Returning to London, Britain's May faces mammoth task to change minds on Brexit

[tebee]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

I hear what you are saying tebee, but I'm beginning to wonder if there is a Brexit compromise. We voted to leave the EU and anything less is not leaving, what ever we agree with the EU, we will be locked into the EU for the rest of our existance, with no say on anything and having to obey their rules, laws and regulations, that is not what we voted for.

The halfway house is no good for leavers, nor should I imagine for remainers. The only thing that would make you happy is to remain, just as the only thing that would make leavers happy would be a clean break. Should it be possible to leave with an deal that would not tie us in any way to the EU would be very nice, but I just can't see it. Would you be happy with a halfway house deal?

Democracy is not well served by referendums on major constitutional changes  without a supermajority - you need to be certain to have the consent of the country to implement the change. Can you imagine the state of the country if every time Labour got in they nationalized every industry and everytime the Conservatives came to power they privatized them again ?

 

Simmeraly democracy is not well served by barging into those constitutional changes  without a clear idea of what we want the outcome to be, especially when we let one person take control and use it to further her own personal agenda.  

 

Particular problem here is all halfway houses seem worse than the extremes  - they don't give either side what they want. But because views got so polarized early on,  all chance of compromise was lost. Anything less than total capitulation by the other side is seen as defeat. The problem we have now is we have 45% wanting hard leave, 45% wanting hard remain and 10% still wanting a compromise. There is no majority for any solution.

 

  

[tebee]

Theresa May Has Poisoned the Well of British Politics

 

https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-the-uk/theresa-may-has-poisoned-the-well-of-british-politics

[melvinmelvin]

10 minutes ago, tebee said:

Democracy is not well served by referendums on major constitutional changes  without a supermajority - you need to be certain to have the consent of the country to implement the change. Can you imagine the state of the country if every time Labour got in they nationalized every industry and everytime the Conservatives came to power they privatized them again ?

 

Simmeraly democracy is not well served by barging into those constitutional changes  without a clear idea of what we want the outcome to be, especially when we let one person take control and use it to further her own personal agenda.  

 

Particular problem here is all halfway houses seem worse than the extremes  - they don't give either side what they want. But because views got so polarized early on,  all chance of compromise was lost. Anything less than total capitulation by the other side is seen as defeat. The problem we have now is we have 45% wanting hard leave, 45% wanting hard remain and 10% still wanting a compromise. There is no majority for any solution.

 

  

but in this Brexit case, even with a solid

60 leave and 40 remain

you would  still have a Commons and a Geriatric House packed with remainers

[vogie]

41 minutes ago, tebee said:

Democracy is not well served by referendums on major constitutional changes  without a supermajority - you need to be certain to have the consent of the country to implement the change. Can you imagine the state of the country if every time Labour got in they nationalized every industry and everytime the Conservatives came to power they privatized them again ?

 

Simmeraly democracy is not well served by barging into those constitutional changes  without a clear idea of what we want the outcome to be, especially when we let one person take control and use it to further her own personal agenda.  

 

Particular problem here is all halfway houses seem worse than the extremes  - they don't give either side what they want. But because views got so polarized early on,  all chance of compromise was lost. Anything less than total capitulation by the other side is seen as defeat. The problem we have now is we have 45% wanting hard leave, 45% wanting hard remain and 10% still wanting a compromise. There is no majority for any solution.

 

  

"Democracy is not well served by referendums on major constitutional changes  without a supermajority"

I suppose that depends whose sides wins, but irrespective of that, those were the rules at the time and now we are where we are. We must all adhere to the rules that we were given, you cannot claim off side after the game has finished.

But can you see yourself a compromise position here, once you compromise you are doing neither one nor t'uther.

[Baerboxer]

On 3/23/2019 at 7:23 AM, OneMoreFarang said:

And then there are of course those people who have apparently no idea what they are talking about.

I read an article recently that 1 of 8 Brits think leaving without a deal means everything will stay exactly like it is...

 

I had some discussions on a FB page over the last few days. Most people were over 50. Most were for leaving. Reasons they gave:

• the EU isn't democratic. But they couldn't answer questions on the EU parliament, council of leaders etc
• the EU "tells our parliament what they can and can't do". No examples.
• The EU is raping us and stealing all our money. 
• Every one will have a job once all the foreigners go home.
• Our MP's get big pensions from the EU, that's why they want to stay in.
• One even insisted his nationality was English and the country was England.
• The EU ruined our NHS
• The EU stole all the fish in our fishing grounds.
• The referendum was legally binding. Cameron told us.
• The referendum was once in a lifetime, Cameron told us.
• We should just leave. It's that easy. Boris said so.

I could go on. What's scary is that many of these people are normal, reasonably well to do, average citizens.

 

Many are really frustrated but also have no idea as to the real arguments, issues, or consequences of leaving or remaining; and have no idea how their own country is governed let alone the EU.

 

Don't blame the people, blame the corrupt self interested opportunistic politicians who created this misunderstanding muddle so they can take advantage of it.

