Testosterone - Testoviron - Where to buy in CM

[heybruce]

12 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

Cholesterol always gets a bad rap as the cause of coronary disease, when in fact there is not really a causal relationship at all.  It is only an associative relationship.  In other words, people who have heart disease also tend to have high levels of cholesterol, and it is not necessarily that high cholesterol cause the disease.

 

Cholesterol is simply the body's response to fight inflammation.  It’s a response to repair damaged arterial walls caused by metabolic inflammation.  It’s sort of like the body’s band-aid.  It is the underlying inflammation that is the cause of disease, not cholesterol.  

 

Yet this myth persists.  It’s like saying that every time there is a house fire, firemen are on the scene.  Therefore, firemen must be causing house fires!

 

Metabolic inflammation causes cholesterol response which can lead to plaques that may lead to coronary disease.  The goal should be to address the underlying metabolic inflammation.

 

This inflammation is usually the result of poor nutrition, and no, I'm not saying that dietary cholesterol is the cause either.  There is no science based reason to believe that consumption of dietary cholesterol result in increased levels of indigenous cholesterol in the body.  In a normal, healthy individual, the body produces far more cholesterol than most people will consume from dietary sources.

 

The dietary sources inflammation are those foods that disrupt the metabolic hormonal balance, principally those foods that unnaturally raise insulin levels such as highly processed carbohydrates, and nutritional habits of eating from the moment you wake up until the time you go to bed (food grazing) so that insulin levels are continually at unnaturally high levels and eventually will lead to receptor insensitivity.  "metabolic syndrome" is the result.  Google the term to understand it better.

 

Fixing your diet is the remedy to Metabolic Syndrome.  Simple dietary changes can result in reduced inflammation and therefore reduced release of cholesterol to address the inflammation, and thus less likelihood of developing arterial plaques that can lead to coronary disease.  It's actually pretty simple when you think about it.

My father, who exercised regularly, ate a healthy diet, maintained a healthy weight, and drank moderately, died of a heart attack at age 69 caused by a build up of cholesterol in the blood vessels around his heart. 

 

I posted that because kurtgruen stated that taking medically prescribed Testoviron resulted in very high cholesterol.   I made it clear that taking Testoviron when prescribed by a doctor is fine, but one should not self-medicate, one should always consult a doctor.

 

Are you stating that the high levels of cholesterol resulting from taking Testoviron are harmless and not a cause for concern?  Are you endorsing this kind of self-medication without consulting a doctor?

[WaveHunter]

11 hours ago, heybruce said:

My father, who exercised regularly, ate a healthy diet, maintained a healthy weight, and drank moderately, died of a heart attack at age 69 caused by a build up of cholesterol in the blood vessels around his heart. 

 

I posted that because kurtgruen stated that taking medically prescribed Testoviron resulted in very high cholesterol.   I made it clear that taking Testoviron when prescribed by a doctor is fine, but one should not self-medicate, one should always consult a doctor.

 

Are you stating that the high levels of cholesterol resulting from taking Testoviron are harmless and not a cause for concern?  Are you endorsing this kind of self-medication without consulting a doctor?

No, I’m not saying that unusually high levels of exogenous testosterone can’t lead to high levels of endogenous cholesterol, but the underlying cause of coronary disease will be what caused the high cholesterol, not the cholesterol itself.  In other words, the testosterone is the cause.

 

Neither do I deny that @partington is incorrect.  Any factor that leads to excessive endogenous levels of cholesterol can be associative to coronary disease, but it is those factors that precipitate the high cholesterol that are the actual “cause”.

 

For the vast majority of people who develop coronary disease, the actual underlying cause is excessive carbohydrates that ultimately leads to insulin receptor insensitivity, which in turn leads  to metabolic inflammation.  So, the underlying cause is actually excessive carbs.

 

My point is simply that the underlying cause for excessive endogenous cholesterol is what’s important.  Excessive cholesterol is only a symptom, not a cause.

