For Thailand’s sake, let’s move beyond Thaksin

[holy cow cm]

3 hours ago, Spidey said:

Extremely biased view. Luckily no one reading it will be voting. My wife and all her family will be voting Pheu Thai, as are virtually every other Thai that I've talked to. They will win by a landslide.

 

All to no avail though as the army senate will, by hook or by crook, install Prayut as prime minister. A complete sham.

Do you really think the results will come out that way after 30 or 50 or 150 days of their deliberation of counting them?

[OneMoreFarang]

It's obvious in Thailand, the UK, the USA and many other places.

Give uneducated and uninformed idiots the right to vote and it's almost inevitable that they will <deleted> it up.

 

[MisterPenguin]

On 3/18/2019 at 9:53 AM, OneMoreFarang said:

It's obvious in Thailand, the UK, the USA and many other places.

Give uneducated and uninformed idiots the right to vote and it's almost inevitable that they will <deleted> it up.

 

Indeed. Roger Waters expressed that well, though in another context: "Give any one species enough rope and they'll <deleted> it up.

 

Meanwhile in the land of the Dreaming, It's nearly popcorn time, the orchestra's tuning up and Apirat's getting himself all hot and bothered. Should be quite a show.

Someone should start a sweepstake on who makes the most inane/bizarre/lame comment. Should be lots to choose from, and a fun time will be had by all.

 

 

[JAG]

4 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Yes, I still follow the news everyday. And there is no question that our current rulers are also not exactly clean.

And I am aware of the fact that we read in the news only part of what is going on.

 

All in all I still think what Thaksin did was a lot worse than what the current people in charge are doing. Part of it is probably also the fact that Thaksin just had to rub it in all the time. It was not enough that he was corrupt and it was not enough that he preferred people who voted for him. He had to tell everybody all the time that he gets away with his crimes and he was proud to work only for the Thais who voted for him.

I don't think Prayut or anybody of the current crowd is even half as bad as Thaksin.

I think you are wrong, for this very simple reason. Irrespective of the degree of corruption involved ( and personally I tend to the view that the current bunch are at least as bad, if not worse than the various Thaksin regimes); Thaksin's governments  were put into power by a free election, he used the ballot box to keep himself in power, and he was ejected from power by the military and the establishment they are beholden to when, on three occasions, he either had (once) won re-election or (twice) looked very much like doing so. By contrast the current regime seized power by a coup, in the middle of a disputed but entirely legal election. There is evidence that they were party to that disruption. They have kept office for longer than the period allowed for an elected government, and have maintained themselves in power, and surpressed opposition by force, threat of force, and various decrees. They have employed an appointed "rubber stamp" parliament to provide a veneer of legality to massive expenditure on projects which largely benefit themselves (the military) and those they serve, and have concerned themselves little with the needs of the general population. Finally, they have created and are currently presiding over an electoral system which is openly designed to ensure that any party or faction which wins a mandate (especially Thaksin's faction) is frustrated, the voters are cheated, and they retain power. Elements within their power group have made it quite clear if, unexpectedly, a government not to their liking emerges from this election, then they will stage another coup.

 

That is an infinitely greater degree of corruption.

[robblok]

1 hour ago, Eric Loh said:

Thaksin was indeed corrupted and fortunately he didn't get away with it. Convicted, exiled and half his fortune confiscated. How then did the establishment, junta and their aligned politicians get away with so much corruption and blood on their hands. You make a weak and prejudice case as always.   

He did get away with it he is still free and still influencing the PTP anyone thinking that he pulled his hands off PTP control is not a realist. He got punished (marginally) but yes its more then others have.

 

Anyway the nation was totally clear there was a democracy in place when he was convicted and his party was in power. What they forgot are all the other cases against Thaksin. The man is a crook and we would be far better off without him. Now if he could take Suthep and Prayut and Prawit with him and Charlem and Yattuporn with him for retirement then Thai politics would be rid of some of the fossils holding it back.

[soalbundy]

4 hours ago, ezzra said:

Thais don't give a hoot for the man himself, only that in his times, there were lots of money around, freebees, grants, debts moratoriums, to tunes of billions, specially at elections times, people had money and the economy was flourishing because of the huge amounts coming from the government most of it in shady dealings, and THAT what the Thai people want and crave, for them who's the politician that will throw more money their way, he's the right man for the job...

At least he listened to them and took them seriously, every other politician ignored the yokals, TS has become the yardstick to be measured by.

