Can Consulate Personnel be sued under Civil Law of Thailand for wrongs committed, in Consulate [ not Thailand Consulate ] against Visitor ?

[Arkady]

A friend worked at the US consulate in Frankfurt and said his grade didn't get full diplomatic immunity for some reason, even though he was a state department hired US diplomat, not locally engaged staff.  One of his colleagues with the same status was arrested by the German police for drunk driving and taken to the police station. He was released without charge when they established he was indeed consular staff but the police reported the incident to the consul-general. The consul-general summarily dismissed him for cause from the foreign service and put him on the next flight back to the US the following day. His personal effects were packed up from his residence and sent on after him.  US diplomats are warned that they will be summarily dismissed for drunken driving offences anywhere in the world. Now they also have random drug tests with the same penalty for anyone testing positive. 

 

In Thailand, however, I don't the police would trouble anyone driving a car with diplo plates.

[RandG]

Will also depend on whether it is a Consulate,  or Honorary Consulate. 

[Mavideol]

to refresh the memory.... Kashoggi killed at the Saudi Arabia consulate located in TURKEY however considered as Saudi territory, when Erdogan asked for the killers to be sent back to Turkey for trial, a clear and unequivocal NO, the trial will take place in SA, thus consulate place is considered as representation of the country's place, not the hosting country, you may be correct about the immunity of some of its members if they are involved in some wrong doing at the hosting country, however when and if that happen the country of origin can always activate the diplomatic immunity, if necessary and convenient 

[Blue Muton]

18 hours ago, Our Man in the Tropics said:

I trust that this is a most stimulating topic for all nationalities everywhere.

Your trust may be misplaced.

 

Some may find it quite dull, even some Belgians, I suspect.

[jesimps]

Depends on whether or not they have diplomatic status. If they do, then they can't be touched, but if not, they're theoretically subject to the laws of the land and can be sued. However, the embassy would probably protect them by getting them quickly out of the country if it was serious enough.

[jesimps]

1 hour ago, Arkady said:

A friend worked at the US consulate in Frankfurt and said his grade didn't get full diplomatic immunity for some reason, even though he was a state department hired US diplomat, not locally engaged staff.  One of his colleagues with the same status was arrested by the German police for drunk driving and taken to the police station. He was released without charge when they established he was indeed consular staff but the police reported the incident to the consul-general. The consul-general summarily dismissed him for cause from the foreign service and put him on the next flight back to the US the following day. His personal effects were packed up from his residence and sent on after him.  US diplomats are warned that they will be summarily dismissed for drunken driving offences anywhere in the world. Now they also have random drug tests with the same penalty for anyone testing positive. 

 

In Thailand, however, I don't the police would trouble anyone driving a car with diplo plates.

When I was a low level Brit dip, I had dipomatic status in India, Nepal and Afghanistan, but not in Japan and Australia. Depends on the ambassador to a large extent, but the FCO would never send anyone to what is considered an unstable or unfriendly country without giving them dip cover.

[Sydebolle]

Simple, if the individual sits on a "service passport" or "diplomatic passport", then the person is protected by diplomatic immunity. This however has to be invoked by a diplomatic note of the head of mission, usually the Consul or the Ambassador of the country the consular staff represents.

Anything happening inside a consulate (or embassy for that matter) is extraterritorial as well (see Saudi killing in Turkey); the host country has no jurisdiction over that. 

A honorary consul is acting on behalf of a country and reports to an official consulate or embassy, however the staff might be not covered by diplomatic immunity. 

[moe666]

On my visits to the US consulate in CM I have seen a few people seeking services who became very irate and the officer remained calm I would guess that the person seeking help will blame the officer for his own failure to have all of the paper work needed or is late applying for something.

[AAArdvark]

2 hours ago, Arkady said:

A friend worked at the US consulate in Frankfurt and said his grade didn't get full diplomatic immunity for some reason, even though he was a state department hired US diplomat, not locally engaged staff.  One of his colleagues with the same status was arrested by the German police for drunk driving and taken to the police station. He was released without charge when they established he was indeed consular staff but the police reported the incident to the consul-general. The consul-general summarily dismissed him for cause from the foreign service and put him on the next flight back to the US the following day. His personal effects were packed up from his residence and sent on after him.  US diplomats are warned that they will be summarily dismissed for drunken driving offences anywhere in the world. Now they also have random drug tests with the same penalty for anyone testing positive. 

 

In Thailand, however, I don't the police would trouble anyone driving a car with diplo plates.