 

The situation is similar to Diabetes type 2.  Sure, there are non-nutritional causes to this too, but the predominant causes are nutrition based.  Yet, doctors don’t treat it as such.  Rather, they view the cause as high blood sugar, and administer insulin as treatment.  In other words, they treat the symptom, not the actual underlying cause, and in the case of D-type 2, exogenous insulin only exacerbates the problem.  It may address the symptom in the short term, but the patient only gets sicker in the long term.  It’s like giving alcohol to an alcoholic.

[partington]

5 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

 

Neither do I deny that @partington is incorrect.  Any factor that leads to excessive endogenous levels of cholesterol can be associative to coronary disease, but it is those factors that precipitate the high cholesterol that are the actual “cause”.

 

For the vast majority of people who develop coronary disease, the actual underlying cause is excessive carbohydrates that ultimately leads to insulin receptor insensitivity, which in turn leads  to metabolic inflammation.  So, the underlying cause is actually excessive carbs.

 

 

This is transparently faulty logic.

 

If reducing cholesterol reduces heart disease, then cholesterol is the cause.

 

If you have too much cholesterol because, for example, your LDL receptors don't work, then physically removing the cholesterol does not make your LDL receptors work again, but it does prevent the accelerated heart disease that occurs if you don't remove the cholesterol.  

 

Therefore it is not the factor that precipitates the high cholesterol, but the cholesterol itself. This is not "association" as you claimed, but causation. Contrary to  your earlier incorrect analogy, cholesterol is an arsonist, not a fireman.

 

I think you are riding so enthusiastically on a hobby horse that it is preventing you thinking straight.

[heybruce]

12 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

No, I’m not saying that unusually high levels of exogenous testosterone can’t lead to high levels of endogenous cholesterol, but the underlying cause of coronary disease will be what caused the high cholesterol, not the cholesterol itself.  In other words, the testosterone is the cause.

 

Neither do I deny that @partington is incorrect.  Any factor that leads to excessive endogenous levels of cholesterol can be associative to coronary disease, but it is those factors that precipitate the high cholesterol that are the actual “cause”.

 

For the vast majority of people who develop coronary disease, the actual underlying cause is excessive carbohydrates that ultimately leads to insulin receptor insensitivity, which in turn leads  to metabolic inflammation.  So, the underlying cause is actually excessive carbs.

 

My point is simply that the underlying cause for excessive endogenous cholesterol is what’s important.  Excessive cholesterol is only a symptom, not a cause.

 

The situation is similar to Diabetes type 2.  Sure, there are non-nutritional causes to this too, but the predominant causes are nutrition based.  Yet, doctors don’t treat it as such.  Rather, they view the cause as high blood sugar, and administer insulin as treatment.  In other words, they treat the symptom, not the actual underlying cause, and in the case of D-type 2, exogenous insulin only exacerbates the problem.  It may address the symptom in the short term, but the patient only gets sicker in the long term.  It’s like giving alcohol to an alcoholic.

Keeping in mind that this is a topic about testosterone/testoviron, do you agree that taking testoviron, which apparently leads to high cholesterol, without consulting a doctor is potentially dangerous?  That was the point of my post.

 

Whether high cholesterol causes heart disease or simply indicates a condition that causes heart disease is not the current topic.

[hmficc]

Only problem I have had with it is beating the hell out of people for nothing a day or two after the shot.

[BestB]

Testovirine by Beyer is better but for some reason no longer available in a box of 20, only single amps, 220-250 baht each 

[amexpat]

10 minutes ago, BestB said:

Testovirine by Beyer is better but for some reason no longer available in a box of 20, only single amps, 220-250 baht each 

 

Where?

[BestB]

12 minutes ago, amexpat said:

 

Where?

Can not help in CM but in Pattaya most pharmacies have Beyer singles now. If you in Pattaya can tell you precise locations and price ????

[WaveHunter]

On 7/29/2019 at 4:37 PM, partington said:

This is transparently faulty logic.

 

If reducing cholesterol reduces heart disease, then cholesterol is the cause.