[Kru Baa]

The only reason they are finally going to have elections is because they are now ready to rig the results and Pryut will be "elected" (appointed)

[Eric Loh]

10 minutes ago, robblok said:

He did get away with it he is still free and still influencing the PTP anyone thinking that he pulled his hands off PTP control is not a realist. He got punished (marginally) but yes its more then others have.

 

Anyway the nation was totally clear there was a democracy in place when he was convicted and his party was in power. What they forgot are all the other cases against Thaksin. The man is a crook and we would be far better off without him. Now if he could take Suthep and Prayut and Prawit with him and Charlem and Yattuporn with him for retirement then Thai politics would be rid of some of the fossils holding it back.

He is still free because none of the countries that he went and resided believed that his crimes were not politically influenced and thus didn't followed the extradition demands by the Thailand  government. Most see the 2006 coup as class conflicts between the rural poor who supported Thaksin and the urban elite who supported the military. 

 

Thaksin cases were investigated by the coup government appointed Assets Examination Committee. Its finding lead to the court rulings against Thaksin - 2 years imprisonment and confiscation of 40 B Baht for being 'unusually rich'. Far better off for him to be given a trial again as suggested by King Prajadhipok Institute and Thanathorn. He should be put away by non partisan judiciary and the coup leaders trialed for corruption and treason. Then Thai politics will be better off. 

[monkfish]

4 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

It's always sad when people compare these cases. It's like comparing a mass murderer with a guy who hit someone once with a fist. Yes, they both did wrong but on a totally different scale.

Thaksin was not only super corrupt, he also didn't even try to hide it. I read the news every day when he was in power and I always thought: How can he get away with that, it's so obvious.

Yea sure Thaksin was convicted of "Conflict Of Interest" coz his wife bought some land at auction so yea that's similar to mass murder in it?
 

[Mexlark]

General elections in Thailand are a bit like Christmas - a mid-winter orgy of gift-giving. The minimum wage might well increase, but that really is about all we can expect from our so-called seniors. We really can't expect Thailand to buck the global trend towards dumb populist politics and economic non-sustainability. Enjoy the festive season, .... while it lasts.

[Awa Shuen]

The real democracy is letting the people vote for who they like. No matter who corrupts the most, if people like them, they voted, if voted for a wrong person, they will see the karma later on and not to vote for that candidate again in the next election. Thaksin's corruption was serious but the others don't seems to be cleaner than him. I can't deny the fact that Thais are not quite ready for democracy but this is what it is, too many farmers and poor people in the country, they don't know what's politics, they only want to survive, nothing wrong if they vote for someone can ONLY make their life a bit easier, who cares about who corrupt the most.

[OneMoreFarang]

10 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

He is still free because none of the countries that he went and resided believed that his crimes were not politically influenced and thus didn't followed the extradition demands by the Thailand  government. Most see the 2006 coup as class conflicts between the rural poor who supported Thaksin and the urban elite who supported the military.

Is that what is happening?

Countries have interests, not friends.

It's easy to understand that lots of countries don't want to get involved in Thai politics. If they would arrest Thaksin maybe the current government would be happy - but even that is not sure. But if Thaksin and his cronies come back to power he will for sure retaliate. Nobody wants to get involved in this mess.

[robblok]

12 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

He is still free because none of the countries that he went and resided believed that his crimes were not politically influenced and thus didn't followed the extradition demands by the Thailand  government. Most see the 2006 coup as class conflicts between the rural poor who supported Thaksin and the urban elite who supported the military. 

 

Thaksin cases were investigated by the coup government appointed Assets Examination Committee. Its finding lead to the court rulings against Thaksin - 2 years imprisonment and confiscation of 40 B Baht for being 'unusually rich'. Far better off for him to be given a trial again as suggested by King Prajadhipok Institute and Thanathorn. He should be put away by non partisan judiciary and the coup leaders trialed for corruption and treason. Then Thai politics will be better off. 

I agree give him a trial again but for all his cases. Wanna bet he would be a too scared because we all know he is guilty for far more then just that case. The guy is so dirty and it can be proven. Not innocent not political (as in a made up case). So I would love a re trail for all his cases and him waiting it off in Thailand. This is as likely as the Prawit getting tried. They are on par both untouchable and dirty.

[robblok]

Just now, OneMoreFarang said:

Is that what is happening?

Countries have interests, not friends.

