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Testosterone - Testoviron - Where to buy in CM

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On 4/27/2019 at 9:15 AM, heybruce said:

My otherwise healthy father had his first and final heart attack at age 69 because of high cholesterol. 

 

It seems you are taking Testoviron after consulting doctor.  That's fine.  However I would caution others against self-medicating, or seeking medical advice on a non-medical internet forum.

Agreed. One would be wise to also research the effects of testosterone therapy on the HPTA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothalamic–pituitary–gonadal_axis

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Posted (edited)
On 4/27/2019 at 11:15 PM, heybruce said:

My otherwise healthy father had his first and final heart attack at age 69 because of high cholesterol. 

 

It seems you are taking Testoviron after consulting doctor.  That's fine.  However I would caution others against self-medicating, or seeking medical advice on a non-medical internet forum.

Cholesterol always gets a bad rap as the cause of coronary disease, when in fact there is not really a causal relationship at all.  It is only an associative relationship.  In other words, people who have heart disease also tend to have high levels of cholesterol, and it is not necessarily that high cholesterol cause the disease.

 

Cholesterol is simply the body's response to fight inflammation.  It’s a response to repair damaged arterial walls caused by metabolic inflammation.  It’s sort of like the body’s band-aid.  It is the underlying inflammation that is the cause of disease, not cholesterol.  

 

Yet this myth persists.  It’s like saying that every time there is a house fire, firemen are on the scene.  Therefore, firemen must be causing house fires!

 

Metabolic inflammation causes cholesterol response which can lead to plaques that may lead to coronary disease.  The goal should be to address the underlying metabolic inflammation.

 

This inflammation is usually the result of poor nutrition, and no, I'm not saying that dietary cholesterol is the cause either.  There is no science based reason to believe that consumption of dietary cholesterol result in increased levels of indigenous cholesterol in the body.  In a normal, healthy individual, the body produces far more cholesterol than most people will consume from dietary sources.

 

The dietary sources inflammation are those foods that disrupt the metabolic hormonal balance, principally those foods that unnaturally raise insulin levels such as highly processed carbohydrates, and nutritional habits of eating from the moment you wake up until the time you go to bed (food grazing) so that insulin levels are continually at unnaturally high levels and eventually will lead to receptor insensitivity.  "metabolic syndrome" is the result.  Google the term to understand it better.

 

Fixing your diet is the remedy to Metabolic Syndrome.  Simple dietary changes can result in reduced inflammation and therefore reduced release of cholesterol to address the inflammation, and thus less likelihood of developing arterial plaques that can lead to coronary disease.  It's actually pretty simple when you think about it.

Edited by WaveHunter
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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

Cholesterol always gets a bad rap as the cause of coronary disease, when in fact there is not really a causal relationship at all.  It is only an associative relationship.  In other words, people who have heart disease also tend to have high levels of cholesterol, and it is not necessarily that high cholesterol cause the disease.

 

Cholesterol is simply the body's response to fight inflammation.  It’s a response to repair damaged arterial walls caused by metabolic inflammation.  It’s sort of like the body’s band-aid.  It is the underlying inflammation that is the cause of disease, not cholesterol.  

 

Yet this myth persists.  It’s like saying that every time there is a house fire, firemen are on the scene.  Therefore, firemen must be causing house fires!

 

 

If this is true please explain why:

 

1. People with homozygous FH (a mutation causing the LDL receptors that are responsible for removing cholesterol from the blood into the liver not to work) have massively high cholesterol from birth  (1200mg/dl or 30mM), and, untreated, get aortic atherosclerosis before puberty and die before 30 of sudden myocardial infarction.

 

2. FH homozygotes once treated by having simply having cholesterol physically removed from their blood weekly by  processes akin to dialysis (e.g. apheresis -their blood is run through columns that remove only LDL cholesterol leaving everything else intact, then returned) no longer die in their 30s, and angiography demonstrates the reduction and regression of the arterial lesions formed in their teens.

 

3. Drugs that work by completely different mechanisms whose only common feature is the end point of reduction in plasma cholesterol levels, have been shown in reliable large clinical trials to all reduce the risk and occurrence of coronary artery disease and stroke, including

 

(a) cholestyramine, a granular resin that when taken by mouth physically absorb bile acids (which are made of cholesterol) causing it to be excreted in the faeces, lowering blood cholesterol and heart disease occurrence

(b) statins, which inhibit the enzyme responsible for body cholesterol synthesis, and reduce blood cholesterol by 40 or 50%

(c) evolocumab, and other antibodies which work by binding specifically to a protein called PCKS9. This protein destroys LDL receptors and the antibody prevents it from working, increasing LDL receptor number and lowering plasma cholesterol, again with a concomitant reduction in arterial disease

(d) ezetimibe, a small molecule which inhibits Niemann Pick protein in the intestine. This protein's function is to actively reabsorb cholesterol from the gut and return it to plasma, increasing body cholesterol load. Ezetimibe stops it from doing this and so lowers plasma cholesterol, again with an additional proven reduction in cardiovascular events.