 

If you have too much cholesterol because, for example, your LDL receptors don't work, then physically removing the cholesterol does not make your LDL receptors work again, but it does prevent the accelerated heart disease that occurs if you don't remove the cholesterol.  

 

Therefore it is not the factor that precipitates the high cholesterol, but the cholesterol itself. This is not "association" as you claimed, but causation. Contrary to  your earlier incorrect analogy, cholesterol is an arsonist, not a fireman.

 

I think you are riding so enthusiastically on a hobby horse that it is preventing you thinking straight.

Yes!  Reducing excessive endogenous cholesterol reduces possibility of arterial wall plaques that can lead to coronary disease!  BUT that doesn’t make cholesterol the cause of coronary disease.  

 

The body’s production of unusually high levels of cholesterol that can lead to arterial plaques is only a response to metabolic inflammation that causes damage to arterial walls.  Therefore metabolic inflammation is the real underlying cause!

 

The conventional wisdom such as you seem to adhere to, is to ignore the underlying cause (metabolic inflammation) and only treat the symptom (high endogenous cholesterol) with drugs like Statins, OR subscribe to the idea that excessive dietary cholesterol causes high serum levels of cholesterol (which is patently untrue).

 

Metabolic inflammation is the real culprit that leads to high serum cholesterol which can lead to arterial plaques.  Fix the underlying cause of that inflammation and endogenous levels of cholesterol return to normal.

 

Metabolic inflammation is caused by hormonal imbalances, and can have many root causes, but for the majority of people with preventable coronary disease, the root cause is simply poor nutrition that leads to obesity.

 

In the case being discussed by @heybruce, high levels of exogenous testosterone (TRT) can also be an underlying cause...again, anything that leads to metabolic hormonal imbalance cause an inflammatory response.

 

Its a major problem with medicine today; ignoring the underlying cause of disease, and only treating symptoms.  High levels of endogenous levels of cholesterol (what the body produces) may be the cause of arterial plaques, but it’s the underlying cause of what’s making the body produce all that cholesterol that is the true root cause...TREAT THE UNDERLYING CAUSE NOT THE SYMPTOM.

[WaveHunter]

4 hours ago, hyku1147 said:

Niacin can reduce 'bad cholesterol'.

https://www.webmd.com/diet/supplement-guide-niacin#1

I know I'll receive a lot of flack but many people are missing the big picture of the relationship of cholesterol to heart disease.

 

The idea that cholesterol is evil is very much engrained in most people's minds. But this is a very harmful myth.  Cholesterol is neither good or bad.  Cholesterol is a vital component of every cell membrane; We would not be here without it.  Cholesterol is a precursor to all of the steroid hormones. You cannot make estrogen, testosterone, cortisone and a host of other vital hormones without cholesterol.  If your cholesterol level is too low you will not be able to use the sun to generate sufficient levels of vitamin D.

 

The release of cholesterol by the liver serves another vital purpose.  It is your body's natural response to invaders it perceives as threats. If you get a cut for instance, the process of inflammation is what allows you to heal.  If your arteries are damaged, a very similar process occurs inside of your body, except that a "scar" in your artery occurs, known as plaque.  THIS is where the danger to heart health originates.  Cholesterol did not cause the initial damage to the arteries; factors that led to the inflammatory response are responsible!

 

Cholesterol comes into the picture now because, in order to replace your damaged cells, it is necessary since new cells can not be formed without it.  So if you have damaged cells that need to be replaced, your liver will be notified to make more cholesterol and release it into your bloodstream. This is a deliberate process that takes place in order for your body to produce new, healthy cells.

 

The body's production of cholesterol is therefore a healthy response. The trouble occurs when the underlying inflammation is chronic.  The repeated formation of new plaques, along with the thickening of the blood and continuing constriction of blood vessels can indeed increase your risk of high blood pressure and heart attacks. 

 

Factors responsible for the underlying inflammation should be the main concern, especially since many of these factors are preventable, most notable, poor nutrtion!  The most important blood test should be a C-reactive protein (CRP) blood test. CRP level is used as a marker of inflammation in your arteries.

