Jump to content

Switching from bank method to income method


Recommended Posts

On ‎3‎/‎19‎/‎2019 at 9:02 PM, onera1961 said:

1. Click Send Money

2. Enter Amount. Click Continue

3. Click Recipient (Myself)

4. Select Reason

5. Review confirm and continue

6. Click Cancel Transfer. Now You have not paid the money but the transfer has a no. You can later click Choose How to Pay (Green Button) after transferwise has confirmed coding. 

 

 

14 hours ago, Pib said:

Well, that's good to know.  I figured after a transfer was cancelled it was dead....couldn't be revived...dead & buried....have to initiate a new transfer.  

 

And just to confirm, you have personally done it this way...done a 100% test?  Also, is it best to email/call/online chat when requesting the tagging?  Typically how long does it take to get confirmation of tagging the way you been contacting TW.  Damn, I sound like a kid with a thousand questions. ????  Thanks.

After 5, I delay the transfer from my UK bank to TW, until they confirm the 'tag', then I complete the second leg of the transfer. I never click 'Cancel Transfer'.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just walked thru the 6 step process described above...but modified it a little as described below and as to why.  Step 6 was different.

 

Since I never "wire/push" the money to Transferwise as that would require me to Wire funds to them which would cost around $20-$25 USD ballbark depending on person's US bank fee to do a wire transfer.  If needing to do that using Transferwise may not be the best/cheapest way to transfer money due to that added fee.  Now there will be some folks who have a premium/high net worth account with their bank where they get some domestic/international wires for free but the great majority of folks will be paying a wire fee and may even have to call/fax a doc to initiate a wire...in other cases it can be done online depending on your US bank.    Wires in the US are generally not cheap and always can't be done online.

 

Instead, I use an "ACH Debit (Bank)" (not to be confused with Debit Card) which "pulls" the funds from your US bank account for a low TW fee.  I expect the great majority of US folks doing a USD-THB use the ACH Debit (Bank) method to fund their transfers.  The ACH money transfer system is the main funds transfer system used in the US...the primary method used to move money between banks/individuals/pay bills/govt benefit payments like social security/etc....it's the 800 pound guerrilla of funds transfer systems used in the US    

 

So, my modification of the steps was right after completing Step 5 was to stop...not go to the next step of funding the transfer where I pick the funding method....would select ACH Debit (Bank) and fund the transfer that way.  Without following thru with the funding step the transfer is basically on-hold pending funding. That is where I would stop and then contact Transferwise with the transfer number and ask for the tagging to occur.  Then once getting the confirmation back from Transferwise that the tagging is done....which someone said takes about a day....I would then go back in and fund the transfer using ACH Debit (Bank).

 

Now in this test I had no intention of asking for tag and pay afterwards so I then just cancelled the transfer.   With the transfer now cancelled, I wanted to see if it could be brought back to life with the same transfer number....and it couldn't. 

 

All that was offered was a green button to "Repeat" the cancelled transfer which just starts a "new" transfer using the same basic info as in the cancelled transfer although you can change amount to be sent, etc., but it's a new transfer...will have a new transfer number.  No green button offered to Pay in a cancelled transaction for me...only a Repeat Transfer green button.   See below.

 

So, at least for my account/Transferwise accounts registered as a US account step 1-5 work as described, but do not Cancel the transfer.  Instead, stop after Step 5, contact Transferwise to tag the transfer, and then once getting it tagged then complete the funding process where you could then do the ACH Debit (Bank) funding.  

 

image.png.de7ff85cf45a4ca342f81a4afef1a214.png

 

 

 

 

 

 

  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Tanoshi said:

So in the US your bank charge to transfer to another local account within the US?

Generally, No.  Most banks do not charge an ACH sending/transfer fee....only the most fee-evil banks like Bank of America for example may charge a low transfer fee....like unless something has changed BoA charges $3 for a 3 day transfer...next day would be $10...same day wire would be $25.  I move money between my various US bank accounts all the time via ACH for "free" via debit/pull or push/credit as I only use non-fee-evil banks. 

 

But I have ACH transfer links already setup which were generally set up using the trial/micro deposit methods where I say I want to setup an ACH transfer link to another account....it will send a couple of micro deposits to that account....you then need to obtain those amounts and provide them back to your bank which proves to them you own the account and then they activate that transfer link for future use.

 

Generally ACH transfer links are used for transfer between your own accounts at different banks.  But "some" banks, like USAA, do allow you to setup an ACH transfer link to an account where the trial deposit method is not used....buy many banks don't allow that method....they require the trial deposit method.  And some (not many) banks may require you to mail in a form to set up the transfer link.