 

These observations that lowering cholesterol by a number of unrelated methods all result in reductions in vascular disease are only rationally explained by the hypothesis that cholesterol is directly causative.

 

Furthermore, though atherosclerosis is indeed an inflammatory disease, and so can be triggered and exacerbated by many inflammatory stimuli,  it is well understood how plasma LDL is it itself directly inflammatory and a primary cause of atherosclerosis.

 

In brief, LDL is transported in globules of plasma pinched off and carried through cells lining the artery wall.  Given the same volume, the more LDL you have in your blood the more is transported, and this is one simple reason why LDL concentration in the blood and severity of arterial disease are correlated.

 

LDL behind the cell wall of the artery is trapped by binding molecules, and oxidised (preventing both of these steps in animal models reduces atherosclerosis). Oxidised LDL is an inflammatory signaller: it attracts macrophages which engulf it to try to get rid of it, and this stimulates them to 1. release more inflammatory signals to attract more cells, and 2. die, full of cholesterol.

 

This in turn causes an inflammatory positive feedback loop: attracting more cells, more inflammatory signalling, more cholesterol engulfment, more cell death- the atherosclerotic lesion.

 

 

Atherosclerosis. 2008 Jun;198(2):247-55. doi: 10.1016/j.atherosclerosis.2008.02.009. Epub 2008 Feb 19.
Recommendations for the use of LDL apheresis.

Thompson GR1; HEART-UK LDL Apheresis Working Group.

 

J Clin Apher. 2005 Dec;20(4):252-5.
Long-term effects of LDL apheresis in patients with severe hypercholesterolemia.

Sachais BS1, Katz J, Ross J, Rader DJ.

 

The Lipid Research Clinics Coronary Primary Prevention Trial results. I. Reduction in incidence of coronary heart disease.

[No authors listed]

JAMA. 1984 Jan 20;251(3):351-64.

 

Am J Med. 2019 Jul 10. pii: S0002-9343(19)30564-9. doi: 10.1016/j.amjmed.2019.06.029. [Epub ahead of print]
Cholesterol lowering and stroke: no longer room for pleiotropic effects of statins - confirmation from PCSK9 inhibitor studies.

Salvatore T1, Morganti R2, Marchioli R3, De Caterina R4.
 

N Engl J Med. 2015 Jun 18;372(25):2387-97. doi: 10.1056/NEJMoa1410489. Epub 2015 Jun 3.
Ezetimibe Added to Statin Therapy after Acute Coronary Syndromes.

Cannon CP, Blazing MA, Giugliano RP, McCagg A, White JA, Theroux P, Darius H, Lewis BS, Ophuis TO, Jukema JW, De Ferrari GM, Ruzyllo W, De Lucca P, Im K, Bohula EA, Reist C, Wiviott SD, Tershakovec AM, Musliner TA, Braunwald E, Califf RM; IMPROVE-IT Investigators.
 

 

Edited by partington
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12 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

Cholesterol always gets a bad rap as the cause of coronary disease, when in fact there is not really a causal relationship at all.  It is only an associative relationship.  In other words, people who have heart disease also tend to have high levels of cholesterol, and it is not necessarily that high cholesterol cause the disease.

 

Cholesterol is simply the body's response to fight inflammation.  It’s a response to repair damaged arterial walls caused by metabolic inflammation.  It’s sort of like the body’s band-aid.  It is the underlying inflammation that is the cause of disease, not cholesterol.  

 

Yet this myth persists.  It’s like saying that every time there is a house fire, firemen are on the scene.  Therefore, firemen must be causing house fires!

 

Metabolic inflammation causes cholesterol response which can lead to plaques that may lead to coronary disease.  The goal should be to address the underlying metabolic inflammation.

 

This inflammation is usually the result of poor nutrition, and no, I'm not saying that dietary cholesterol is the cause either.  There is no science based reason to believe that consumption of dietary cholesterol result in increased levels of indigenous cholesterol in the body.  In a normal, healthy individual, the body produces far more cholesterol than most people will consume from dietary sources.