 

So, if you look at the big picture, factors that led to the inflammatory response are the underlying caused of heart attacks.  Inflammation and the resultant release of cholesterol by the liver are simply the body's response to repair that damage.  It's just logical that one should be more concerned with the underlying cause, rather than try to alter the body's response to it with cholesterol lowering drugs.

 

The American Heart Association updated their guidelines in 2004, lowering the recommended level of "LDL cholesterol" from 130 to less than 100, or even less than 70 for patients at very high risk.  

 

In order to achieve these outrageous and dangerously low targets, requires the use of multiple cholesterol-lowering drugs.  So, these new guidelines instantly increased the market for these dangerous drugs.  Now, with testing children's cholesterol levels, they're increasing their market even more!  THAT is where the cholesterol "myth" comes from.

 

There are no such things as "good" or "bad" cholesterol.  LDL and HDL are lipoproteins -- fats combined with proteins. There is only one cholesterol.  Cholesterol is just cholesterol!  It combines with other fats and proteins to be carried through the bloodstream, since fat and watery blood do not mix very well.  Fatty substances therefore must be shuttled to and from body tissues and cells using proteins. LDL and HDL are forms of proteins and are far from being just cholesterol.

 

LDL particles (the so-called bad cholesterol) come in many sizes.  Large LDL particles are not a problem. Only the so-called small dense LDL particles can potentially be a problem, because they can squeeze through the lining of the arteries and if they oxidize they can cause damage and inflammation. 

 

The key to good heart health is to eliminate the underlying causes of inflammatory response, NOT to alter the body's natural production of cholesterol with drugs!

 

 

[itsmrchris]

There was a shortage.  But they are available again.  Check out the Pharma Choice locations.  on Suthep Rd and Canal road.  Both were available a month ago.  Although the 20 amp boxed are now gone for good, you have to buy 1amp at a time - but same Bayer Testoviron - just new packaging ????

[WaveHunter]

 

On 7/30/2019 at 11:27 PM, BestB said:

Testovirine by Beyer is better but for some reason no longer available in a box of 20, only single amps, 220-250 baht each 

FYI, Testosterone Enanthate 250mg/mL by RotexMedica (Germany) is pharma-grade and same quality as Beyer, and is available again in Thailand in 20 amp boxes.  Cost is 3300 baht per box.

 

Beyer apparently is indeed history.  Details are pretty sketchy but something to do with long-term issues with their production labs.  This has been going on since last October so my guess is it won't be resolved, and if you buy single amps, I'd be real concerned about authenticity and expiry dates for sure.

 

I am in Pattaya, but if you are in Chiang Mai, chances are that Peera Pharmacy will have RotexMedica.

 

[Somnambulist]

I went to Peera's yesterday and she now has only gel and pills.  She said the gel is better, although more expensive.  I bought the gel.  Androgel 50Mg, 30 sachets for 2,600 baht.  

[WaveHunter]

11 hours ago, Somnambulist said:

I went to Peera's yesterday and she now has only gel and pills.  She said the gel is better, although more expensive.  I bought the gel.  Androgel 50Mg, 30 sachets for 2,600 baht.  

Gels are a poor choice (very little efficacy compared with injection, messy to use, and you can easily contaminate others you have physical contact with like girlfriend, wife, or your kids) and pills are an even poorer choice as there is no such thing (I.e.: scam).  

 

I’m surprised she would recommend those options as she is normally very honest and helpful, and should easily be able to stock RotexMedica since the distributor is in Bangkok and is now in stock.

 

I can almost guarantee you will be disappointed with gel.   

My advice: contact the distributor of RotexMedica in Bangkok (See my picture of box for telephone number).  

 

Seriously, injectable test is entirely legal in Thailand, and if they can’t give you the name of a local pharmacy carrying it, perhaps they can ship it to you directly.

