extreme left populism.

[melvinmelvin]

6 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Yellow Jackets unholy mix of extreme right and extreme left populism.

 

yes,

but rioting they know

beat poll tax unhappies hands down

 

[baboon]

16 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Too much chips on shoulders on display around here against private education. No monopoly on educational background on the Brexiteer side. You might as well beat up the anti-Brexit side with that stick.

Too MANY chips on shoulders.

I attended a Comprehensive School...☺

[SheungWan]

2 minutes ago, baboon said:

Too MANY chips on shoulders.

I attended a Comprehensive School...☺

Me Grammar. There you go. ????

[melvinmelvin]

17 minutes ago, baboon said:

Too MANY chips on shoulders.

I attended a Comprehensive School...☺

 

if I remember correctly,

comprehensive school - the school between primary school and grammar school?

 

 

[Basil B]

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

Try not to confuse the difference between "better' and "better-off". And while you are thinking about that, consider all the Labour voting parents who use their financial clout to move into catchment areas for better performing schools.

You are confusing Labour voters with the lower class Tories snobs who can not afford public school fees, many Labour voters are in social housing and can not move that easy... 

[SheungWan]

13 minutes ago, Basil B said:

You are confusing Labour voters with the lower class Tories snobs who can not afford public school fees, many Labour voters are in social housing and can not move that easy... 

No I am definitely not.

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

Too much chips on shoulders on display around here against private education. No monopoly on educational background on the Brexiteer side. You might as well beat up the anti-Brexit side with that stick.

I think you're a touch over-sensitive about this subject? I have no issue with private education, the irony for me is the portrayal of the opposition as elites, by people who are elites themselves. 

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

2 hours ago, Basil B said:

Not so much Bloody Hell or even Bloody Mary's but G&T's all round from the drinks cabinet. though there may be a lot of blood on the carpet.

do not omit Dry Martini . .. . . 

[SheungWan]

1 minute ago, AlexRich said:

I think you're a touch over-sensitive about this subject? I have no issue with private education, the irony for me is the portrayal of the opposition as elites, by people who are elites themselves. 

I'm a sensitive type of guy. As for portrayals, both sides playing that populist game.

[AlexRich]

1 minute ago, SheungWan said:

I'm a sensitive type of guy. As for portrayals, both sides playing that populist game.

 

And how do they do that? All you hear from Brexiteers is "elites", "deep state", "globalists" and other such "tin hat" conspiracy nonsense. Whereas the truth is that most remainers had no issue with the status quo and recognised the benefits of being part of a bigger group of countries.

 

 

[SheungWan]

Just now, AlexRich said:

And how do they do that? All you hear from Brexiteers is "elites", "deep state", "globalists" and other such "tin hat" conspiracy nonsense. Whereas the truth is that most remainers had no issue with the status quo and recognised the benefits of being part of a bigger group of countries.

I and others have read interminable back and forth from some Brexiteers and some Remainers that the other side represent some elitist plot. For the Brexiteers the elites are part of a Euro Conspiracy Theory. On the Remainer side it has come from the guys who want us to line up behind the Labour Party and Jeremy Corbyn against the evil Tories. Not buying either storyline.

[AlexRich]

28 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

I and others have read interminable back and forth from some Brexiteers and some Remainers that the other side represent some elitist plot. For the Brexiteers the elites are part of a Euro Conspiracy Theory. On the Remainer side it has come from the guys who want us to line up behind the Labour Party and Jeremy Corbyn against the evil Tories. Not buying either storyline.

 

Well that's certainly not me ... I loathe everything Corbyn stands for, he's as much a Brexit supporter as Boris Johnson. In fact he's probably more anti-EU than Johnson, who quite frankly jumped on that bus because he thought it would get him the Tory leadership. 

 

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, AlexRich said:

 

Well that's certainly not me ... I loathe everything Corbyn stands for, he's as much a Brexit supporter as Boris Johnson. In fact he's probably more anti-EU than Johnson, who quite frankly jumped on that bus because he thought it would get him the Tory leadership. 

 

attach my comment here, can't make a stand alone comment, TVF ain't my friend today

 

now,

these MPs resigning from Labour

and

these MPs resigning from Tory

does it really matter? as long as we look at the time from now to ?Brexit?

 

In msm, I read that May's position is weakened through this

don't know, but these MPs that have resigned from their parties are

free to vote as they want, being member or not, 

the strength of the whip is limited

'

 

 

[AlexRich]

42 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

attach my comment here, can't make a stand alone comment, TVF ain't my friend today

 

now,

these MPs resigning from Labour

and

these MPs resigning from Tory

does it really matter? as long as we look at the time from now to ?Brexit?

