How to write 'usufruct' in Thai

[GalaxyMan]

I cannot find it anywhere, only the English version of the Thai word, see-tee-kep-kin. Thanks.

[katana]

สิทธิเก็บกิน

https://th.wikipedia.org/wiki/สิทธิเก็บกิน

[GalaxyMan]

15 hours ago, katana said:

สิทธิเก็บกิน 

https://th.wikipedia.org/wiki/สิทธิเก็บกิน

Many thanks.

[Enki]

Funny, I was to post the exact same question, letter by letter.

 

Luckily one of the top google hits lead me here. I actually found another alternative spelling in english ????

[GalaxyMan]

12 hours ago, Enki said:

Funny, I was to post the exact same question, letter by letter.

 

Luckily one of the top google hits lead me here. I actually found another alternative spelling in english ????

I've finally started trying to learn the Thai alphabet and now realize that it should be spelled in English as see-tee-gip-gin. I think. ????

[Oxx]

6 minutes ago, GalaxyMan said:

it should be spelled in English as see-tee-gip-gin.

 

The official system for transcribing Thai words is the RTGS, in which is would be sitthi kep kin.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Thai_General_System_of_Transcription

[GalaxyMan]

16 minutes ago, Oxx said:

 

The official system for transcribing Thai words is the RTGS, in which is would be sitthi kep kin.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Thai_General_System_of_Transcription

Which I've always found very strange. The letter for G, gaw-gai ( กิ ), for example. I've never heard of a chicken called a kai, it's always gai. Every menu I've ever seen says tom ka gai, not tom ka kai. I noticed that the US State Department's language program also follows this RTGS. It makes no sense to me to learn it, as it doesn't correlate with the way the language is spoken vis-a-vis my understanding of how to pronounce English letters and how I hear the Thai people pronouncing the words.

[Oxx]

27 minutes ago, GalaxyMan said:

The letter for G, gaw-gai ( กิ ), for example. I've never heard of a chicken called a kai, it's always gai.

 

Actually, though you think of it as "g", you're replacing an unfamiliar sound with what is to you the closest approximation in your native tongue; ก is not pronounced as "g", and its sound does not occur in English.

 

The reason for using "k" is that it pairs unaspirated with aspirate equivalents in a regular manner:  k/kh, p/ph, t/th.  (Mary Haas' system also has c/ch, though the RTGS doesn't use this.)

[GalaxyMan]

3 hours ago, Oxx said:

 

Actually, though you think of it as "g", you're replacing an unfamiliar sound with what is to you the closest approximation in your native tongue; ก is not pronounced as "g", and its sound does not occur in English.

 

The reason for using "k" is that it pairs unaspirated with aspirate equivalents in a regular manner:  k/kh, p/ph, t/th.  (Mary Haas' system also has c/ch, though the RTGS doesn't use this.)

That may very well be, but that doesn't change the fact that the sound is a lot closer to G than to K by my ears. In fact, I don't hear K at all.

[Oxx]

24 minutes ago, GalaxyMan said:

That may very well be, but that doesn't change the fact that the sound is a lot closer to G than to K by my ears. In fact, I don't hear K at all.

 

As I intimated at before (and meaning no offence), the issue is with your ears which are highly attuned to your native language, which I presume is English.  You are misrecognising alien sounds.

 

Using IPA, the Thai "g" as you describe it, is /k/.  The English "g" sound is /ɡ/ or /ɡ̊/.  Very different.  The English "k" sound is, in IPA, usually /kʰ/ (and rarely /k/).

 

 

[GalaxyMan]

1 hour ago, Oxx said:

 

As I intimated at before (and meaning no offence), the issue is with your ears which are highly attuned to your native language, which I presume is English.  You are misrecognising alien sounds.

 

Using IPA, the Thai "g" as you describe it, is /k/.  The English "g" sound is /ɡ/ or /ɡ̊/.  Very different.  The English "k" sound is, in IPA, usually /kʰ/ (and rarely /k/).

 

 

With any luck, one of these days I'll be able to understand and make that differentiation. Many thanks.

[Enki]

On 5/2/2019 at 7:27 AM, Oxx said:

 

As I intimated at before (and meaning no offence), the issue is with your ears which are highly attuned to your native language, which I presume is English.  You are misrecognising alien sounds.

 

Using IPA, the Thai "g" as you describe it, is /k/.  The English "g" sound is /ɡ/ or /ɡ̊/.  Very different.  The English "k" sound is, in IPA, usually /kʰ/ (and rarely /k/).