[amexpat]

1 hour ago, WaveHunter said:

Gels are a poor choice (very little efficacy compared with injection, messy to use, and you can easily contaminate others you have physical contact with like girlfriend, wife, or your kids) and pills are an even poorer choice as there is no such thing (I.e.: scam).  

Nope.

 

- I started with the gel and switched because my levels went too high.  Also the price.

- Just avoid contact with others until it dries completely.

- Pills are FDA approved but with cautions about side effects. 

[WaveHunter]

1 hour ago, amexpat said:

Nope.

 

- I started with the gel and switched because my levels went too high.  Also the price.

- Just avoid contact with others until it dries completely.

- Pills are FDA approved but with cautions about side effects. 

Unfortunately the newly FDA-approved "pill", (testosterone undecanoate) isn’t really intended for age-related testosterone declines. Instead, it’s intended to treat people who have hypogonadism because of less common causes, such as tumors of the pituitary gland or Klinefelter’s syndrome.  THe FDA guidelines explicitly state that it "should not be used to treat men with age-related hypogonadism".

 

All other "pills" claiming to raise testosterone (and there are many) are scams. 

 

The Undecanoate form of Test is also far from ideal for fine-tuning TRT dosage due to its' unusually long half-life.  It also has another negative for TRT in terms of not being able to sustain a stable serum level between administrations, compared with forms of Test that have a shorter half-life like Enanthate (i.e.: Beyer Testoviron or Retromedica).

 

The problem with gels; even if dry, you can still contaminate others.  Furthermore, gels make it difficult to precisely control actual delivered amount, whereas injection is very precise since it is in syringe-units.  Most users of gels experience under-dosage; of course (as in your case) it can be the other way around. 

 

The point is, gels are hard to optimally dose whereas injected testosterone dosages can be very precisely fine-tuned, and if using shorter half-life Enanthate, optimal dosage can be figured out (with aid of blood testing) in a matter of weeks, not months (as would be the case if using Undecanoate).

 

All in all, my view is that gels are the most expensive delivery mode, and least controllable in terms of optimizing dosage, and the new FDA-approved pills are simply not intended for TRT, and if used for TRT would provide very unstable serum levels over time.

 

[ebean001]

On ‎4‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 3:28 PM, MickeyDelux said:

exercise everyday, eat a healthy whole food diet, regularly practice fasting, don't drink alcohol, don't smoke cigarettes, don't use non-prescription drugs, don't watch porn/masturbate. If you're overweight, lose it. Do this and your libido will improve immensely, in as little as 30 days, and you'll save money. Keep doing it and you'll surprise yourself and your partner(s) with your vitality. 

of course I do not want to do that. ????

[Somnambulist]

I went to Peera's the other day and asked her to order the RotexMedica product but she said she had already tried to reach them on the phone but no one would answer. 

[orang37]

On 4/25/2019 at 3:28 PM, MickeyDelux said:

exercise everyday, eat a healthy whole food diet, regularly practice fasting, don't drink alcohol, don't smoke cigarettes, don't use non-prescription drugs, don't watch porn/masturbate. If you're overweight, lose it. Do this and your libido will improve immensely, in as little as 30 days, and you'll save money. Keep doing it and you'll surprise yourself and your partner(s) with your vitality. 

 

You did leave out celibacy and medically induced coma ...

 

But, I do see wisdom in the gist: often relatively simple health practices (exercise, diet, sleep) can have a big payoff.

 

Which would you rather "pay for:" a half-hour of walking a day, or an angiogram, stent, etc. ? 

 

I question if a natural, age-related, decline in testosterone is inherently a "medical" problem; is it just another symptom of a medical culture focused on pathology, and the over-objectification of the "perfect" body in the mirror of eternal youth that saturates media ?

 

Realistically, however, even people with the healthiest lifestyles may be vulnerable to whatever serious diseases because of inherited genetic weakness.

 

Happy thought of the day: Age will bring us down, and Death will finish us off, sooner, or later: what behavioral price are you willing to pay for 'later" ?

 

If only I could live by what I know !

