May seeks Brexit delay after third vote on her deal is derailed

[tomacht8]

The main problem of Brexit is its legal, economic and political complexity that would be underestimated by all Pro Brexit politicians. Not one of the UK politicians of the UK Parliament has comprehensive and detailed knowledge of all EU laws.

It was nice to look over the 3 years that almost every week a new problem area was added. Instead of wanting a completely chaotic Brexit with the crowbar, it would be much smarter to plan the exit properly in all details. Good things need their time. The Channel Tunnel has also not been built in one day. The UK should withdraw Art. 50 and start planning a reasonable Brexit for all concerned.

[welovesundaysatspace]

1 hour ago, Thingamabob said:

If there is another vote on this it should be between, on the one hand, 'May's Deal' or. on the other hand, 'No Deal'.

 

'Remain' already eliminated in the earlier referendum.

 

 

Let me sell you a car. I promise you a Ferrari for the price of a Honda. What you get is a broken toy car. When you want to return it, I’m telling you you can’t:

 

“You wanted a car, you got a car. Car means car. All that ‘toy car’ vs. ‘real car’ nonsense is something you only started after you signed the contract. Don’t tell me you didn’t know it; your friend told you I’m a crook. And don’t say our contract is not-binding; your friend told you I wouldn’t give a damn. 

 

But fine, I’m a generous person. You can choose again. Choose between the broken toy car and a bobby car. Canceling the whole is thing is not an option, that you eliminated already.”

[cleopatra2]

1 hour ago, Srikcir said:

It should have not been a surprise to anyone who knew the rules, especially the PM!

In fact the Speaker did not really intervene.

He quite politely informed the PM that the motion to vote a third time on the same Brexit deal must first get the Speaker's approval. And he gave advance notice that the deal must be substantially different from the Deal that had been previously voted on by parliament. If May presents the same Deal to the Speaker for approval, THEN he will intervene by denying it for a vote. 

The issue was raised last October in a Brexit committee .

[SheungWan]

5 hours ago, SheungWan said:

We could make up a similar bogus list for 5-10.

 

5 hours ago, vogie said:

Go for it.

Every single point in that bogus list would rest on the Hard Brexit bogus lie that the result of the referendum demands no-deal only.

[SheungWan]

25 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

The main problem of Brexit is its legal, economic and political complexity that would be underestimated by all Pro Brexit politicians. Not one of the UK politicians of the UK Parliament has comprehensive and detailed knowledge of all EU laws.

It was nice to look over the 3 years that almost every week a new problem area was added. Instead of wanting a completely chaotic Brexit with the crowbar, it would be much smarter to plan the exit properly in all details. Good things need their time. The Channel Tunnel has also not been built in one day. The UK should withdraw Art. 50 and start planning a reasonable Brexit for all concerned.

All fine and good but in reality the project broke down in the face of an unanticipated border issue to the West. Behind You! as the Xmas panto procedes on stage in Act 2. The Hard Brexiteer project cannot deliver.

[johnnybangkok]

6 hours ago, quandow said:

I don't get it. Didn't the citizens vote FOR Brexit? If the vote passed but the politicians don't honor the decision made by the people, then why bother having voted in the first place?

Brexit passed with a very small majority. The politicians did in fact 'honor the decision' as May has in fact negotiated a deal BUT the leavers who were promised all sorts of wonderful but ultimately unachievable things don't like the deal. To be fair, no one likes the deal but that's what the Remain camp have been saying all along i.e. there was never going to be a great deal got from the EU. So we are now left with the options; take May's deal, get more concessions from the EU or implement a No-Deal scenario; one which everyone agrees would be a complete disaster. 

They now have 9 days to do one of them, hence why it's highly likely there will be a delay. 

 

 

[vogie]

1 minute ago, SheungWan said:

All fine and good but in reality the project broke down in the face of an unanticipated border issue to the West. Behind You! as the Xmas panto procedes on stage in Act 2. The Hard Brexiteer project cannot deliver.

Oh yes they can.

[dick dasterdly]

6 hours ago, samran said:

They were also told that a new trade agreement with the EU would be one of the easiest things in the world to negotiate. 

Which is why it's so 'odd' that uk politicians agreed with the eu agenda - trade deals at the bottom of the list....

 

The same applies to the eu/may 'deal'!