 

In msm, I read that May's position is weakened through this

don't know, but these MPs that have resigned from their parties are

free to vote as they want, being member or not, 

the strength of the whip is limited

'

 

 

 

The problem for May is that more MP's will follow them into the Independent Group if she attempts to pursue a "no deal" Brexit. Together with the DUP coalition I think she only has 6 of a  majority. Any more resigning would trigger an election ... a big gamble for May, and also for the DUP, as the last person they want is Corbyn in charge.

 

On the other side, if Corbyn slips up again he'll see an avalanche of defectors. He had no intention of supporting a second referendum ... but that threat might just force his hand. A big Labour split would split the vote and kill his election chances. 

 

It's a really interesting drama that is coming to a head. 

 

 

 

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

6 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

The problem for May is that more MP's will follow them into the Independent Group if she attempts to pursue a "no deal" Brexit. Together with the DUP coalition I think she only has 6 of a  majority. Any more resigning would trigger an election ... a big gamble for May, and also for the DUP, as the last person they want is Corbyn in charge.

 

On the other side, if Corbyn slips up again he'll see an avalanche of defectors. He had no intention of supporting a second referendum ... but that threat might just force his hand. A big Labour split would split the vote and kill his election chances. 

 

It's a really interesting drama that is coming to a head. 

 

 

 

 

 

I kinda understand that

 

but these MPs, or more correctly, ALL MPs, are free to vote as they fancy,

they don't have to follow the whip if they don't want to

 

that goes for Tory and that goes for Labour, and SNP for that matter

I have difficulties seeing the big problem here re these resignations 

 

[Spidey]

6 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

talking about cake

remember the wife of the head of state during the French revolution?

she wondered why the plebs were rioting - revolting,

she was told that the plebs did not have any bread and were very hungry and hence angry

 

then her comment, no bread? but why do they not eat cake?

 

 

 

 

Yes I do remember it . What do you think my comment was referring to?

 

Marie Antoinette -"Let them eat cake".

 

Are you on something today? Berating me for not being polite, agreeing with "cackling" and now this.

 

Get a grip. 555

 

[Spidey]

I didn't know that there were 15 ministers. I'll bet you can't name them.

[Laughing Gravy]

8 hours ago, Grouse said:

EU immigration has dropped like a stone. Not because of Brexit but because of nastiness by British morons

You did not read my post and links it is these very Africans and sub continents who came with no ID, let in by Merkels EU policy.

 

Brit bashing again.

 

So where is the evidence for the statement above about Brit nastiness and especially being morons.

 

Still waiting for your long awaited EU reply. I guess like your recent responses you only reply with no conviction and just abuse.

 

As I have stated the British morons would be more than happy to see you give in your British passport. This one would be ecstatic.

[SheungWan]

4 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

if I remember correctly,

comprehensive school - the school between primary school and grammar school?

Huh? At end of primary school years, all children in the public education system took an examination referred to as the 11+. The results of that test determined whether an individual was admitted to either a Grammar School or Secondary Modern School. With educational reform in the second half of the 1960s/early 1970s the 11+ was abolished and the binary divide mostly (though not completely) abolished in favour of Comprehensive Schools. Pockets of selection still survive in the UK. All this is separate from the Public School (ie private) education system. If someone tells you they went to a Comprehensive school it usually means they are of a younger generation than those of us who attended either Grammar or Secondary Modern schools. 

[Spidey]

6 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

You did not read my post and links it is these very Africans and sub continents who came with no ID, let in by Merkels EU policy.

 

Brit bashing again.

 

So where is the evidence for the statement above about Brit nastiness and especially being morons.

 

Still waiting for your long awaited EU reply. I guess like your recent responses you only reply with no conviction and just abuse.

 

As I have stated the British morons would be more than happy to see you give in your British passport. This one would be ecstatic.

Your links provided no evidence that Africans in the UK were let in by Merkel's policy. In fact, the majority let in by Merkel's policy weren't even African, they were Syrian. Britain opted out of the EU migrant policy, as your link says. Britain also opted out of the Shengen agreement, which allows migrants to cross EU borders on Shengen passports.

 

If you're going to post links, at least post links that support your argument, not counter it.

[Laughing Gravy]

2 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Your links provided no evidence that Africans in the UK were let in by Merkel's policy. In fact, the majority let in by Merkel's policy weren't even African, they were Syrian. Britain opted out of the EU migrant policy, as your link says. Britain also opted out of the Shengen agreement, which allows migrants to cross EU borders on Shengen passports.

 

If you're going to post links, at least post links that support your argument, not counter it.

I suggest you buy some glasses so you can see clearly.

 

My argument which has been documented that up to and between 60-80% refugees, of those coming to Europe had no documentation. In fact many were not from worn torn areas with countries like Ghana, Iran and Algeria to name a few.

 

It seems quite convenient that many people don't have documentation claiming to be from worn torn countries when they clearly were not.