 

The dietary sources inflammation are those foods that disrupt the metabolic hormonal balance, principally those foods that unnaturally raise insulin levels such as highly processed carbohydrates, and nutritional habits of eating from the moment you wake up until the time you go to bed (food grazing) so that insulin levels are continually at unnaturally high levels and eventually will lead to receptor insensitivity.  "metabolic syndrome" is the result.  Google the term to understand it better.

 

Fixing your diet is the remedy to Metabolic Syndrome.  Simple dietary changes can result in reduced inflammation and therefore reduced release of cholesterol to address the inflammation, and thus less likelihood of developing arterial plaques that can lead to coronary disease.  It's actually pretty simple when you think about it.

My father, who exercised regularly, ate a healthy diet, maintained a healthy weight, and drank moderately, died of a heart attack at age 69 caused by a build up of cholesterol in the blood vessels around his heart. 

 

I posted that because kurtgruen stated that taking medically prescribed Testoviron resulted in very high cholesterol.   I made it clear that taking Testoviron when prescribed by a doctor is fine, but one should not self-medicate, one should always consult a doctor.

 

Are you stating that the high levels of cholesterol resulting from taking Testoviron are harmless and not a cause for concern?  Are you endorsing this kind of self-medication without consulting a doctor?

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, heybruce said:

My father, who exercised regularly, ate a healthy diet, maintained a healthy weight, and drank moderately, died of a heart attack at age 69 caused by a build up of cholesterol in the blood vessels around his heart. 

 

I posted that because kurtgruen stated that taking medically prescribed Testoviron resulted in very high cholesterol.   I made it clear that taking Testoviron when prescribed by a doctor is fine, but one should not self-medicate, one should always consult a doctor.

 

Are you stating that the high levels of cholesterol resulting from taking Testoviron are harmless and not a cause for concern?  Are you endorsing this kind of self-medication without consulting a doctor?

No, I’m not saying that unusually high levels of exogenous testosterone can’t lead to high levels of endogenous cholesterol, but the underlying cause of coronary disease will be what caused the high cholesterol, not the cholesterol itself.  In other words, the testosterone is the cause.

 

Neither do I deny that @partington is incorrect.  Any factor that leads to excessive endogenous levels of cholesterol can be associative to coronary disease, but it is those factors that precipitate the high cholesterol that are the actual “cause”.

 

For the vast majority of people who develop coronary disease, the actual underlying cause is excessive carbohydrates that ultimately leads to insulin receptor insensitivity, which in turn leads  to metabolic inflammation.  So, the underlying cause is actually excessive carbs.

 

My point is simply that the underlying cause for excessive endogenous cholesterol is what’s important.  Excessive cholesterol is only a symptom, not a cause.

 

The situation is similar to Diabetes type 2.  Sure, there are non-nutritional causes to this too, but the predominant causes are nutrition based.  Yet, doctors don’t treat it as such.  Rather, they view the cause as high blood sugar, and administer insulin as treatment.  In other words, they treat the symptom, not the actual underlying cause, and in the case of D-type 2, exogenous insulin only exacerbates the problem.  It may address the symptom in the short term, but the patient only gets sicker in the long term.  It’s like giving alcohol to an alcoholic.

Edited by WaveHunter
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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

 

Neither do I deny that @partington is incorrect.  Any factor that leads to excessive endogenous levels of cholesterol can be associative to coronary disease, but it is those factors that precipitate the high cholesterol that are the actual “cause”.

 

For the vast majority of people who develop coronary disease, the actual underlying cause is excessive carbohydrates that ultimately leads to insulin receptor insensitivity, which in turn leads  to metabolic inflammation.  So, the underlying cause is actually excessive carbs.

 

 

This is transparently faulty logic.

 

If reducing cholesterol reduces heart disease, then cholesterol is the cause.

 

If you have too much cholesterol because, for example, your LDL receptors don't work, then physically removing the cholesterol does not make your LDL receptors work again, but it does prevent the accelerated heart disease that occurs if you don't remove the cholesterol.  

 

Therefore it is not the factor that precipitates the high cholesterol, but the cholesterol itself. This is not "association" as you claimed, but causation. Contrary to  your earlier incorrect analogy, cholesterol is an arsonist, not a fireman.

 

I think you are riding so enthusiastically on a hobby horse that it is preventing you thinking straight.