[welovesundaysatspace]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

Oh yes they can.

I think he was referring to delivering something more substantial than castles in the sky built on a foundation of lies and lack of knowledge. 

[vogie]

Just now, welovesundaysatspace said:

I think he was referring to delivering something more substantial than castles in the sky built on a foundation of lies and lack of knowledge. 

Missed the joke, did we?

[dick dasterdly]

6 hours ago, SheungWan said:

The one big lie is the Hard Brexiteer one that the referendum result = no-deal and nothing else.

Not true at all.

 

I agree that EVERYONE thought that trade deals would be at the top of the negotiating agenda, and as 'no deal' would be bad for both sides - they would actually negotiate sensibly!

 

They didn't (for some obscure reason ???? ).  Instead, the uk side just agreed with the eu agenda whilst pontificating about "no deal better than a bad deal" etc. etc.

 

And we were 'fooled again' into doing our best to believe this rhetoric......

[welovesundaysatspace]

1 minute ago, dick dasterdly said:

Which is why it's so 'odd' that uk politicians agreed with eu politicians agreed with the eu agenda - trade deals at the bottom of the list....

 

The same applies to the eu/may 'deal'!

It’s actually not at all. Obviously you want to get the Day-1 right first before talking about the future. 

 

It amazes me how literally every mom-and-pop shop who has ever done an acquisition knows all that but the sixth largest economy of the world apparently doesn’t. And apparently doesn’t even have advisors telling them; again something that every mom-and-pop shop does. 

 

When companies buy businesses from other companies, they spent a huge amount of time and effort on understanding beforehand to what extent there are dependencies. Can all licenses be transferred or do I risk losing access to te IT system? Does the whole thing come with the relevant key people or do I risk losing that knowledge and having to build all that myself? Will all the processes work after separating them from their parent or do I risk disruption to the business on Day-1?

 

All these considerations are factored into the negotiation. Quite commonly, a transition period will be negotiated in which the parent company will continue to provide all sorts of services using their systems, people and agreements, all to ensure minimal disruption to the business. Those transition periods can last up to several years and the selling company is being paid for it. A huge amount of time is spent on properly planning how things will work on Day-1, before thinking about a future state. 

 

I have yet to meet a CEO who, when about to acquiring a business from another company, says: “Nah, fxxx it. I don’t care about transition services and business continuity on Day-1. Disruptions to my supply chain? Losing key customers, suppliers or people? I don’t care. We’ve made that great hair blower fifty years ago, we will can build things up again.” Amazingly a huge economy is doing the exact opposite, and some people seem to be supporting that. 

[dick dasterdly]

2 hours ago, mrmicbkktxl said:

Eliminated because they didn't know what consequences a Brexit will have

And we still don't "know" - we only have biased 'opinions' and biased 'forecasts'.

 

It's impossible to know unless it actually happens.

[tomacht8]

16 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

And we still don't "know" - we only have biased 'opinions' and biased 'forecasts'.

 

It's impossible to know unless it actually happens.

lol
Brexit as a surprise bag.
A children's chocolate surprise egg.
A lottery.
A surprise menu.
An adventure game paw.
Very funny idea.

[SheungWan]

38 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Not true at all.

I agree that EVERYONE thought that trade deals would be at the top of the negotiating agenda, and as 'no deal' would be bad for both sides - they would actually negotiate sensibly!

They didn't (for some obscure reason ???? ).  Instead, the uk side just agreed with the eu agenda whilst pontificating about "no deal better than a bad deal" etc. etc.

And we were 'fooled again' into doing our best to believe this rhetoric......

Putting "everyone' into upper case is so convincing.

[Baerboxer]

7 hours ago, quandow said:

I don't get it. Didn't the citizens vote FOR Brexit? If the vote passed but the politicians don't honor the decision made by the people, then why bother having voted in the first place?

 

Nothing to do with actually leaving or remaining originally, but conceived by the inept chancer Cameron as a way to spike the growth in UKIP and quell anti EU factions in the Tory party and potential defections to UKIP.

That's why it was a simple leave or stay question, with no rules about winning margins etc. Cameron thought he'd win a "remain" vote easily.