 

 

https://www.hrw.org/report/2015/06/19/mediterranean-migration-crisis/why-people-flee-what-eu-should-do#

 

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/678083/Germany-migrant-crisis-80-per-cent-no-documents-passport-registration

 

http://www.pewforum.org/2017/11/29/europes-growing-muslim-population/

 

https://qz.com/1256620/europe-migration-data-2017-germany-granted-the-most-positive-asylum-decisions-in-the-eu/

[simple1]

56 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I suggest you buy some glasses so you can see clearly.

 

My argument which has been documented that up to and between 60-80% refugees, of those coming to Europe had no documentation. In fact many were not from worn torn areas with countries like Ghana, Iran and Algeria to name a few.

 

It seems quite convenient that many people don't have documentation claiming to be from worn torn countries when they clearly were not.

 

 

https://www.hrw.org/report/2015/06/19/mediterranean-migration-crisis/why-people-flee-what-eu-should-do#

 

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/678083/Germany-migrant-crisis-80-per-cent-no-documents-passport-registration

 

http://www.pewforum.org/2017/11/29/europes-growing-muslim-population/

 

https://qz.com/1256620/europe-migration-data-2017-germany-granted-the-most-positive-asylum-decisions-in-the-eu/

 

An asylum seeker does not have to originated from a 'war torn area' to be granted refugee status, there are a number of other criteria which I'm sure you are well aware. From one of your links...

 

According to the UN refugee agency, UNHCR, over 60 percent of the people who took the dangerous sea journey in the first five months of 2015 came from Syria, Somalia, and Afghanistan, countries torn apart by war and generalized violence, or from Eritrea, which is ruled by one of the most repressive governments in Africa. 

 

There are numerous reasons why an asylum seeker would not be carrying home country ID. However, looking at the stats in your links relatively few were carrying false doco claiming to be from Syria and so on; in any case seems border control / asylum seeker assessors in the EU are doing a good job with nailing false claims.

 

There were a number of factors leading to Merkel's waiver of the Dublin Regulations in 2015 in support of front line EU countries. Rather than repeated misrepresentation, try some fact checking. As other have highlighted, UK EU membership did not enable entry of asylum seekers from Africa and elsewhere, UK had and has full control of it's borders for admitting asylum seekers.

 

 

[Laughing Gravy]

22 minutes ago, simple1 said:

 

An asylum seeker does not have to originated from a 'war torn area' to be granted refugee status, there are a number of other criteria which I'm sure you are well aware. From one of your links...

 

According to the UN refugee agency, UNHCR, over 60 percent of the people who took the dangerous sea journey in the first five months of 2015 came from Syria, Somalia, and Afghanistan, countries torn apart by war and generalized violence, or from Eritrea, which is ruled by one of the most repressive governments in Africa. 

 

There are numerous reasons why an asylum seeker would not be carrying home country ID. However, looking at the stats in your links relatively few were carrying false doco claiming to be from Syria and so on; in any case seems border control / asylum seeker assessors in the EU are doing a good job with nailing false claims.

 

There were a number of factors leading to Merkel's waiver of the Dublin Regulations in 2015 in support of front line EU countries. Rather than repeated misrepresentation, try some fact checking. As other have highlighted, UK EU membership did not enable entry of asylum seekers from Africa and elsewhere, UK had and has full control of it's borders for admitting asylum seekers.

 

 

I would suggest you go back and read my argument. Many of those that came as so called refugees or asylum seekers did not have documentation with them. Also it was Merkel's open door policy that caused the influx of people across the EU. As many people point out which was certainly not the reason why I voted for Brexit.

 

I have said my point and it is digressing from why 15 ministers may move with the new so called independent group. a group that have nothing in common with each other than wanting to stop brexit and overturn the referendum result. These people are exactly what is wrong with politics. they do not represent their constituents they represent themselves and care about nobody except themselves.

[AlexRich]

6 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I would suggest you go back and read my argument. Many of those that came as so called refugees or asylum seekers did not have documentation with them. Also it was Merkel's open door policy that caused the influx of people across the EU. As many people point out which was certainly not the reason why I voted for Brexit.

 

I have said my point and it is digressing from why 15 ministers may move with the new so called independent group. a group that have nothing in common with each other than wanting to stop brexit and overturn the referendum result. These people are exactly what is wrong with politics. they do not represent their constituents they represent themselves and care about nobody except themselves.

 

The Independent Group have spotted a niche in the political market, the centre ground. Corbyn is going to the extreme left, and "no deal" Tories are trying to take them to the extreme right, note the influx of new members from the ranks of UKIP, and the threats of de-selection for the more moderate conservatives. 

 

There's not much difference between Cameron's and Blair's Governments, particularly when the Tories teamed up with the Liberals ... so they might just offer a home to voters who don't feel at home with the Corbyn's and Rees Mogg's of this world.