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BANGKOK 25 March 2019 14:24
fvw53

is not receiving an invoice a legal pretext to refuse to pay common fees in condomium

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37 minutes ago, inThailand said:

Does your management actually have 10 years of good accounting records to carry out such a plan? 

in thailand? that would be a miracle....

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Disagree I live in a condo with more than 10 years of official accounts. The easy way to get people to pay their fees is to state the water will be disconnected if fees are not kept up to date allow two months grace after notice. This will get attention and get the majority of fees paid but you must provide an account invoice to show credit or debit for the individual units post payment.

 

 

Ken.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, fvw53 said:

Many co-owners accepted to pay the arrears and the penalties as they were voted a long time ago. The question is that other co-owners refuse to pay the penalties because they say that they got no invoices (=requests to pay) /  if this pretext is legally acceptable then those who already paid the penalties will be furious if others can use this pretext and escape from the penalties.

See Section 18 of Thai Condo Act 2008 here under :

I understood the question and I know the Condo Act.

 

My point was that if the fee is legal then the bills are payable according to the building by-laws regardless of whether the invoice was received or not. Penalties are also payable for the same reason though it would be advisable to send a written warning in advance before applying them. This warning would normally be part of later invoices. Warnings could also be given out in the annual meetings and there should be no real excuse for not knowing that money is due.

So for me it all hinges on whether or not the fees were all legally voted or not. If they were then the debt exists and should be paid.

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2 hours ago, inThailand said:

Our bylaws say payment is due after an invoice is received. Review your bylaws. 

 

The bylaws should also state what the current fee amount is and yes, they should reflect what the majority voted for and these meeting minutes duly registered and the bylaws updated.

My by-laws are fine and dont need reviewing, thanks.

 

As I pointed out the by-laws will state the amount of the common fee but not of any supplementary fees that are imposed by vote at a GM. However any such extra fees are valid and should be paid, even though they are not mentioned in the by-laws.

 

Changing the by-laws to permanently increase the basic common fee generally requires a very large percentage of co-owners to agree to it, and so is unlikely to happen in many older buildings where it is needed. Some provision for automatic increases may be included in the by-laws of newer buildings.

 

 

2 hours ago, inThailand said:

By law, after 6 months of unpaid fees the JP Mgr can sell their property. 

No, he cant. He can apply to the court to sell it though. The court is unlikely to agree unless the amount of the fee/penalties is a significant proportion of the value of the unit, and goes back many years. Six months wont be anywhere near enough. The co-owner being dead might be another valid reason.

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8 hours ago, john2211 said:

Is there any mechanism to force non payers to pay?

Yes.  Take them to court.  At a recent annual meeting that I attended as a proxy, I saw that the condo had excellent results by first sending out a letter to delinquent owners threatening court action.  This took care of the majority of delinquent owners.  The remaining delinquent owners were taken to court  in batches and the condo won the cases that have been decided so far.  From a delinquency rate of around 30%, the condo now has, if I remember correctly, around 95% compliance. 

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10 hours ago, newnative said:

At a recent annual meeting that I attended as a proxy, I saw that the condo had excellent results by first sending out a letter to delinquent owners threatening court action.  This took care of the majority of delinquent owners.

Yes, the threat is usually enough for most people.

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17 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

Yes, I reckon after 10 years of mis-management you need to take a pragmatic approach.

 

For the non payers - To avoid the penalties.

  • Start paying now.
  • Pay a percentage of owed back fee.

Fail in the above and the full force of owed fees and penalties and the law come in to play.

 

 

There are in total 165 co-owners, about 1/3 always paid the common fees on time regardless if they got invoice or not, about 1/3 started with the change of management to pay the arrears and also the penalties and for some of them this was several hundred thousands of Baht....How can we start to negotiate with the remaining 1/3 and reduce their penalties while infuriating those who  accepted to pay the full penalties. A TVF member suggests in this case to reimburse the penalties paid by the second group....while there is a delay of 6 to 8 months to pay the companies providing the guards, the cleaning women...and now a maintenance company sends pro forma invoice of 2.4 million Baht to renovate the elevators (the total of the unpaid common fees is 15 million Baht)

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Just read your JP regulations and apply the rules stated. Follow up with legal action if justified according to the rules.