 

Instead, you need to see if you can setup a "Bill Payment" generally meant for reoccurring payments like credit cards, electric bills, etc., where you bank receives the bill from the biller to your account and then you can pay it.  And sometimes you can "push" a payment without any bill....like I use to do in pushing  payment into a credit card account where I had done a cash advance....I pushed the payment on the same day of the cash advance to prevent any interest charge. 

 

And the ACH transfer system is a "batch" system where a bank usually only sends ACH transfers once a day if you meet their cutoff time for that day which is usually in the afternoon sometime.  Miss that cutoff time and it will not begin its trek until the next day. Then it begins the ACH trek/settlement between banks that generally takes several days....sometimes around 4 days....with some banks around 1-2 days....a lot depends on how fast your sending bank acts on your ACH transfer request...no standard settlement time due to how different banks handle the settlement...some faster or slower than others.  

 

So, using the ACH Push or Bill Payment method with Transferwise may or may not be doable depending on your US bank and if possible it will take several days to reach/settle with Transferwise.

 

However, in Transferwise's case they charge a fee in doing the ACH debit/pull.  Up until 8 Mar 19 they charged a flat 0.15% ACH fee but starting 8 Mar with their fee structure change for USD transfers that fee went to around 0.2% although their Other fee went down....overall their fee costs went down....but the ACH transfer portion went up.

 

Below is a snapshot from Transferwise talking the ACH "Push" method where you will need to send the money to them verus just letting Transferwise pull the funds. 

 

image.png.b04f5d54cd824555d6f315532efb1d05.png

 

 

Edited by Pib
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Contemplating biting the bullet here. Arghhh! 

Will have 6 months of monthly international transfers in excess of 65K come renewal in September. However that is two payments of pension and investment income and still no clear indication from immigration on how they are treating this combination.

 

I am guessing employing the services of an agent for this first attempt at monthly income renewal would probably take a lot of the heat out of the situation, .

 

Your thoughts?

Link to comment
Share on other sites



Contemplating biting the bullet here. Arghhh! 
Will have 6 months of monthly international transfers in excess of 65K come renewal in September. However that is two payments of pension and investment income and still no clear indication from immigration on how they are treating this combination.
 
I am guessing employing the services of an agent for this first attempt at monthly income renewal would probably take a lot of the heat out of the situation, .
 
Your thoughts?


Nothing to lose by applying first, if that fails head to an agency
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/19/2019 at 3:59 PM, JohnnyBD said:

Thanks for the advice. I was trying to delay making anymore transfers right now as I have enough to live off of until Sep. My goal was to reduce the total amount I have here. So, I just need to decide whether to do option 1; stay on retirement 800k with the option of spending down 400k after 3 mths and not worry about making monthly transfers, or do option 2, start transfers now renewing with income method, then worry about spending down any excess afterwards, or option 3, switch to extension based on marriage with 400k in bank method where I only have to keep 400k in savings and can then spend down any excess and not have to make monthly transfers. The only issue is, I rent from a Leasing company and I'm not sure if they own my unit, so I don't know how hard it will be to get the proper paperwork from them for the marriage extension. I guess better to start making the 65k transfers now so I will have all options available to choose from in Sep. Thanks again...

I would think that you should start depositing the 65,000 baht to establish a full year of deposits. At the same time I would keep the 800,000 baht in the bank for 3 months. After 3 months I don’t think it matters what your bank balance is. It can go below 400,000. You will have met your obligations for the last extension and will meet the criteria for the next. It seems worthwhile to ask Immigration about this plan. It will free up a lot of money for you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Thailand said:

Contemplating biting the bullet here. Arghhh! 

Will have 6 months of monthly international transfers in excess of 65K come renewal in September. However that is two payments of pension and investment income and still no clear indication from immigration on how they are treating this combination.

 

I am guessing employing the services of an agent for this first attempt at monthly income renewal would probably take a lot of the heat out of the situation, .

 

Your thoughts?

Personally I think it will be refused.

If you had 9 months, since January, they possibly may have shown leniency.

Other than for very first time extension applicants, they appear to be looking for 12 monthly overseas transfers even now.

Perhaps the example in the orders doesn't help as it backdates before the order was even announced. TIT.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Pib

Local transfers between UK banks are free.

I simply complete the first step of the transfer, TW to Thai bank account.

Then the second step UK bank to TW's UK account using the 'faster payments' method (free) and TW acknowledge receipt within minutes.