Foreign Service employees at embassies or consulates will have one of two types of passports.  One is "official" and the other is "diplomatic".  Neither of these grants diplomatic immunity.  Each embassy creates what is known a diplomatic list.  That list and its size are approved by the host country.  Local employees of the embassy are basically on their own.  The embassy might try to mediate if justified. 

It is true than many countries do not feel it worth while to bother cars with diplomatic plates or people with a diplomatic passport.  Things like parking tickets will wind up at the embassy who will determine if the driver should pay up.

[Lacessit]

Diplomatic immunity.

[smotherb]

Perhaps a little more about the hypothetical situation is needed. 

 

You mentioned defamation of character and non-justifiable threats. Although I am not sure of the legal definition of a justifiable threat; I can fathom a case of defamation of character. 

 

Let me spin a little yarn for you--there is no valuable information in this tale, so go on to the next post if you seek closure. I am waiting for an old buddy to arrive so we can drain this crock of Tullamore Dew and am just killing time.

 

Once upon a time, this acquaintance of mine had gone through a couple of bad marriages and was envious of my relationship with my Filipina wife.  Apparently, in his mind, marrying a Filipina was the answer to a happy life.

 

So, off he went on a two-week trip to Manila and married a girl he met on the streets--his words.  He took her to the US Embassy to start the spousal visa process before he left.  According to him, the consul/embassy employee told him to go home and sober up; that his wife was nothing but a whore. Well, he did admit he met her on the street and she went with him.

 

As I said, he was an acquaintance and this is his story. He asked me about suing the Manila Embassy employee--As I understand it, to prove defamation of character a third party has to be privy to the claim and the claim has to be proven false.  When I confronted him with that statement, he said there was another person in the office when he was told that and that she was not a whore--apparently, he forgot he told me how they met. 

 

He said he went to the State Department when he returned to DC and complained and said he got results. I am not privy to all the results he my have gotten, but he did bring a Filipina to the US some months later--this was in maybe 1984.

 

She did leave him a short while after and she certainly acted like a lady of negotiable virtue--her first question to my wife was, "How much money do you get out of him?"    

 

Well, she left him and he claimed all women were bad--sound familiar?

[Suradit69]

The flag of the foreign country flies over its embassy or consulate because it is considered part of that country. Generally, local police can only enter or enforce local laws at the request of the ambassador which is why in some cases people take refuge in an embassy and stay there for years even when the host country wants to arrest the person.

 

If consular staff without immunity do something outside the embassy or consulate they might be arrested or sued, but unless the ambassador agrees, whatever happens on embassy grounds is not subject to local laws or local courts.

 

Think about what happened to the Saudi journalist in the Saudi embassy in Turkey and the subsequent refusal of the Saudi embassy staff to cooperate until they decided to cooperate minimally after much evidence had disappeared.

[Our Man in the Tropics]

Some more very convincingly authoritatively knowledgeable helpful replies since I was away ;

Thanks for those.

I did give a "like" to each.

 

By the way, when I reckoned that there surely has been many a rape & other sexual assaults at embassies & consulates upon visitors,- I was, as gathered from the context at that particular stage of reflections, referring to the world as a whole ;

Retrograde behavior witnessed of other sorts hint of totally low character that would be tempted to sexually assault when they want to be extra dastardly ;

 

But,- I guess that we shan't consider corrupt female personnel of higher rank capable of that sort of thing in any country of mission.

 

Important to inform the readership that this is a very sincere & warranted thread ;

Increasingly,- there are in the ready dialogues of discerning Falangs & Thai some deadly stories agreed as being truthful & factual of various appalling policy & behavior inflicted by Consulate Personnel upon Visitors, Nationals of the sending Country no less, in at least one particular Consulate mission's premises to Thailand.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Our Man in the Tropics

[simon43]

there are in the ready dialogues of discerning Falangs & Thai some deadly stories agreed as being truthful & factual of various appalling policy & behavior inflicted by Consulate Personnel upon Visitors, Nationals of the sending Country no less, in at least one particular Consulate mission's premises to Thailand.

 

Link please to the report about "one particular mission's premises to Thailand".

[Our Man in the Tropics]

2 hours ago, simon43 said:

 

 

 

Link please to the report about "one particular mission's premises to Thailand".