 

~o:37;

[SammyJ]

On 4/24/2019 at 6:36 PM, sidjameson said:

Orang 37, thanks for that info.

Im 51 and defintely feel a malaise as you put it. Much lower libido and wondering what can be done about it.

Ridiculous question to ask i know, but do you think that dr could help?

google and read some of the reputable sites about the pros and cons of t supplements, and the various options available--and the necessary tests to determine your accurate t levels--this is not something to self prescribe without medical advice and monitoring.

[EricTh]

On 8/2/2019 at 11:20 AM, WaveHunter said:

 

FYI, Testosterone Enanthate 250mg/mL by RotexMedica (Germany) is pharma-grade

 

 

Mind telling us what were your conditions before taking this and after taking, how did your conditions improve?

 

Which part of the body do you inject on?

 

 

 

[WaveHunter]

On 9/10/2019 at 1:56 PM, EricTh said:

 

Mind telling us what were your conditions before taking this and after taking, how did your conditions improve?

 

Which part of the body do you inject on?

 

 

 

I just had low T in blood tests; no real symptoms of anything.  To be honest, raising T up to suggested levels really did very little that I noticed except maybe I felt more energetic and seemed to have a bit better lean mass, but certainly not all the “miraculous” things often touted by TRT Gurus.  

 

Like most things that sound “to good to be true” and in fact are not all they’re made out to be,  TRT is no exception.

 

You can inject sub-q (into fat beneath skin) with a small 31ga needle, or IM (deeper into muscle like the glutes) with a 23ga 1.25 inch needle.  I’ve done both and prefer IM.  Either way is equally effective.

 

As others have said, even though no prescription is required, you should consult a physician and have blood tests before starting a regimen, and absolutely have periodic blood tests while on TRT.  You can seriously screw your body up if you don’t know what you’re doing.

[moe666]

Years ago in the states when I started using Test. cream the Pharmacist warmed me no big bang, you will not be jumping over tall building more than likely only a sense of well being. I had more of a reaction the first time I started using liquid zinc, as it inhibts estrogen conversion and you have more free test. I bought some gel from the two sisters pharmacy at Thapae gate a while back and she had ampules of injectable test.

My health problem is low cholestrol it was 105 the last time I had it checked at RAM. It has been like that for years. I would love to get it up to 150 but that entails to much orange juice

[BestB]

On 8/2/2019 at 11:20 AM, WaveHunter said:

 

FYI, Testosterone Enanthate 250mg/mL by RotexMedica (Germany) is pharma-grade and same quality as Beyer, and is available again in Thailand in 20 amp boxes.  Cost is 3300 baht per box.

 

Beyer apparently is indeed history.  Details are pretty sketchy but something to do with long-term issues with their production labs.  This has been going on since last October so my guess is it won't be resolved, and if you buy single amps, I'd be real concerned about authenticity and expiry dates for sure.

 

I am in Pattaya, but if you are in Chiang Mai, chances are that Peera Pharmacy will have RotexMedica.

 

No idea why you quoting me but Beyer did not have any problems with it’s lab production , just stopped making box of 20 as selling in singles is more profitable .

 

the Rotex is not as good as Beyer and 3300 is also overpriced.  Price in Pattaya is 3000 baht 

[WaveHunter]

On 9/11/2019 at 7:08 PM, BestB said:

No idea why you quoting me but Beyer did not have any problems with it’s lab production , just stopped making box of 20 as selling in singles is more profitable .

 

the Rotex is not as good as Beyer and 3300 is also overpriced.  Price in Pattaya is 3000 baht 

Sorry but I think you are wrong.  First of all, there is and has been a shortage of Testosterone from Bayer since last year. 

 

As one example of proof, The AIFA (Italian Drug Agency) on February 8, 2019 updated the list of drugs that were temporarily lacking or unavailable on the international market. The list includes Bayer Testoviron. The agency reports that it has been out of production since September 2018.  The reason they cite is "...Suspended for "problems related to production in September 2018...". 