 

If I started a transfer now at 2100, I'll get an SMS by lunch tomorrow from BKK advising the deposit to my account.

This ACH method sounds like a pain in the bum.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

Personally I think it will be refused.

If you had 9 months, since January, they possibly may have shown leniency.

I don't agree. I think they may do them with as little as 3 months. The leniency is meant to help those that cannot meet the 12 month requirement when they apply . Using January as arbitrary starting date is not their intention. 

Before giving up based upon your opinion I suggest they check with their local office to find out what they will accept.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

I don't agree. I think they may do them with as little as 3 months. The leniency is meant to help those that cannot meet the 12 month requirement when they apply . Using January as arbitrary starting date is not their intention. 

Before giving up based upon your opinion I suggest they check with their local office to find out what they will accept.

My opinion is based on reports and TI's amended order re income method and their example.

 

Quote

Except in a case where the applicants retirement is less than 1 year, the evidence must be from the month of retirement.

So other than for very first time applicants.

Quote

For example, the retirement is started in October 2018, the applicant must show pension payments evidence of the whole 12 months is required for the next year.

The amendment is dated Dec 2018, yet the example goes back beyond the date of the order.

Next year, is this year 2019, as the amendment was made in 2018.

TI appear to be  following this example, rather than using leniency and common sense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

@Pib

Local transfers between UK banks are free.

I simply complete the first step of the transfer, TW to Thai bank account.

Then the second step UK bank to TW's UK account using the 'faster payments' method (free) and TW acknowledge receipt within minutes.

 

If I started a transfer now at 2100, I'll get an SMS by lunch tomorrow from BKK advising the deposit to my account.

This ACH method sounds like a pain in the bum.

Goes to show how the same money transfer service such as TW can vary in how it operates depending on the currency pair you are dealing with, what money transfer systems available to a person to fund a transfer, what address is used to register your account, etc. 

 

The US ACH system is a behemoth of a funds transfer system...a batch system...takes several days for settlement to occur/transfer to complete.  Probably similar the the UK BACS system except on a much larger scale.

 

The UK Fast Payment System (FPS) is more of a real time transfer system...probably similar to how a person can transfer funds between different Thai banks and the transfer is real time...done in a few seconds.   Below wikipedia article gives a good overview of the Fast Payment System for others listening in.  And the article says Transferwise was the first "non-bank" payment provider to join the system in Apr 18.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster_Payments_Service
 

Quote


In April 2018, TransferWise joined Faster Payments as the first non-bank payment service provider to be a directly connected settling participant,[23] after being the first of its kind to gain access to Bank of England's Real-Time Gross Settlement (RTGS) system.[24]


 

 

In the US they don't have a nation-wide real time system like FPS inter connecting the gazillion of banks/branch/financial companies/etc.  Instead ACH and Wires transfers are used which take some time to settle...get from here to there. Sure there are propriety payment system like PayPal, Zelle, etc, but these systems are baby monkeys compared to the 800 pound ACH guerrilla.  Now ACH is moving to a same day payment capability, but that's still being implemented.  

 

Yeap, the different payment systems available in different countries can make a big different in how a person must interface with a money transfer services like Transferwise.  

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am missing something in this discussion.  My last (and also first) 1 year retirment extension was last month for which I had the 800k seasoned as required.  I would like to switch to the monthly transfer method on my renewal in Feb. 2020, so I have started making monthly transfers.  Now my question is how do we indicate to TM that we want the bank statement to be evaluated by the deposit or transfer criterion?  I don't remember being asked that in my extension at CW.  If the bank statement supports either standard how do we insist on the monthly transfer method?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

Personally I think it will be refused.

If you had 9 months, since January, they possibly may have shown leniency.

Other than for very first time extension applicants, they appear to be looking for 12 monthly overseas transfers even now.

Perhaps the example in the orders doesn't help as it backdates before the order was even announced. TIT.

Just realised I will actually have well over 12 months of the pension and 6 months of the combination of the pension and additional income. I would have a shortfall of about 250K come application. By adding that 250K 3 months before application I will have sufficient funds with the combo method.

 

The problem is nobody really knows what will actually be acceptable, what a complete cfucuk!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

I am missing something in this discussion.  My last (and also first) 1 year retirment extension was last month for which I had the 800k seasoned as required.  I would like to switch to the monthly transfer method on my renewal in Feb. 2020, so I have started making monthly transfers.  Now my question is how do we indicate to TM that we want the bank statement to be evaluated by the deposit or transfer criterion?  I don't remember being asked that in my extension at CW.  If the bank statement supports either standard how do we insist on the monthly transfer method?

