Expats in Thailand considering moving to Latin America prompted by Thai visa changes

[CaptainJack 758]

I was thinking about the comment,  this thread is dying a painful and slow death, and about CDMX.  A few thoughts came to mind.  One, I just spent 3 weeks in CDMX in February with my friend Gustavo.   Never once felt unsafe,  and it is an amazing cosmopolitan city.  Unbelievable diversity.  A bit too expensive for me,  but really a very cool city.

 

The other about this thread.  Personally,  I think after many others have come and gone, this thread will be a reference topic that people from many countries will come to read.  You know, there is always someone who will try and tear down others, for their own selfish and twisted satisfaction.   

 

Anyway,  my post in one of the TM30 threads was my genuine opinion of how things really are.  When we look around the planet and see all that is currently taking place, on about every socioeconomic,  geopolitical and territorially,  it is easy to see, there is nothing for certain right now.  

 

I don't see things settling down for a few years, at best.  This thread is about being proactive and not just waiting and hoping for the best. 

 

So, for the sake of sharing my thoughts,  whether right, wrong,  good or bad, here is what I wrote yesterday. 

 

I think we are at a crossroads globally regarding immigration.   There is just too much change in the system to be one off occurrences. 

 

My comment was:

 

The reality is finally setting in. Last November,  when I went for my first 90 day and and got questioned about the TM30 rule,  and asked for advice from friends and then TV, it was the norm for people to put me down.  I saw the handwriting on the wall on so many levels,  I abandoned my plans to live, "happy ever after", before my next 90 day. 

 

I left, went back to the USA,  via a nice trip through New Zealand,  Australia and Mexico City.   WHY?

 

I don't want to live under the ever increasingly oppressive rules.  But again,  why did it really effect me?  That is simply.  I did not move to Thailand to just sit at home with my girlfriend and watch television.   We were taking weekend trips all over Thailand,  staying at local cottages she knew about and the occasional hotel.

 

I had planned to make Thailand home and homebase to continue to travel and explore Asia.   This is exactly where the entire TM30 rule has broken so many expatriates,  including those that live far from an immigration office.  

 

Everyone needs to get a grip, quit fighting each other, and understand,  Thailand has changed for many, many expats.   For those that never go anywhere,  have the system down pat for 10-30 years, no worries.   For everyone else that had a vision of living their lives here and enjoying their retirement? For many, including me, it is gone.  Why is it so hard for the "old timer's " to understand this.  And why, are those who fall somewhere in my world view, still fighting this.  It is not going to change,  and will only get worse. 

 

I stayed on the forum for two reasons. 

 

One, I made forum friends and it has been an amazing place to learn.

 

Two, I waited to see if things might improve and I might come back to be with my gal.

 

It is time to decide.  Live under the Thai rules and accept your limitations,  restrictions and life as they decide it is to be, or go home or somewhere else. 

 

Can this be any clearer?

 

PS. I can still travel, volunteer and have a great life.  But come back to Thailand and have to worry I'll be detained or hassled. NO! I have traveled all over China by myself with zero problems.  Really! China is easier to travel in then Thailand? Give me a break. 

 

That was my comment.  I stick by it, with one caveat. 

 

There are few guarantees in life, to be sure. There are even fewer when living as a guest in another country.   That ship has already sailed for many. They have no choice but to ride out the storm,  maybe better weather,  or hopefully not, go down with the ship.  There is a time to abandon ship.  We all need to know when.....

[keemapoot 4,778]

^ Interesting long exposition Captain. I completely understand how you arrived at your conclusion, and obviously we are all different with different circumstances. In my case, I have decided to keep working for another few years, but have relocated my business and life to Japan as conditions are favorable for that. I will still come back to Thailand every few months as this remains our permanent (my wife and my) home. However, we have the freedom because of finances to live any life we choose, so we are also thinking of also maybe setting up a home in the states for a few months/year on retirement. Maybe not. maybe we will choose someplace else. But, for sure, the shine has gone off Thailand.

 

For single guys nearing or in retirement, I think this thread will be very important and interesting, and I'm looking forward to your next installment of your adventure in Colombia.

 

 

[snowballthecat 83]

On 8/16/2019 at 6:20 PM, Hans007 said:

I lived in LA for many years...am fluent in Spanish. Lived in Paraguay,Argentina and also Colombia. I can tell you that most prices are way way more in South-America. Also level of service tends to be LOWER then Asia..!! I also have been to Panama,DR,Peru,Brasil and Uruguay.