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6 hours ago, fvw53 said:

How can we start to negotiate with the remaining 1/3 and reduce their penalties while infuriating those who  accepted to pay the full penalties. A TVF member suggests in this case to reimburse the penalties paid by the second group...

I dont see how you can possibly write off some debts without giving a similar gift to all other co-owners who have always paid up to date. Not only isnt it fair but it is tantamount to embezzlement. The whole point about a condo is that it is a co-ownership with everyone (supposedly) being treated the same way and everyone paying their fair share of costs.

If my management/committee tried to do this they would never hear the end of it from me.

 

The only workable answer is to make the freeloaders pay every Baht that they owe, including all the legal penalties.

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14 hours ago, fvw53 said:

There are in total 165 co-owners, about 1/3 always paid the common fees on time regardless if they got invoice or not, about 1/3 started with the change of management to pay the arrears and also the penalties and for some of them this was several hundred thousands of Baht....How can we start to negotiate with the remaining 1/3 and reduce their penalties while infuriating those who  accepted to pay the full penalties. A TVF member suggests in this case to reimburse the penalties paid by the second group....while there is a delay of 6 to 8 months to pay the companies providing the guards, the cleaning women...and now a maintenance company sends pro forma invoice of 2.4 million Baht to renovate the elevators (the total of the unpaid common fees is 15 million Baht)

You must apply the same criteria to all owners, ie fee collection and penalties. Since about 1/3 are delinquent apply the rules to to them like the other 2/3 have or are adhering too. You cannot grant discounts or waive fees or fee penalties for a subset of owners. Put another way, why should delinquent owners get a break over those owners paying on time?

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Posted (edited)

We have a strict rule in my condo. 6 months overdue we cut off the water, 12 months we take them to Court. Fees/penalties are applied to late payers. We had fun with the original developer who still owns 70 condos and refused to pay the common fee. After several Court visits we got them to pay with a very large amount of fees and penalties, which helped our finances. You have to be strict and enforce the rules straight away not wait for months/years.

 

I agree with others here the non payers should NOT get any better treatment than prompt payers. Take them for EVERY baht.

Edited by Henryford

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On 3/7/2019 at 11:41 AM, fvw53 said:

[…] for some of them this was several hundred thousands of Baht

This sounds extreme. To arrive at late fees of more than 200,000 baht then the owner must have neglected to pay for the entire 10 years and have a reasonable sized condo (relative to the building having 165 units and what gets built today).

 

E.g. 80 sq. m. at 35 baht per sq. m. per month is only 181,440 baht in late fees after 10 years, going by the maximum 12% that can be charged according to the Thai Condo Act (which does not allow compounding, and require that the fee be specified in the bylaws).

 

If someone has actually paid nothing for 10 years, it’s hard to claim ignorance, OTOH it really is the building’s responsibility to send out invoices, and without having sent out invoices with payment terms, it’s hard to claim late fees.

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15 hours ago, lkn said:

This sounds extreme. To arrive at late fees of more than 200,000 baht then the owner must have neglected to pay for the entire 10 years and have a reasonable sized condo (relative to the building having 165 units and what gets built today).

 

E.g. 80 sq. m. at 35 baht per sq. m. per month is only 181,440 baht in late fees after 10 years, going by the maximum 12% that can be charged according to the Thai Condo Act (which does not allow compounding, and require that the fee be specified in the bylaws).

 

If someone has actually paid nothing for 10 years, it’s hard to claim ignorance, OTOH it really is the building’s responsibility to send out invoices, and without having sent out invoices with payment terms, it’s hard to claim late fees.

yes we had 10 years of severe negligence by Committee and by Manager of Juristic Person

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On 3/16/2019 at 11:55 AM, fvw53 said:

yes we had 10 years of severe negligence by Committee and by Manager of Juristic Person

This is probably more the norm here? 

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