[Spidey]

13 minutes ago, vogie said:

I suppose that depends whose sides wins, but irrespective of that, those were the rules at the time and now we are where we are. We must all adhere to the rules that we were given, you cannot claim off side after the game has finished.

You can appeal a red card if you get sent off.

[sanemax]

Just now, Spidey said:

You can appeal a red card if you get sent off.

But you cannot change your vote , once you have voted 

[Baerboxer]

12 minutes ago, vogie said:

"Democracy is not well served by referendums on major constitutional changes  without a supermajority"

I suppose that depends whose sides wins, but irrespective of that, those were the rules at the time and now we are where we are. We must all adhere to the rules that we were given, you cannot claim off side after the game has finished.

But can you see yourself a compromise position here, once you compromise you are doing neither one nor t'uther.

 

And the rules very clearly stated the referendum was advisory. All advice can be taken, and then discarded if it proves to be bad advice!

 

What should have happened is the government and parliament should have followed the advice and thoroughly and honestly, investigated leaving, and all it's options as opposed to remaining, and then debated and voted on the options before enacting Article 50. But that wouldn't have allowed them to lie and pursue their own personal agendas rather than actually doing their job.

 

That's the whole point of why we have a representative democracy.

 

I'm beginning to like Guy Fawkes more and more!

[Baerboxer]

Just now, sanemax said:

But you cannot change your vote , once you have voted 

 

But you can change or vote the same or decide not to vote at the next time

[Spidey]

2 minutes ago, sanemax said:

But you cannot change your vote , once you have voted 

But you can have a second referendum.

 

But the government can revoke Article 50.

 

But a pregnant woman can get an abortion.

 

But you can take your car back to the garage if you find that you have bought a knacker when you were promised a cracker.

[OneMoreFarang]

1 hour ago, Baerboxer said:

 

I had some discussions on a FB page over the last few days. Most people were over 50. Most were for leaving. Reasons they gave:

• the EU isn't democratic. But they couldn't answer questions on the EU parliament, council of leaders etc
• the EU "tells our parliament what they can and can't do". No examples.
• The EU is raping us and stealing all our money. 
• Every one will have a job once all the foreigners go home.
• Our MP's get big pensions from the EU, that's why they want to stay in.
• One even insisted his nationality was English and the country was England.
• The EU ruined our NHS
• The EU stole all the fish in our fishing grounds.
• The referendum was legally binding. Cameron told us.
• The referendum was once in a lifetime, Cameron told us.
• We should just leave. It's that easy. Boris said so.

I could go on. What's scary is that many of these people are normal, reasonably well to do, average citizens.

 

Many are really frustrated but also have no idea as to the real arguments, issues, or consequences of leaving or remaining; and have no idea how their own country is governed let alone the EU.

 

Don't blame the people, blame the corrupt self interested opportunistic politicians who created this misunderstanding muddle so they can take advantage of it.

I see from time to time the press overview with all the front pages of the UK press.

It's amazing how many versions of reality seem to exist.

If some of those people only regular read some of those tabloids then I am not surprised that their word view is disturbed.

[Loiner]

1 hour ago, Baerboxer said:

 

 

I could go on. What's scary is that many of these people are normal, reasonably well to do, average citizens.

 

Many are really frustrated but also have no idea as to the real arguments, issues, or consequences of leaving or remaining; and have no idea how their own country is governed let alone the EU.

 

Don't blame the people, blame the corrupt self interested opportunistic politicians who created this misunderstanding muddle so they can take advantage of it.

So contrary to some of the posters here, they are not morons, xenophobes, racists or whatever other insults you care to throw at them. There's more of them than you. Did it occur to you then that Remainers are the ones who have got it wrong? Given the average Remainer demographic and geographic locations, I'd say so.

[Loiner]

3 hours ago, Spidey said:

https://www.freemasonrytoday.com/ugle-sgc/ugle/grand-secretary-interview-with-nigel-brown

 

He sounds a right pratt. Very pro the working man. Glad you could work "The Lodge" into the thread somewhere.

 

First it was "Tommy Islam this" and "Tommy Islam that", now it's all about the Lodge. I'm beginning to join the dots up.

 

 

Can ya see what it is yet? Be careful with those crayons and don't get anything up the walls.
Nice try but not even close. Your Nigel sounds like a good bloke though.

[Laughing Gravy]

16 hours ago, stephenterry said:

If you're going to respond to me, please quote my complete post, not cherry-pick it. 

Ar least i respond to your posts you don't mind when asked a question.

I replied to what i felt worthy. It isn't against any forum rules.

[Laughing Gravy]

13 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

I could go on. What's scary is that many of these people are normal, reasonably well to do, average citizens.

 

Many are really frustrated but also have no idea as to the real arguments, issues, or consequences of leaving or remaining; and have no idea how their own country is governed let alone the EU.

But that is because you have a different opinion to those. Many people don't give a hoots on the arguments, consequences. it doesn't mean their opinion or voice shouldn't be heard, because it differs from yours.

Why is it scary BB? You are stigmatising and generalising those who seem to have a different opinion or reasoning from you. That's the world.