 

If you want to have a easy country to live in go Argentina...after 2 years of residence you are able to get an Argentine passport!!!!!!!! Compare that to Thailand!!!!! NO WAY you could do that in Asia.

 

The ladies??? well thats very very different from SE Asia....imho. Very difefernt indeed. Outside...and inside. Its just another world.

 

Speaking spanish is a must...if going to Brasil Portugese offcourse. However...latin people tend to be much more violent..then Asians!!!! Tell you that.

 

If have questions..feel free to ask. I will try to answer.

 

suerte

 

Hans

 

On 8/16/2019 at 6:41 PM, keemapoot said:

I spent a lot of time in LA, (Colombia, Venezuela, Brazil, Argentina mostly) but many years ago now. I haven't returned for more than 20 years. I personally love Brazil more than any place in LA, but yes you are correct, can be violent, and dangerous, so you need money to live in your own compound or better neighborhood with condo or apartment security. You can get by in Brazil speaking Spanish, but definitely must speak Spanish for all the other countries. I would say don't even think about it if you can't manage a decent level of Spanish. Overall, for someone used to living in Thailand, yes, it is an adjustment as Latins are more formal. 

 

I am thinking about spending a few months in Argentina, maybe annually, maybe not, when I retire. The bottom line IMO is that those who are used to the casual and easily livable lifestyle in Thailand will be mostly deeply disappointed with living permanently in most places in LA, unless your Spanish is great and even then, it's just not Thailand. So, I think the threshold has to be pretty high to change places, and that everyone who is established here should really think hard and long before moving, and take an extended (multi-month) living abroad experiment first, before tossing in the towel here.

 

Hats off to Captain Jack for spending time in a Mexico recently and reporting his impressions. 

 

 

 

Extended, "multi-month" trial in the chosen country is a must!

 

The worst thing was summed-up by Captain Jack " going directly from Thailand to LA". 

 

There is a "cultural shock" to overcome, whatever country you choose to go. 

 

Even if you choose to return to your own country, you will suffer a "cultural shock", after long staying in Thailand or anywhere in Asia. Your own country also changes in the meanwhile....

 

On 8/17/2019 at 7:16 AM, keemapoot said:

I was just remembering my first trip to Bogota for business. There was a request to also go to medellin and remember rejecting this because it was the most dangerous city in the world at that time with the Escobar drug cartel wars and all. 

 

Wow, have things changed in 30 years.... Now, expats are discussing it as the hot place to retire....

 and, keemapoot, remember that "La mafia c'è, ma non si vede" ("Mafia exist, but cannot be seen").

 

Apply to any country. 

 

 

 

Edited August 18, 2019 by snowballthecat
spelling

[keemapoot 4,778]

6 minutes ago, snowballthecat said:

 and, keemapoot, remember that "La mafia c'e, ma non si vede" ("Mafia exist, but cannot be seen").

 

Apply to any country. 

Anyone thinking of retiring to Colombia really must watch the Nexflix series "Narcos." First, it's excellent dramatic entertainment in the HBO long-form gangster film style of Sopranos, and second it's a sobering reminder of what Colombia used to be like, and that there might be remnants still today.

[Jingthing 69,713]

3 hours ago, keemapoot said:

Anyone thinking of retiring to Colombia really must watch the Nexflix series "Narcos." First, it's excellent dramatic entertainment in the HBO long-form gangster film style of Sopranos, and second it's a sobering reminder of what Colombia used to be like, and that there might be remnants still today.

OK, here we go. Narcos. Ironically the popularity of that show is a large reason that Colombia is more on the international radar. Yes, it's a very high quality and massively entertaining show and definitely recommendable. Yes, it's about a time in the past. Yes, the people of Colombia have suffered through a lot, the narco thing, civil war, even earthquakes. Surely that history has left scars on many people there. But for people going there, mentioning that show or asking where you can score some coke is "high" on the list of things that will generally offend Colombians right along with spelling Colombia wrong.

[Jingthing 69,713]

3 hours ago, snowballthecat said:

 

 

Extended, "multi-month" trial in the chosen country is a must!

 

The worst thing was summed-up by Captain Jack " going directly from Thailand to LA". 