 

The report also states that in September 2019, a resumption of marketing is assumed. 

 

Any "Bayer Testoviron" on the market right now is likely fake, and if the production date is after September, 2018 it is absolutely fake! 

 

That sentiment is supported by numerous reports of fake Bayer testoviron that started flooding the market last year.  As an example, see https://www.health.gov.il/English/News_and_Events/Spokespersons_Messages/Pages/28102018_3.aspx

 

Your assumption that Bayer no longer sells 20-packs because singles are more profitable is not something a major pharmaceutical company would do.  They would not sell a fragile glass ampule without protective packaging, and I have never seen single ampules with any sort of manufacturer's protective packaging. 

 

Further, it would be more expensive to market singles and thus less profitable due to economy of scale, not the other way around, as you claim.

 

The only way you purchase singles is if the pharmacist has broken down a box of 20 ampules to sell individually.

 

As for Rotex not being as good as Bayer, on what basis do you say that?  I have been using it since last October and my blood tests are right on the money.  I buy from a trusted pharmacists and if he wants to charge me an extra 300 baht over what another pharmacist might charge for something that might be fake, I'll happily pay the extra amount.  Furthermore, Rotex is MUCH LESS likely to be faked than Bayer.

 

Sorry...not trying to pick a fight with you; I just don't want people to be buying fake Bayer Test, or mistakenly believing that there is anything wrong with Rotexmedica.  It is pharmaceutical grade.  If you have proof counter to what I said, please provide.

[amexpat]

On 9/16/2019 at 10:07 AM, WaveHunter said:

Any "Bayer Testoviron" on the market right now is likely fake, and if the production date is after September, 2018 it is absolutely fake! 

I have a supply from Ram hospital.  They have an expiration date - 2023 but no production date.

 

If yours shows a production date, it may be fake. ????

[stephenterry]

I agree with WH, the best 'medicine' is prevention, not treatment. Unfortunately, the Pharma industry  - as well as the junk food industry - promotes the opposite, owing to their bottom line financial benefit.

 

Doctors focus on three main treatment solutions: Surgery, chemotherapy, and radiology.  Improved nutrition  - which should be the No 1 key component  - is ignored, disregarded, and vastly underfunded.  

 

However, the human body is about the most complex of its kind in creation. Switching to a nutritious diet and a lifestyle change (recommended) is fraught with complexity as to how the body would react.

 

Whilst we all have different DNA, and genetic make-up, it doesn't mean that a focused nutrition change can't influence the genetics - because it could. Also, imbibing supplements is NOT the complete answer, because of the complexity of the bodily functions processing these.

 

In other words, an accurate analysis of different processes involved is  - to a large extent - unknown. All that is understood is the end effect, and that could take years to show whether it was a short or long-term benefit - or not.   

 

in short, whether taking supplements (in general) is good or bad healthwise, is scientifically unproven to a 'gold standard'. Vitamin D (a hormone supplement) excepted. It is beneficial if a lack of sunshine is not readily available - e.g. far-northern hemisphere countries.

 

And unless the doctor has had at least ten years researching the study of global nutrition practices, I'd take his or her advice (excepting regular monitoring tests) regarding testosterone supplements with a pinch of salt - pun intended.  

 

Good luck.

 

 

[WaveHunter]

2 hours ago, FredGallaher said:

Sub q would give too fast a rise in serum levels. IM is the way to go. Best to start with supervision of MD, and not what you read on the internet or in forums. 

Not true about too fast a rise in serum levels.  Plenty of scientific studies show equal efficacy of Sub-Q vs IM, as far as relatively low TRT doses go.  Do agree with your latter statement though.

 

[WaveHunter]

19 hours ago, FredGallaher said:

WH, I don't believe you are a qualified Medical Professional ( possibly an medical experimenter) and should not be advising others. You have had frequent posts on this thread that lack a solid basis. Testosterone is a serious hormone and not to be taken lightly. See a MD who specializes in TRT or and endrocronologist. They will do baseline lab tests plus PSA, Free and Total Testosterone and Estrogen levels along with a physical exam.