 

 

Could you give some example words? No one is really familiar with IPA. The problem with thai letters is they sound different depending on context. Ko Kai is most of the time a G, and there is no other G in the alphabet ... so I/we don't get what you want to say.

[Oxx]

9 minutes ago, Enki said:

Ko Kai is most of the time a G, and there is no other G in the alphabet ... so I/we don't get what you want to say.

 

No.  It's never a "g".  It has its own sound which does not occur in English.  Conversely, the English "g" sound does not occur in Thai - or putting it in your terms, there's no "G" whatsoever in the Thai alphabet.

 

As for "most of the time", again no.  The sound is not variable.

[tgeezer]

Is there any point in saying that ก ไก is not G if it can’t be explained?  

ง งู does not occur in English but the sound is produced using the same mouth parts as ก ไก and ข ไข่ 

So if you want ก ไก, use the tongue on the roof of your mouth as you say G, I know that we do that anyway but be less aggressive, ก ไก is a soft sound. 

Do the same with ข ไข่ but release air, still soft. 

For ง งู bring the nose into play difficult to be hard or soft because the the sound is in the nose. 

In Thai ก ไก is described as ระเบิด ไม่ก้อง ไม่มีลม เพดานอ่อน 

ข ไข่ ระเบิด ไม่ก้อง มีลม เพดานอ่อน 

For comparison จ is ระเบิด ไม่ก้อง ไม่มีลม เพดานแข็ง whereas ช is ระเบิด ไม่ก้อง มีลม เพดานแข็ง 

It feels to me that the tongue on the roof of the mouth further forward than ก ไก is เพดานแข็ง

I remember the order of consonants as the first seven produced by the interaction of tongue and the back of the mouth, the next six are produced further forward and the tongue harder on the roof of the mouth, and the next twelve use the tongue on the gums and teeth.

 

  That is how I know that ญ หญิง comes before ณ เณร and why.    

 

The complete ก ไก ข ไข่ can be explained if you choose to do so. There are 44 consonants but only 21 sounds in Thai. eg. ก, ข ง sounds are represented by 7 consonants. 

 

[Oxx]

9 minutes ago, tgeezer said:

Is there any point in saying that ก ไก is not G if it can’t be explained?  

 

Uh, I did explain it back in May, five months ago.  Unfortunately, such points can really only be expressed using IPA meaning that the subtleties will be lost upon those not prepared to take the time to learn IPA.

 

Of course, I could explain it using precise linguistic terms, but that would be equally incomprehensible to those not familiar with such matters.

[tgeezer]

I am merely pointing out how easy it is to pronounce Thai, there is no substitute for practical demonstration, even the precise “linguistic terms” are useless unless they have been demonstrated. 

The point is that if one feels it important to avoid G then have someone demonstrate it.  I like to make the distinction but it isn’t necessary because as I intimated, one only needs to distinguish between two sounds ไก and ไข่; gai and khai does that. 

 

[Enki]

On 10/3/2019 at 2:23 PM, Oxx said:

 

No.  It's never a "g".  It has its own sound which does not occur in English.  Conversely, the English "g" sound does not occur in Thai - or putting it in your terms, there's no "G" whatsoever in the Thai alphabet.

 

As for "most of the time", again no.  The sound is not variable.

Sorry,

you are simply wrong. Chicken is Gai ... a clear G. Perhaps your mother language has some side "tones" / "notes" to a G ... for me as a German, no pun intended, Gai sounds like German, the exact same G.

[Percy Penguin]

On 10/3/2019 at 1:23 PM, Oxx said:

 

No.  It's never a "g".  It has its own sound which does not occur in English.  Conversely, the English "g" sound does not occur in Thai - or putting it in your terms, there's no "G" whatsoever in the Thai alphabet.

 

As for "most of the time", again no.  The sound is not variable.

5 hours ago, Enki said:

Sorry,

you are simply wrong. Chicken is Gai ... a clear G. Perhaps your mother language has some side "tones" / "notes" to a G ... for me as a German, no pun intended, Gai sounds like German, the exact same G.

 

 

English g is always voiced, but ก is never voiced. The reason it seems more like g is that g is never aspirated, whereas k often is. German may well be different. If I say güt I use an unaspirated consonant much like ก, but then I did a whole 2 years of German at school and have been there twice, so that doesn't really prove anything. Anyway, Oxx was talking about English.