Edited by partington
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12 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

No, I’m not saying that unusually high levels of exogenous testosterone can’t lead to high levels of endogenous cholesterol, but the underlying cause of coronary disease will be what caused the high cholesterol, not the cholesterol itself.  In other words, the testosterone is the cause.

 

Neither do I deny that @partington is incorrect.  Any factor that leads to excessive endogenous levels of cholesterol can be associative to coronary disease, but it is those factors that precipitate the high cholesterol that are the actual “cause”.

 

For the vast majority of people who develop coronary disease, the actual underlying cause is excessive carbohydrates that ultimately leads to insulin receptor insensitivity, which in turn leads  to metabolic inflammation.  So, the underlying cause is actually excessive carbs.

 

My point is simply that the underlying cause for excessive endogenous cholesterol is what’s important.  Excessive cholesterol is only a symptom, not a cause.

 

The situation is similar to Diabetes type 2.  Sure, there are non-nutritional causes to this too, but the predominant causes are nutrition based.  Yet, doctors don’t treat it as such.  Rather, they view the cause as high blood sugar, and administer insulin as treatment.  In other words, they treat the symptom, not the actual underlying cause, and in the case of D-type 2, exogenous insulin only exacerbates the problem.  It may address the symptom in the short term, but the patient only gets sicker in the long term.  It’s like giving alcohol to an alcoholic.

Keeping in mind that this is a topic about testosterone/testoviron, do you agree that taking testoviron, which apparently leads to high cholesterol, without consulting a doctor is potentially dangerous?  That was the point of my post.

 

Whether high cholesterol causes heart disease or simply indicates a condition that causes heart disease is not the current topic.

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Only problem I have had with it is beating the hell out of people for nothing a day or two after the shot.

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Testovirine by Beyer is better but for some reason no longer available in a box of 20, only single amps, 220-250 baht each 

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10 minutes ago, BestB said:

Testovirine by Beyer is better but for some reason no longer available in a box of 20, only single amps, 220-250 baht each 

 

Where?

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12 minutes ago, amexpat said:

 

Where?

Can not help in CM but in Pattaya most pharmacies have Beyer singles now. If you in Pattaya can tell you precise locations and price 😄

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Posted (edited)
On 7/29/2019 at 4:37 PM, partington said:

This is transparently faulty logic.

 

If reducing cholesterol reduces heart disease, then cholesterol is the cause.

 

If you have too much cholesterol because, for example, your LDL receptors don't work, then physically removing the cholesterol does not make your LDL receptors work again, but it does prevent the accelerated heart disease that occurs if you don't remove the cholesterol.  

 

Therefore it is not the factor that precipitates the high cholesterol, but the cholesterol itself. This is not "association" as you claimed, but causation. Contrary to  your earlier incorrect analogy, cholesterol is an arsonist, not a fireman.

 

I think you are riding so enthusiastically on a hobby horse that it is preventing you thinking straight.

Yes!  Reducing excessive endogenous cholesterol reduces possibility of arterial wall plaques that can lead to coronary disease!  BUT that doesn’t make cholesterol the cause of coronary disease.  

 

The body’s production of unusually high levels of cholesterol that can lead to arterial plaques is only a response to metabolic inflammation that causes damage to arterial walls.  Therefore metabolic inflammation is the real underlying cause!

 

The conventional wisdom such as you seem to adhere to, is to ignore the underlying cause (metabolic inflammation) and only treat the symptom (high endogenous cholesterol) with drugs like Statins, OR subscribe to the idea that excessive dietary cholesterol causes high serum levels of cholesterol (which is patently untrue).

 

Metabolic inflammation is the real culprit that leads to high serum cholesterol which can lead to arterial plaques.  Fix the underlying cause of that inflammation and endogenous levels of cholesterol return to normal.

 

Metabolic inflammation is caused by hormonal imbalances, and can have many root causes, but for the majority of people with preventable coronary disease, the root cause is simply poor nutrition that leads to obesity.

 

In the case being discussed by @heybruce, high levels of exogenous testosterone (TRT) can also be an underlying cause...again, anything that leads to metabolic hormonal imbalance cause an inflammatory response.

 

Its a major problem with medicine today; ignoring the underlying cause of disease, and only treating symptoms.  High levels of endogenous levels of cholesterol (what the body produces) may be the cause of arterial plaques, but it’s the underlying cause of what’s making the body produce all that cholesterol that is the true root cause...TREAT THE UNDERLYING CAUSE NOT THE SYMPTOM.