 

Despite what the Brexiters and some politicians claim, referendums can only be advisory in the UK and there results are not binding on the government or parliament. But May who replaced the coward Cameron who buggered off, resolved to implement it. This was due to Tory party pressure and the fear of upsetting the electorate who voted to leave. First she claimed she could do it without parliament, just the cabinet but the Supreme Court blocked that. So she had to get a deal which she believed would make everyone happy - but that was almost impossible given the stakeholder differences: remainers, brexiters, Tory ERG types, the EU etc.

 

The vote to leave didn't say how to leave, and the devil, as clearly demonstrated is always in the detail. 

 

This has all been made far worse by the politics being played by the Tories and Labor and the key players in those parties who are all focusing on themselves and party way more than the people and country.

 

The referendum was badly constructed, carelessly by people who assumed they'd win. No one considered, or had the slightest idea what to do when the result was known. The floundering chaotic crap heap it's become makes that self evident.

The UK parliament has really been caught washing it's dirty laundry in public which is hopefully a wake up call to the British people.

[Baerboxer]

1 hour ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Let me sell you a car. I promise you a Ferrari for the price of a Honda. What you get is a broken toy car. When you want to return it, I’m telling you you can’t:

 

“You wanted a car, you got a car. Car means car. All that ‘toy car’ vs. ‘real car’ nonsense is something you only started after you signed the contract. Don’t tell me you didn’t know it; your friend told you I’m a crook. And don’t say our contract is not-binding; your friend told you I wouldn’t give a damn. 

 

But fine, I’m a generous person. You can choose again. Choose between the broken toy car and a bobby car. Canceling the whole is thing is not an option, that you eliminated already.”

 

Ecellent similie. But the Brexiters won't understand. They are convinced it was a once in a lifetime never ever to be discussed, changed, or voted on again! 

[nauseus]

4 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Ecellent similie. But the Brexiters won't understand. They are convinced it was a once in a lifetime never ever to be discussed, changed, or voted on again! 

once in a lifetime - possibly for many.

 

never ever to be discussed - you must be kidding!

 

changed - the corrupted powers that be are doing their best to apply their own interpretation of Brexit, a 180 degree rule that effectively alters it to remain. 

 

or voted on again - sadly that's quite likely if the current EU and UK powers get their way.

 

History has a tendency to repeat itself - especially EU voting history - which exposes a sour, anti-democratic streak at the core of the EU. We should get away from it now.

[Basil B]

I can not see how any extension could go past April 11 when we will have to commit to European Elections.

Unless we commit to defiantly leave by June 30 and relinquish any rights to revoke article 50 and remain in the EU. 

[tomacht8]

The last and third round of negotiations / voting round will probably be canceled due to a 400 year old technical defect.

[RickBradford]

Just when you think Brexit couldn't get any sillier, it does.

 

By the due date or March 29, it will probably be:

 

* UK pays 39 billion euros for a deal

* UK remains as associate member of EU, paying money, obeying the laws, but unable to vote

* Northern Ireland given to the Republic.

* Gibraltar given to Spain

* British citizens to lose right to reside in EU; EU citizens retain right to free movement. residence and free healthcare in UK.

 

The incompetence, arrogance, disdain, and self-interest shown by UK politicians and apparatchiks over the past 3 years is something that I hope won't be easily or quickly forgotten.

[tebee]

2 hours ago, tomacht8 said:

The main problem of Brexit is its legal, economic and political complexity that would be underestimated by all Pro Brexit politicians. Not one of the UK politicians of the UK Parliament has comprehensive and detailed knowledge of all EU laws.

It was nice to look over the 3 years that almost every week a new problem area was added. Instead of wanting a completely chaotic Brexit with the crowbar, it would be much smarter to plan the exit properly in all details. Good things need their time. The Channel Tunnel has also not been built in one day. The UK should withdraw Art. 50 and start planning a reasonable Brexit for all concerned.

 

[Kieran00001]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

once in a lifetime - possibly for many.

 

never ever to be discussed - you must be kidding!

 

changed - the corrupted powers that be are doing their best to apply their own interpretation of Brexit, a 180 degree rule that effectively alters it to remain. 

 

or voted on again - sadly that's quite likely if the current EU and UK powers get their way.

 

History has a tendency to repeat itself - especially EU voting history - which exposes a sour, anti-democratic streak at the core of the EU. We should get away from it now.