 

I don't see much difference between ก and the unaspirated k that occurs after other consonants, as in skin, so I'd say that English does have the Thai sound, but Thai doesn't have the English sound. IOW, ก is like ต or ป in that it does occur in English, just not at the beginning of a word. If you go with k English speakers will tend to aspirate it, whereas if you go with g they will tend to voice it - so neither option is perfect, but then neither is wrong IMO. In favour of g is the fact that Thai doesn't have a voiced version, so Thai speakers will probably realise you were going for ก, whereas if you use k as in kin - which Thai does have - they will hear ค. In favour of k is the fact that it helps you realise that the ก / ค pairing is the same as  ต / ท, ป / พ etc. OTOH.

[tgeezer]

That was a good explanation and useful in perhaps helping to understand a Thai approach which I prefer for its simplicity.  
The consonants ก and ข, ค etc. are described as ระเบิด, ไม่ก้อง and differ only in ไม่มีลม and มีลม respectively.  So not aspirated and aspirated, correct?
 

ต,ด and บ,ป similarly differ in both cases in one aspect only which is that both are ระเบิด ไม่มีลม but ด บ are ก้อง and ด ป are ไม่ก้อง .  
ก้อง is to sound like a drum, is that “voiced”? 
It might not seem confusing to people who know the English but I found it so until I discovered the Thai explanations. 
I realise that defining sounds is analogous to defining words, the Thai way is not for everyone but worth exploring.
 I might add that a Thai linguist also makes more of this subject than is necessary for communication. 

 

[Percy Penguin]

5 hours ago, tgeezer said:

ต,ด and บ,ป similarly differ in both cases in one aspect only which is that both are ระเบิด ไม่มีลม but ด บ are ก้อง and ด ป are ไม่ก้อง .  

ก้อง is to sound like a drum, is that “voiced”?

Must be...

 

Yes - it doesn't seem to be in the RID but Thaitux has โฆษะ : (N) ; voice ; Related:vocalization, sound ; Syn:ก้อง

 

I managed to get someone who asked for help with English pronunciation to make the v sound by starting with ฟ and adding voice. I didn't know the correct term but เสียง worked fine. This approach worked really well in fact.

 

I remember a teacher using ลม to refer to aspiration, so I'm sure your first para is right.

[BritManToo]

On 5/2/2019 at 7:26 AM, GalaxyMan said:

Which I've always found very strange. The letter for G, gaw-gai ( กิ ), for example. I've never heard of a chicken called a kai, it's always gai. Every menu I've ever seen says tom ka gai, not tom ka kai. I noticed that the US State Department's language program also follows this RTGS. It makes no sense to me to learn it, as it doesn't correlate with the way the language is spoken vis-a-vis my understanding of how to pronounce English letters and how I hear the Thai people pronouncing the words.

The transliteration system was created by a royal.

Correct it at your peril.

[BritManToo]

On 5/2/2019 at 2:11 PM, GalaxyMan said:

With any luck, one of these days I'll be able to understand and make that differentiation. Many thanks.

Don't go there, other poster is typing BS.

[tgeezer]

2 hours ago, Percy Penguin said:

Must be...

 

Yes - it doesn't seem to be in the RID but Thaitux has โฆษะ : (N) ; voice ; Related:vocalization, sound ; Syn:ก้อง

 

I managed to get someone who asked for help with English pronunciation to make the v sound by starting with ฟ and adding voice. I didn't know the correct term but เสียง worked fine. This approach worked really well in fact.

 

I remember a teacher using ลม to refer to aspiration, so I'm sure your first para is right.

I remember โฆษะ and อโฆษะ and another ธนิต, that is what I meant by saying that Thai linguists can make more of it. They are only the Sanskrit words which of course specialisation demands. 

 I have made some discoveries when helping Thais with English, I think that it has improved my English.    

 

[tgeezer]

On 10/8/2019 at 1:14 PM, Percy Penguin said:

Must be...

 

Yes - it doesn't seem to be in the RID but Thaitux has โฆษะ : (N) ; voice ; Related:vocalization, sound ; Syn:ก้อง

 

I managed to get someone who asked for help with English pronunciation to make the v sound by starting with ฟ and adding voice. I didn't know the correct term but เสียง worked fine. This approach worked really well in fact.

 

I remember a teacher using ลม to refer to aspiration, so I'm sure your first para is right.

I remember โฆษะ and อโฆษะ and another ธนิต, that is what I meant by saying that Thai linguists can make more of it. They are only the Sanskrit words which of course specialisation demands. 

 I have made some discoveries when helping Thais with English, I think that it has improved my English.