Edited by WaveHunter
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On 7/28/2019 at 10:21 AM, heybruce said:

My father, who exercised regularly, ate a healthy diet, maintained a healthy weight, and drank moderately, died of a heart attack at age 69 caused by a build up of cholesterol in the blood vessels around his heart. 

 

I posted that because kurtgruen stated that taking medically prescribed Testoviron resulted in very high cholesterol.   I made it clear that taking Testoviron when prescribed by a doctor is fine, but one should not self-medicate, one should always consult a doctor.

 

Are you stating that the high levels of cholesterol resulting from taking Testoviron are harmless and not a cause for concern?  Are you endorsing this kind of self-medication without consulting a doctor?

Niacin can reduce 'bad cholesterol'.

https://www.webmd.com/diet/supplement-guide-niacin#1

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, hyku1147 said:

Niacin can reduce 'bad cholesterol'.

https://www.webmd.com/diet/supplement-guide-niacin#1

I know I'll receive a lot of flack but many people are missing the big picture of the relationship of cholesterol to heart disease.

 

The idea that cholesterol is evil is very much engrained in most people's minds. But this is a very harmful myth.  Cholesterol is neither good or bad.  Cholesterol is a vital component of every cell membrane; We would not be here without it.  Cholesterol is a precursor to all of the steroid hormones. You cannot make estrogen, testosterone, cortisone and a host of other vital hormones without cholesterol.  If your cholesterol level is too low you will not be able to use the sun to generate sufficient levels of vitamin D.

 

The release of cholesterol by the liver serves another vital purpose.  It is your body's natural response to invaders it perceives as threats. If you get a cut for instance, the process of inflammation is what allows you to heal.  If your arteries are damaged, a very similar process occurs inside of your body, except that a "scar" in your artery occurs, known as plaque.  THIS is where the danger to heart health originates.  Cholesterol did not cause the initial damage to the arteries; factors that led to the inflammatory response are responsible!

 

Cholesterol comes into the picture now because, in order to replace your damaged cells, it is necessary since new cells can not be formed without it.  So if you have damaged cells that need to be replaced, your liver will be notified to make more cholesterol and release it into your bloodstream. This is a deliberate process that takes place in order for your body to produce new, healthy cells.

 

The body's production of cholesterol is therefore a healthy response. The trouble occurs when the underlying inflammation is chronic.  The repeated formation of new plaques, along with the thickening of the blood and continuing constriction of blood vessels can indeed increase your risk of high blood pressure and heart attacks. 

 

Factors responsible for the underlying inflammation should be the main concern, especially since many of these factors are preventable, most notable, poor nutrtion!  The most important blood test should be a C-reactive protein (CRP) blood test. CRP level is used as a marker of inflammation in your arteries.

 

So, if you look at the big picture, factors that led to the inflammatory response are the underlying caused of heart attacks.  Inflammation and the resultant release of cholesterol by the liver are simply the body's response to repair that damage.  It's just logical that one should be more concerned with the underlying cause, rather than try to alter the body's response to it with cholesterol lowering drugs.

 

The American Heart Association updated their guidelines in 2004, lowering the recommended level of "LDL cholesterol" from 130 to less than 100, or even less than 70 for patients at very high risk.  

 

In order to achieve these outrageous and dangerously low targets, requires the use of multiple cholesterol-lowering drugs.  So, these new guidelines instantly increased the market for these dangerous drugs.  Now, with testing children's cholesterol levels, they're increasing their market even more!  THAT is where the cholesterol "myth" comes from.

 

There are no such things as "good" or "bad" cholesterol.  LDL and HDL are lipoproteins -- fats combined with proteins. There is only one cholesterol.  Cholesterol is just cholesterol!  It combines with other fats and proteins to be carried through the bloodstream, since fat and watery blood do not mix very well.  Fatty substances therefore must be shuttled to and from body tissues and cells using proteins. LDL and HDL are forms of proteins and are far from being just cholesterol.

 

LDL particles (the so-called bad cholesterol) come in many sizes.  Large LDL particles are not a problem. Only the so-called small dense LDL particles can potentially be a problem, because they can squeeze through the lining of the arteries and if they oxidize they can cause damage and inflammation. 

 

The key to good heart health is to eliminate the underlying causes of inflammatory response, NOT to alter the body's natural production of cholesterol with drugs!

 


 

Edited by WaveHunter

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There was a shortage.  But they are available again.  Check out the Pharma Choice locations.  on Suthep Rd and Canal road.  Both were available a month ago.  Although the 20 amp boxed are now gone for good, you have to buy 1amp at a time - but same Bayer Testoviron - just new packaging 😞

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