Next year you provide Thai bank statements showing 12 overseas monthly transfers of a minimum of 65K each month from Feb 2018 - Jan 2019.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Tanoshi said:

My opinion is based on reports and TI's amended order re income method and their example.

The boss did issue a memo stating they should be flexible.

This is part of what it stated.

image.png.4610eb089e6a6c1496de74453c1f2c44.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Next year you provide Thai bank statements showing 12 overseas monthly transfers of a minimum of 65K each month from Feb 2018 - Jan 2019.

You failed to understand my question.  Next year I will provide a bank statement that will show both adequate monthly transfer and will meet the 800k/400k deposit requirement also.  But I want them to use the monthly deposit method only.  How do I achieve that?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

You failed to understand my question.  Next year I will provide a bank statement that will show both adequate monthly transfer and will meet the 800k/400k deposit requirement also.  But I want them to use the monthly deposit method only.  How do I achieve that?

Don't show the 800K in the bank, have separate accounts.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

The boss did issue a memo stating they should be flexible.

This is part of what it stated.

image.png.4610eb089e6a6c1496de74453c1f2c44.png

1. Yep, I read it, but it conflicts with the example given in the order.

 

2. I have to ask why the above memo isn't available to all members in Thai and English posted under the Laws, regulations, Police orders section, which could be most helpful in aiding expats dealing with their office.

 

3. How many IO's have actually read this memo to be aware of the situation.

Late January when I did a 90 day report, other than the Boss, the IO's had never seen or read the amendment to orders dated 21st Dec. They only knew what the Boss had told them and didn't understand how I obtained a copy to which they hadn't seen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

1. Yep, I read it, but it conflicts with the example given in the order.

 

2. I have to ask why the above memo isn't available to all members in Thai and English posted under the Laws, regulations, Police orders section, which could be most helpful in aiding expats dealing with their office.

 

3. How many IO's have actually read this memo to be aware of the situation.

Late January when I did a 90 day report, other than the Boss, the IO's had never seen or read the amendment to orders dated 21st Dec. They only knew what the Boss had told them and didn't understand how I obtained a copy to which they hadn't seen.

Thai version

1215610575_ImmigrationMemoForIncomeProof.pdf

 

English version

image.jpeg

 

Keep copies with applications perhaps?

Edited by Thailand
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

2. I have to ask why the above memo isn't available to all members in Thai and English posted under the Laws, regulations, Police orders section, which could be most helpful in aiding expats dealing with their office.

Probably because i have not posted them yet. I just created a PDF for them yesterday. Need to do one that contains both.

Check later today and they may be there.

34 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

3. How many IO's have actually read this memo to be aware of the situation.

I have no idea but I suspect many.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

 

3. How many IO's have actually read this memo to be aware of the situation.

 

 

I suspect the problem may be less people reading it than the fact that it provides insufficient direction.

 

"Based on relevant laws and regulations" does not answer it.  And "mutatis mutandis", even if they know what it means (many will not), also does nto provide clear direction.

 

It has been my experience that Thais and other SE Asians absolutely hate being told to use their judgement or discretion and view it as a sort of trap that is best avoided.

 

What TI needed to have done was give concrete guidance. For example, "in this year only, people extending in the month of March are required to show at least one transfer, in the month of April at least 2"  etc etc.  Concrete instructions.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Probably because i have not posted them yet. I just created a PDF for them yesterday. Need to do one that contains both.

Check later today and they may be there.

I have no idea but I suspect many.

Thanks Joe,

I'm sure that will be appreciated by many members and could be very useful when applying for extensions and meeting resistance.

It may be the first time the IO has actually seen it.

Edited by Tanoshi
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

I suspect the problem may be less people reading it than the fact that it provides insufficient direction.

You can lead a horse to water, but ………………………………...

 

18 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

It has been my experience that Thais and other SE Asians absolutely hate being told to use their judgement or discretion and view it as a sort of trap that is best avoided.

Unfortunately that's the fault of the education systems in Asia, where they're not encouraged to think for themselves, or use their own initiative.

 

16 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

What TI needed to have done was give concrete guidance. For example, "in this year only, people extending in the month of March are required to show at least one transfer, in the month of April at least 2"  etc etc.  Concrete instructions.

Being clear and precise is not a strong point of the Thai language.

Even Thais frequently misunderstand each other.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

Next year you provide Thai bank statements showing 12 overseas monthly transfers of a minimum of 65K each month from Feb 2018 - Jan 2019.

That should have read Feb 2019 - Jan 2020.

To late to edit original post.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.





×
×
  • Create New...