Testosterone needs to be controlled and excess Free Testosterone freely converts to Estrogen which can cause problems. Estrogen is linked to fat storage and some cancers (esp prostrate cancer). 

Relying on Dr Google is not a smart approach.

As usual, you make inaccurate assumption about me, and make sarcastic and inflammatory comments about things I say.  Yes, you are correct that hormone therapy is serious business and should only be done under medical supervision.  What makes you think I don't adhere to that? 

 

Unlike me, you have made a number of absurd claims about testosterone therapy in various posts.  Some of your pseudo-scientific remarks on other testosterone threads have been absolutely ludicrous, and always you provide no science-based fact to back them up.  Instead you infer that you have a superior scientific background and that your word should therefore be good enough.

 

FYI, I have been under medically supervised TRT for over four years.  Unlike you, I am extremely well-informed on TRT through my well respected and knowledgeable endocrinologist.  His name is not "Dr. Google", and he is not a "wanna be" expert like you.

 

I have all appropriate blood tests conducted every three months, and so far, they have all been right on the money. 

 

When I share information about TRT here on this forum, I am sharing it primarily with like-minded and well-informed individuals who are already on TRT under a doctor's supervision, or with people who are considering supervised therapy.  I am sharing SCIENTIFIC FACT BASED information...ALWAYS!  Nowhere in my posts do I ever advocate unsupervised TRT.

 

None of your holy-than-thou, smug self-righteous comments help anyone.  They seem only designed to make yourself feel superior and good about yourself, at others' expense.

 

Please do me a big favor and stop checking my profile page almost daily to see what threads I'm involved with, and then going to those threads to post your vile, nasty comments. 

 

You do realize I can see your visits to my profile page, right?  t's really sort of creepy how you've been stalking me like that for months!  Have you nothing better to do with your life?

 

[WaveHunter]

On 9/18/2019 at 2:39 PM, FredGallaher said:

Your advice then should be limited to seeing a medical professional not how to buy and use this product. 

Again your verbose angry responses are only a reflection on who you are. I just don't want readers to be misinformed.

If you don't want readers to be misinformed, stop making unfounded remarks.

 

When I post information, it is ALWAYS science-based from reliable sources.  You, on the other hand, repeatedly make unsubstantiated claims, never backing them up with any reference to scientific studies or reliable sources.  

 

Yes, I get angry when people like you attack my posts, trying in vain to sound like they are the voice of authority when i fact they don't know what the hell they are talking about.

 

FYI, to prove that your assertion about sub-Q is wrong, here is one of MANY studies comparing the efficacy of sub-Q vs IM for TRT, and this one specifically explores serum levels:

 

Serum Testosterone Concentrations Remain Stable Between Injections in Patients Receiving Subcutaneous Testosterone

 

As for sharing my knowledge about TRT, who are you to judge what knowledge should or should not be shared?  What give you the right to be a self appointed censor of information?

 

We are all adults, capable of thinking intelligently and making our own decisions.  We are not ignorant children needing your brand of self righteous, ill-informed censorship that's based on inaccurate personal opinions, or just plain unsubstantiated nonsense.

 

Many who follow and participate in this thread have years of experience being on TRT, and are VERY knowledgeable, having gotten their information from our own doctors, and by learning everything we can on the subject.  Others are considering therapy and want to be as well informed as possible.  We share WELL FOUNDED information back and forth to help each other to better understand TRT.  None of us (except for you) profess to be recognized authorities on the subject.

 

Not every doctor who advises a patient on TRT is really that knowledgeable.  Some are very well versed but some are not.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with sharing our experiences with injection and dosing strategies, blood test results, where and how to purchase reasonably priced and authentic testosterone.  It is legal to purchase without an Rx, and considering that there are many pharmacies that sell counterfeit or underground Test, this information is helpful, if not vital for our well being.

 

If you are going to make authoritative comments and remarks, at least try and know what you are talking about, and back it up with referenced and reliable sources.