nauseus Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 4 hours ago, Baerboxer said: Nothing to do with actually leaving or remaining originally, but conceived by the inept chancer Cameron as a way to spike the growth in UKIP and quell anti EU factions in the Tory party and potential defections to UKIP. That's why it was a simple leave or stay question, with no rules about winning margins etc. Cameron thought he'd win a "remain" vote easily. Despite what the Brexiters and some politicians claim, referendums can only be advisory in the UK and there results are not binding on the government or parliament. But May who replaced the coward Cameron who buggered off, resolved to implement it. This was due to Tory party pressure and the fear of upsetting the electorate who voted to leave. First she claimed she could do it without parliament, just the cabinet but the Supreme Court blocked that. So she had to get a deal which she believed would make everyone happy - but that was almost impossible given the stakeholder differences: remainers, brexiters, Tory ERG types, the EU etc. The vote to leave didn't say how to leave, and the devil, as clearly demonstrated is always in the detail. This has all been made far worse by the politics being played by the Tories and Labor and the key players in those parties who are all focusing on themselves and party way more than the people and country. The referendum was badly constructed, carelessly by people who assumed they'd win. No one considered, or had the slightest idea what to do when the result was known. The floundering chaotic crap heap it's become makes that self evident. The UK parliament has really been caught washing it's dirty laundry in public which is hopefully a wake up call to the British people. Don't believe all that guff, Quandow. The history of this referendum goes back a lot further than boxer maintains and was obviously needed, as is evident by both the turnout and result. The subsequent mess is the result of a EU (sym)pathetic parliament unwilling to carry out a democratic mandate from majority of the electorate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritManToo Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 4 hours ago, Baerboxer said: The vote to leave didn't say how to leave, and the devil, as clearly demonstrated is always in the detail. When I want to leave a club, I just stop paying membership fees. That normally works, although sometimes they give me a free years membership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpinx Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 11 minutes ago, dunroaming said: It is obvious that the people calling for another referendum are going to be people who voted remain in the first place. Nobody is going to argue against that. Leavers cannot be happy with where we are though, any more than remainers are. But we all have to look above leave/remain voting principles or rights and wrongs attached to them now. It is about where we are going to end up and the fallout. I guess recriminations will go on for years whatever the result is but it is pointless us all beating each other up over it. Whichever way we voted, nobody expected us to be where we are today, nobody foresaw this amount of chaos. Sadly, I'm too lazy to crawl back through postings, but I was not alone in saying about the referendum result, that UK should immediately stop all payments to EU, revert to WTO and close the borders. It would have been chaotic for a wee while, but no worse than the last 3 years of total shambles and uncertainty. I don't like "I told you so..." but in this case, I did.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnyo Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 Classy, the U.K begging to the EU. Taking back control or what!Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunroaming Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 16 minutes ago, jpinx said: Sadly, I'm too lazy to crawl back through postings, but I was not alone in saying about the referendum result, that UK should immediately stop all payments to EU, revert to WTO and close the borders. It would have been chaotic for a wee while, but no worse than the last 3 years of total shambles and uncertainty. I don't like "I told you so..." but in this case, I did.... Chaotic for a wee while? That could well have been a massive understatement but we will never know. Clearly nobody saw that as a workable option at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpinx Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 46 minutes ago, dunroaming said: Chaotic for a wee while? That could well have been a massive understatement but we will never know. Clearly nobody saw that as a workable option at the time. The politicians never wanted to leave - that would be too close to voting their buddy MEP's out of a job. Seeing things as "workable options" is a step beyond the competence of politicians generally, as recent events have shown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil B Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 6 hours ago, tomacht8 said: The last and third round of negotiations / voting round will probably be canceled due to a 400 year old technical defect. It is not a technical defect, it is to stop the same issue that was voted down be put time and time again, Why the speaker allowed it last week is beyond me, although she claimed to have guarantees on the back stop but the attorney general who is more legally qualified than the PM said otherwise. It was just a rehash of the same mumbo jumbo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil B Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 6 hours ago, nauseus said: Sad because, whatever the outcome, allowing a second referendum on the same question so soon after the first vote would likely destroy any remaining vestiges of UK democracy. I think leave would win again. but it was 3 years ago... Last week TM asked MP's to vote on "Meaningful Vote" after a crippling defeat only a few weeks ago, after being defeated twice she attempted to ask for MP's to vote on it again only a week after being voted down... So why not another referendum??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nauseus Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 Just now, Basil B said: but it was 3 years ago... Last week TM asked MP's to vote on "Meaningful Vote" after a crippling defeat only a few weeks ago, after being defeated twice she attempted to ask for MP's to vote on it again only a week after being voted down... So why not another referendum??? Her dumb deal has nothing to do with what I said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpinx Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 Breaking news! Donald Tusk says a short extension is possible, but needs UK MP's to agree the deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil B Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 1 minute ago, nauseus said: Her dumb deal has nothing to do with what I said. It clear the the PM can not agree a solution acceptable to a majority of MP's It clear that HM Government can not agree a solution acceptable to a majority of MP's It clear that the official opposition can not agree a solution acceptable to a majority of MP's Time to as the people... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil B Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 17 minutes ago, jpinx said: Breaking news! Donald Tusk says a short extension is possible, but needs UK MP's to agree the deal. ain't going to happen. This is going to the wire, the sad thing is when staff at the Passport Office finish work end of next week they will not know whether they will be issuing red or blue passports when they return on Monday the 1st of April and that is no joke. I hope no one needs to renew their passports in the near future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nauseus Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 13 minutes ago, Basil B said: It clear the the PM can not agree a solution acceptable to a majority of MP's It clear that HM Government can not agree a solution acceptable to a majority of MP's It clear that the official opposition can not agree a solution acceptable to a majority of MP's Time to as the people... The people voted out. That is also clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil B Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 I am sure there will be a another referendum, and when it is overturned brexiteers will be saying it was not a true reflection of the peoples opinion because they did not recognize the referendum's legality so did not vote.???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nauseus Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 23 minutes ago, Basil B said: I am sure there will be a another referendum, and when it is overturned brexiteers will be saying it was not a true reflection of the peoples opinion because they did not recognize the referendum's legality so did not vote.???? If there is another referendum, and it is overturned, that's fine by me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SheungWan Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 6 hours ago, jpinx said: Sadly, I'm too lazy to crawl back through postings, but I was not alone in saying about the referendum result, that UK should immediately stop all payments to EU, revert to WTO and close the borders. It would have been chaotic for a wee while, but no worse than the last 3 years of total shambles and uncertainty. I don't like "I told you so..." but in this case, I did.... "Close the borders". Including the Northern Irish border presumably. "Chaotic for a wee while". .....And the Hard Brexiteers don't like their ideas being called stupid! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpinx Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 15 minutes ago, SheungWan said: "Close the borders". Including the Northern Irish border presumably. "Chaotic for a wee while". .....And the Hard Brexiteers don't like their ideas being called stupid! UK and Ireland rubbed along ok, from the trading point of view. Peoples views of the Irish border are deeply coloured by the "troubles", which are basically settled now. We've had uncertainty and a lack of leadership for the last 2 years, but we now have a chance of a new start. No-one likes to called "stupid" - you included ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SheungWan Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 6 minutes ago, jpinx said: UK and Ireland rubbed along ok, from the trading point of view. Peoples views of the Irish border are deeply coloured by the "troubles", which are basically settled now. We've had uncertainty and a lack of leadership for the last 2 years, but we now have a chance of a new start. No-one likes to called "stupid" - you included ???? The very idea that overthrowing the Good Friday Agreement with re-establishment of the N-Ireland-Ireland border, well, even most Hard Brexiteers are not so stupid as to push that one right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpinx Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 38 minutes ago, SheungWan said: The very idea that overthrowing the Good Friday Agreement with re-establishment of the N-Ireland-Ireland border, well, even most Hard Brexiteers are not so stupid as to push that one right now. There's that word again ???? A difference of opinion is not a difference of intelligence. ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanemax Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 1 hour ago, SheungWan said: The very idea that overthrowing the Good Friday Agreement with re-establishment of the N-Ireland-Ireland border, well, even most Hard Brexiteers are not so stupid as to push that one right now. Of course no one "wants" that to happen as a stand alone decision , But , it may have to happen in the course of the UK leaving the E.U Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil B Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 1 hour ago, SheungWan said: The very idea that overthrowing the Good Friday Agreement with re-establishment of the N-Ireland-Ireland border, well, even most Hard Brexiteers are not so stupid as to push that one right now. Seems they are, Spokes person for the ERG says no way are they voting for TM's deal next week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil B Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 Not much more she can other than to threaten Tory MP's with having the whip removed and being deselected and hope a few Labour MP's defy Corbyn and vote for her deal, that is if the Speaker allows he motion to be debated and voted on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil B Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 Today the Tory Parties Darkest Hour. Quote French journalist Bénédicte Paviot says "once again reality surpasses fiction". "Are we witnessing the last days not just of the prime minister but also of the Conservative party?" she asks. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-parliaments-47614151 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritManToo Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 8 hours ago, Basil B said: I am sure there will be a another referendum, and when it is overturned brexiteers will be saying it was not a true reflection of the peoples opinion because they did not recognize the referendum's legality so did not vote.???? What if they voted out again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vogie Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 5 minutes ago, BritManToo said: What if they voted out again? Have another, what else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritManToo Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 1 minute ago, vogie said: Have another, what else? Best of five? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SheungWan Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 7 hours ago, jpinx said: There's that word again ???? A difference of opinion is not a difference of intelligence. ???? 6 hours ago, sanemax said: Of course no one "wants" that to happen as a stand alone decision , But , it may have to happen in the course of the UK leaving the E.U On this one, if the cap fits, wear it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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