It's easy to understand that lots of countries don't want to get involved in Thai politics. If they would arrest Thaksin maybe the current government would be happy - but even that is not sure. But if Thaksin and his cronies come back to power he will for sure retaliate. Nobody wants to get involved in this mess.

Correct, Eric likes to pretend countries care. They don't besides otherwise they might be at risk too. We all know how vindictive Thaksin is.

[OneMoreFarang]

6 minutes ago, monkfish said:

Yea sure Thaksin was convicted of "Conflict Of Interest" coz his wife bought some land at auction so yea that's similar to mass murder in it?

Yes, I almost forgot, Thaksin is also responsible for the murder of 2500 suspected drug dealers and users

Maybe you should educate yourself a little about all the ongoing court cases against Thaksin. He did a lot more than sign a paper for his wife.

But then again I don't expect that you will educate yourself. Staying ignorant makes it so much easier to support the fugitive criminal.

[Mexlark]

It's worth noting that Thailand is not the only country in this region staring down a dead-end. Cambodia, Malaysia, Myanmar. One now needs to be a bit more imaginative to succeed than just being yet another Hun-Sen clone.

[Eric Loh]

10 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Is that what is happening?

Countries have interests, not friends.

It's easy to understand that lots of countries don't want to get involved in Thai politics. If they would arrest Thaksin maybe the current government would be happy - but even that is not sure. But if Thaksin and his cronies come back to power he will for sure retaliate. Nobody wants to get involved in this mess.

Lots of maybe and lots of poor understanding of the extradition legal process. Maybe you really don't know much except blindly justifying the junta that you support. 

[Eric Loh]

19 minutes ago, robblok said:

I agree give him a trial again but for all his cases. Wanna bet he would be a too scared because we all know he is guilty for far more then just that case. The guy is so dirty and it can be proven. Not innocent not political (as in a made up case). So I would love a re trail for all his cases and him waiting it off in Thailand. This is as likely as the Prawit getting tried. They are on par both untouchable and dirty.

Just so funny that you brought out Prawit. He was not even investigated; how so can he put on trial, See the irony. Don;t think so from you. 

[monkfish]

6 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Yes, I almost forgot, Thaksin is also responsible for the murder of 2500 suspected drug dealers and users

Maybe you should educate yourself a little about all the ongoing court cases against Thaksin. He did a lot more than sign a paper for his wife.

But then again I don't expect that you will educate yourself. Staying ignorant makes it so much easier to support the fugitive criminal.

I don't think so was he found guilty for the murder of 2500 drug dealers?
Not even his worst enemies complain about that because the situation at the time was so bad.
The other cases will all eventually go away and by the way he was allowed to leave Thailand same as his sister was,

[Spidey]

29 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Yes, I almost forgot, Thaksin is also responsible for the murder of 2500 suspected drug dealers and users

Maybe you should educate yourself a little about all the ongoing court cases against Thaksin. He did a lot more than sign a paper for his wife.

But then again I don't expect that you will educate yourself. Staying ignorant makes it so much easier to support the fugitive criminal.

If you can put your obvious and inexplicable hatred for Taxin to one side, think of it this way:

 

The one thing that Thai politics lacks is democracy. Until it has true democracy it will never move forward. However democracy isn't perfect, you have to take the good with the bad. The American people elected a president who has corruptly enriched himself and is a blatant racist who has isolated America from the rest of the world. The American people's choice, up to them. The UK has voted to leave the EU, a move that could quite possibly bankrupt the country. Their choice, up to them.

 

The majority of Thais want Taxin in power, their choice, up to them. You may strongly disagree with their choice but that's democracy (and you don't get a vote anyway).

 

 

[Mexlark]

2 minutes ago, monkfish said:

I don't think so was he found guilty for the murder of 2500 drug dealers?
Not even his worst enemies complain about that because the situation at the time was so bad.
The other cases will all eventually go away and by the way he was allowed to leave Thailand same as his sister was,

But is the situation really any better now? He basically encouraged certain people to shoot a whole load of minor dealers in the back because someone had been leading his son into trouble. Pure spite really. That also had the effect of preventing any investigation of much bigger and more important investors in narco-biz (who are heavily embedded in the local elite). All in all, a shoddy piece of politics.

 

Agreed, no one here really cares a toss about this issue. Likewise, they don't really care a toss about numerous other major Thaksin policy FUs: the deep South, to name just one.

[robblok]

14 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

Just so funny that you brought out Prawit. He was not even investigated; how so can he put on trial, See the irony. Don;t think so from you. 