 

There is a "cultural shock" to overcome, whatever country you choose to go. 

 

Even if you choose to return to your own country, you will suffer a "cultural shock", after long staying in Thailand or anywhere in Asia. Your own country also changes in the meanwhile....

 

 and, keemapoot, remember that "La mafia c'è, ma non si vede" ("Mafia exist, but cannot be seen").

 

Apply to any country. 

 

 

 

Funny that you say that.

I may be wrong but because I've lived as an as expat for so long, my feeling is that adjusting to (and certainly affording) life back in the U.S. would actually be a BIGGER shock than adjusting to a new expat destination country.

But in any case, yes, moving to a new country, even your home country after a long time, is a very big deal in anyone's life.

 

Another thing in my personal history. A large portion of my adult life living in the U.S. has been in heavily LATINO areas. So maybe I'm being naïve but I feel I already have a certain comfort level with being a minority in Latino environments. But a really bad sign is that I never bothered to learn Spanish back then!

Edited August 18, 2019 by Jingthing

[Jingthing 69,713]

I mentioned before that the postal service in Colombia is shockingly bad. I think things are OK to receive packages through different private services though. 

 

The situation is better in Mexico. Not great, but better. 

 

Which means that letters sent to you there likely won't ever get there or if they do take several months.

 

You may not expect very much mail but for certain things it could be vital. 

 

Particularly for Americans on social security that are required to both get and send back the notorious "proof of life" letters to avoid benefit cutoff.

 

Now some people just use a U.S. address of a friend of relative. That could work but social security considers that fraud and if they catch you it can be even worse than having a problem with your proof of life letter.

 

So that kind of thing which seems minor can become a deal breaker.

 

Well, I looked into this a bit and it seems there is room for hope of a workaround. 

 

The FBU (foreign benefit units) for Central and South America are in Costa Rica and the Dominican Republic. The D.R. covers Colombia.

 

https://do.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/social-security/

 

Looking at these pages it appears you can act proactively in this way.

 

Say you don't get your first mailing. (They do two, but why wait.)

 

You can then email a PDF to Santa Domingo of the form they supply online and you also must mail it to the U.S.

 

What they don't say is if they will accept the emailed form if the actual form never arrives.

 

Later down the line if your benefits are stopped. You can do similar. According to this site they will start paying within days of getting the email. They don't say whether they will cut it again later if they never get the actual mail in the U.S.

 

But being a little bit optimistic about this, this is better news than I expected. Why? Well you don't really need to worry about GETTING the mail (which you won't). You can get the form online. Then maybe just receiving it by email will solve it. But if not you only have to worry about getting the mail OUT (one way, not two). It seems to me probably the worse case scenario is spending hundreds of dollars for a special service to get a letter out every year. Cheaper than hand delivering it in the U.S. Also suspended benefits are repaid when the issue is resolved.

 

The difference from Thailand is that Thailand Post is actually pretty reliable!

[Jingthing 69,713]

Too good to be true, or what?

 

I've been burned once buying real estate abroad so you'd think I wouldn't be interested in making that mistake again. 

 

That's what I've been thinking but what if the value of what you can buy and the price is so low that it's hard to resist? 

 

I've owned my home most of my life now. Yes, there are hassles but there's no landlord either. So it's a more comfortable feeling. 

 

So what would tempt me?

 

Well, I've heard you can buy a good quality two bedroom, two bath townhouse in Armenia Colombia in a decent upper middle class district for 30,000 dollars. Yes you could rent something like that cheap as well, so why would you buy?

 

Well, that feeling of it being your home. Hedge against the local currency getting stronger. Not having to pay rent, even the low rent. Hedge against rising values and rents. But what might really tempt me is that price. 30,000 I could walk away from if I had too. 100,000 I couldn't. For others the numbers might be very different. 

Edited August 19, 2019 by Jingthing

[sunnyboy2018 4,224]

On 7/7/2019 at 7:11 PM, Jingthing said:

Medellin still has the buzz!

Interesting travel article.

 

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/destinations/south-america/colombia/articles/medellin-murder-capital-to-hipster-destination/

I think I would prefer the narco mafia to the top knotters and latte sippers.

[Jingthing 69,713]

I think I would prefer the narco mafia to the top knotters and latte sippers.