 

Quote

or voted on again - sadly that's quite likely

 

What do you find sad about that, certain defeat?

[malagateddy]

Can I have one or two beers please..the same as you're having..Thanks[emoji23]

Just when you think Brexit couldn't get any sillier, it does.
 
By the due date or March 29, it will probably be:
 
* UK pays 39 billion euros for a deal
* UK remains as associate member of EU, paying money, obeying the laws, but unable to vote
* Northern Ireland given to the Republic.
* Gibraltar given to Spain
* British citizens to lose right to reside in EU; EU citizens retain right to free movement. residence and free healthcare in UK.
 
The incompetence, arrogance, disdain, and self-interest shown by UK politicians and apparatchiks over the past 3 years is something that I hope won't be easily or quickly forgotten.

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[nauseus]

9 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

 

What do you find sad about that, certain defeat?

Sad because, whatever the outcome, allowing a second referendum on the same question so soon after the first vote would likely destroy any remaining vestiges of UK democracy. I think leave would win again.  

[tebee]

Well she's only asking for a short extension, with no clear objective,  which the EU will probably reject.

 

 

[tebee]

 

[dunroaming]

9 hours ago, vogie said:

1. Remainers keep telling us that referendums are only advisory.

2. The government will only implement the decision of a referendum if the result is remain. 

3. Only the losers want a referendum.

4. Should there be another referendum and leave wins again, do you think anybody in their right mind would trust our self serving politicians to implement it.

 

So you see Your Honour, all another referendum would do is rub salt into the already festering sores of democracy. I rest my case.

Totally agree with the last sentence.  Another referendum would do more harm than good.  A general election would be a better choice but who the hell do you vote for?  Just like if there was a second referendum, we would be left with a bunch of so called politicians who are incapable of representing the people.  As a country we appear to be rudderless, staggering from one disaster to another.

 

So it is unlikely that there will be another chance for the people to have a say on the future of the country in the short term.  We are in the hands of fools and charlatans, liars and cheats.

 

And this is not about leavers and remainers.  This is about our country being screwed.  I know I have been banging on about this for over two years now but none of us are getting what we wanted or voted for.  May's deal is just about as far away from what Brexiteers voted for as you can get.  Same goes for remainers yet it still looks like her deal is the most likely outcome, especially as Brexiteers like JRM are coming round to accepting it.  Gove and Fox have already capitulated on it.

[vogie]

8 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

Totally agree with the last sentence.  Another referendum would do more harm than good.  A general election would be a better choice but who the hell do you vote for?  Just like if there was a second referendum, we would be left with a bunch of so called politicians who are incapable of representing the people.  As a country we appear to be rudderless, staggering from one disaster to another.

 

So it is unlikely that there will be another chance for the people to have a say on the future of the country in the short term.  We are in the hands of fools and charlatans, liars and cheats.

 

And this is not about leavers and remainers.  This is about our country being screwed.  I know I have been banging on about this for over two years now but none of us are getting what we wanted or voted for.  May's deal is just about as far away from what Brexiteers voted for as you can get.  Same goes for remainers yet it still looks like her deal is the most likely outcome, especially as Brexiteers like JRM are coming round to accepting it.  Gove and Fox have already capitulated on it.

I think the problem with remainers wanting another referendumn (apart from ones already mentioned) is that as much as remainer MPs want one, May and Corbyn doesn't, Corbyn doesn't even believe in Labour policies. But in my honest opinion another referendum is just a ploy to scupper brexit.

But still interesting days ahead.

[dunroaming]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

I think the problem with remainers wanting another referendumn (apart from ones already mentioned) is that as much as remainer MPs want one, May and Corbyn doesn't, Corbyn doesn't even believe in Labour policies. But in my honest opinion another referendum is just a ploy to scupper brexit.

But still interesting days ahead.

It is obvious that the people calling for another referendum are going to be people who voted remain in the first place.  Nobody is going to argue against that.  Leavers cannot be happy with where we are though, any more than remainers are.  But we all have to look above leave/remain voting principles or rights and wrongs attached to them now.  It is about where we are going to end up and the fallout.

 

I guess recriminations will go on for years whatever the result is but it is pointless us all beating each other up over it. Whichever way we voted, nobody expected us to be where we are today, nobody foresaw this amount of chaos.