 

We are already talking about an imaginary situation where Thaksin comes back, given his cowardice that wont happen, its as unlikely as the imaginary situation of putting Prawit on trial. So I don't really get it why is it strange to compare 2 imaginary situations that are really unlikely to happen.

 

You find it funny that i imagine that Prawit gets on trial but at the same time you imagine Thaksin to come back to face justice. Both things are real unlikely. That is why we are imagining it. Your imagination also lacks basis in the law as does mine. So why is it that what i imagine has to hold up to standards while your day dreams do not ? Bias maybe.

[Spidey]

3 minutes ago, Mexlark said:

But is the situation really any better now? He basically encouraged certain people to shoot a whole load of minor dealers in the back because someone had been leading his son into trouble.

And since he was deposed, the drug problem in Thailand has spiralled out of control. He did not one tenth of what Duterte has done and even with a free and fair election, he would be re-elected tomorrow.

 

Desperate times call for desperate measures. There's a lot to be said for popping a cap into the back of a drug dealer's head and asking questions later.

[NCC1701A]

[OneMoreFarang]

10 minutes ago, Spidey said:

If you can put your obvious and inexplicable hatred for Taxin to one side, think of it this way:

 

The one thing that Thai politics lacks is democracy. Until it has true democracy it will never move forward. However democracy isn't perfect, you have to take the good with the bad. The American people elected a president who has corruptly enriched himself and is a blatant racist who has isolated America from the rest of the world. The American people's choice, up to them. The UK has voted to leave the EU, a move that could quite possibly bankrupt the country. Their choice, up to them.

 

The majority of Thais want Taxin in power, their choice, up to them. You may strongly disagree with their choice but that's democracy (and you don't get a vote anyway).

I get your point. But for me democracy is not in itself something holy which must be upheld no matter what.

Personally I like if a country has a capable and just government.

 

Do you think a democratically elected government which contains corrupt criminals is better than any other government only because they were democratically elected? Personally I don't think so.

The majority of people are uneducated and best case average intelligence and most of them don't understand what is happening - even if they would try to understand it.

If a political party would promise free handout and no taxes for everybody lots of people would vote for them. And then the people would be surprised that the state can't work without taxes.

 

We need a good government and at least I don't care if the stupid masses voted for it or not.

[monkfish]

8 minutes ago, Mexlark said:

But is the situation really any better now? He basically encouraged certain people to shoot a whole load of minor dealers in the back because someone had been leading his son into trouble. Pure spite really. That also had the effect of preventing any investigation of much bigger and more important investors in narco-biz (who are heavily embedded in the local elite). All in all, a shoddy piece of politics.

 

Agreed, no one here really cares a toss about this issue. Likewise, they don't really care a toss about numerous other major Thaksin policy FUs: the deep South, to name just one.

Do you think the drug dealers were not armed and didn't kill people?

[OneMoreFarang]

5 minutes ago, NCC1701A said:

And somehow some people think they represent the poor. 555

[Mexlark]

There probably is NO 'beyond Thaksin'. We're stuck with this motley crew, on a ship of fools, for eternity. The albatross never comes within shooting distance, and - in any case - there are no willing sharpshooters on board.

[Longcut]

5 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

It's always sad when people compare these cases. It's like comparing a mass murderer with a guy who hit someone once with a fist. Yes, they both did wrong but on a totally different scale.

Thaksin was not only super corrupt, he also didn't even try to hide it. I read the news every day when he was in power and I always thought: How can he get away with that, it's so obvious.

But, and yes a but. Thaksin was elected. Unlike this clown that thinks the country loves him. He is a bigger criminal in the eyes of many Thais. He overthrew a democratically elected government.

[Eric Loh]

11 minutes ago, Mexlark said:

But is the situation really any better now? He basically encouraged certain people to shoot a whole load of minor dealers in the back because someone had been leading his son into trouble. Pure spite really. That also had the effect of preventing any investigation of much bigger and more important investors in narco-biz (who are heavily embedded in the local elite). All in all, a shoddy piece of politics.

 

Agreed, no one here really cares a toss about this issue. Likewise, they don't really care a toss about numerous other major Thaksin policy FUs: the deep South, to name just one.

Not really spite but concern from the highest institution that drug was too rampant in a speech in 2002. The phrase 'war on drugs' was not coined by Thaksin. Even Privy council called for a special court to deal with drug dealers. That was the depth of the seriousness of drugs at that time. As you said. lets move on and beyond him.