Not familiar with top knotters but you might want to have a peek at Juarez Mexico.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Jingthing 69,713]

About the terms Hispanic, Latino, and Latin America. 
I definitely learned something watching this. 

The definitions are kind of fuzzy, but they are still useful terms.

As I became more exposed to these cultures while living on the U.S. west coast, I favor using Latino vs. Hispanic. 

 

 

[keemapoot 4,778]

8 hours ago, Jingthing said:

About the terms Hispanic, Latino, and Latin America. 
I definitely learned something watching this.

Thanks for that interesting video. One thing it didn't discuss is the highly complex, pervasive, and complicated situation of US-raised Hispanic, latino, and all the other definitions of US citizens who identify with that and who feel an affinity or connection with various countries they visit because of linguistic or cultural background.

 

Myself for example - I am Hispanic. In my case, that means I was raised in the US in a home where both my parents spoke Spanish, but not as primary language. In our home, we spoke English, but when my grandmother visited, we only spoke Spanish. So, in effect, it was a bastardized bilingual upbringing. My father's roots went to Spain, but his family settled in the Southwestern US for a few generations first. Mother was similar. We have no Mexico, Central America or South American roots. However, because I grew up speaking Spanish I had a natural affinity for all things connected with the language. For example, my first extended trip in Spain as a college student, I was like a fish in water. I quickly realized I was mostly fluent. Relatedly, my first trips to Mexico, South America were also easy as I fell into the language and culture easily in all places.

 

However, I have never much identified with "Latino" or "Hispanic" culture as it exists in the US, and I certainly don't appear to be "Hispanic" or "Latino." So, this is a very complicated area, but the language ties and cultural ties go deep. 

 

Again, as I stated, for those with some Spanish language, considering retiring anywhere in LA is much much easier. For people like myself, it's even more natural and easy, but I still prefer Thailand over anywhere in LA.

 

Again, I would urge a long test trip (at least several months) for anyone considering retiring to any LA country. And, as you know, they are all different, with different cultures and living experiences. However, they all share a language, and some cultural similarities, and if you also share some of that, you will have a better transition experience.

[Jingthing 69,713]

Thinking about the fluency thing, obviously someone fluent is going to have a much easier time especially in non-expat ghettos. But I think such things can be relative. If you have rough Spanish it's not like it's impossible that you can adjust, just that it's harder. There are lots of things in life like that. Not everything needs to be completely optimal in order to be worth doing or at least trying out for size. You don't have to be tennis pro to have fun playing tennis but maybe not a good example because if you're playing a pro it's going to be bad for both of you!

[Andrew Dwyer 14,445]

Thinking about the fluency thing, obviously someone fluent is going to have a much easier time especially in non-expat ghettos. But I think such things can be relative. If you have rough Spanish it's not like it's impossible that you can adjust, just that it's harder. There are lots of things in life like that. Not everything needs to be completely optimal in order to be worth doing or at least trying out for size. You don't have to be tennis pro to have fun playing tennis but maybe not a good example because if you're playing a pro it's going to be bad for both of you!

Fluency in Spanish is certainly going to help, but let’s be honest, you are not going to become fluent living here in Thailand.
Gain a good grasp on the language so you can make yourself understood and fluency will come quickly from immersion in the LA country.

When I went to Brazil I knew absolutely zero portuguese, a few words in Spanish at best, but living there was like living in a 24 hour language school !!


Of course I had motives, my gf ( later my wife ) spoke no English whatsoever, so I had great motivation.

[Jingthing 69,713]

6 minutes ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

Fluency in Spanish is certainly going to help, but let’s be honest, you are not going to become fluent living here in Thailand.
Gain a good grasp on the language so you can make yourself understood and fluency will come quickly from immersion in the LA country.

When I went to Brazil I knew absolutely zero portuguese, a few words in Spanish at best, but living there was like living in a 24 hour language school !!


Of course I had motives, my gf ( later my wife ) spoke no English whatsoever, so I had great motivation.

Of course, Thailand is not a good place to learn Spanish. Massive understatement.

When I visited Brazil only as a tourist I had done the Pimsleur tourism tapes and I was actually getting by with that … as a tourist. People were cool about it.

I felt a lot more comfortable in Brazil with the language than Portugal. For some weird reason, Portuguese as spoken in Portugal really bummed me out. Like I had an emotional reaction to it and it was not a good one. 

Edited August 22, 2019 by Jingthing