Dear simon43,

 

There were links on internet giving some information on deadly policy & behavior of at least one particular mission ;

But, alas,- it appears that they have been SENT DOWN THE ORWELLIAN MEMORY HOLE ;

 

 

[simon43]

But, alas,- it appears that they have been SENT DOWN THE ORWELLIAN MEMORY HOLE ;

 

Yea, I thought you might say that......

 

 

[Our Man in the Tropics]

3 minutes ago, simon43 said:

 

 

But, of course, dearest simon43,- ... :

 

Content & URLs have been duly saved by concerned observers

 

the internet is not the only preserve of EVIDENCE ;

And,- categorical Evidence does exist & will forever persist

 

DO U -- to quote the great "actor & film director" Mel Gibson -- HAVE A DOG IN THE FIGHT ?

 

Anyway,- more is the shame that many a non-Thai Consulate does not treat their nationals as Thai Consulates typically treat foreigners, & Thai.

[digbeth]

I know for a fact that Thai staff of foreign consular services don't have to pay tax on their salary, as a Thai national they are required to file a tax return if their income reaches the threshold to do so of course, in most private companies, their income would be reported and tax withheld, but Thai inland revenue can't force the embassies to disclose/comply with that, so if a consular employee claims that they don't earn any money, Thai inland revenue wouldn't be the wiser

[Nip]

According to Transparency International there is a great deal of criminality by Embassy and Consulate employees world wide. Money laundering and the unknown contents of diplomatic bags were mentioned. It was also interesting to note that Honorary Consuls are entitled to the fees they receive for such things as Visas and Embassy Letters?  I also note that some Consuls are operating or operated in Thailand without the Thai DFA's required approval.

[Letseng]

Consular staff has no diplomatic status and protection. Nowadays, they are locally employed staff who either happen to be nationals of the country they work for or just locally employed Thai staff.

But of course they don't work in Thailand but on XX country soil.

If the reason you want to take legal action happened outside the embassy/consulate, they are no different to anybody else.

This was the situation when I worked in this line many moons ago. Has the rule changed?

 

 

[Letseng]

5 hours ago, digbeth said:

I know for a fact that Thai staff of foreign consular services don't have to pay tax on their salary, as a Thai national they are required to file a tax return if their income reaches the threshold to do so of course, in most private companies, their income would be reported and tax withheld, but Thai inland revenue can't force the embassies to disclose/comply with that, so if a consular employee claims that they don't earn any money, Thai inland revenue wouldn't be the wiser

Staff have no tax deducted because they don't work in Thailand when working for an embassy/consulate. 

[Our Man in the Tropics]

3 hours ago, Letseng said:

Consular staff has no diplomatic status and protection. Nowadays, they are locally employed staff who either happen to be nationals of the country they work for or just locally employed Thai staff.

But of course they don't work in Thailand but on XX country soil.

If the reason you want to take legal action happened outside the embassy/consulate, they are no different to anybody else.

This was the situation when I worked in this line many moons ago. Has the rule changed?

 

 

Thank u Letseng for what u convey ;

I value it as very reliable ;

 

However,- I rush to inform from my limited personal experience that not all staff today in Consulates located Thailand are necessarily non-nationals of the sending country

i.e.

some staff, particularly the management seemingly hidden away in part of the Consulate, or perhaps managing remotely from the premises by telephone & computer & fax & video link, I expect are nationals of the country of that very consulate

e.g.

UK nationals of the UK Consulate in respective part of Thailand

 

Re ; CHANCERY

Off-hand,- I am not sure if the term "chancery" applies to :

x_

all "staff" who work in a Consulate

 

OR

 

y_1_

only particular "functions"

 

& / or

 

y_2_

only particular "origins" ; viz. non-nationals of the "sending" country

Edited March 27, 2019 by Our Man in the Tropics

[Our Man in the Tropics]

5 hours ago, Nip said:

According to Transparency International there is a great deal of criminality by Embassy and Consulate employees world wide. Money laundering and the unknown contents of diplomatic bags were mentioned. It was also interesting to note that Honorary Consuls are entitled to the fees they receive for such things as Visas and Embassy Letters?  I also note that some Consuls are operating or operated in Thailand without the Thai DFA's required approval.

1_

For sure,- certain countries consistently send a SPYING Mission as the ostensible innocent Mission to particular countries or indeed ALL countries with main brief to spy on :

1_1_

host country

& / or

1_2_

foreign entities in the host country

 

2_

For sure,- Drug Barons have availed of Diplomats to courier Class A narcotics across jurisdictions.

 

3_

For sure,- certain Embassies & Consulates :

3_1_

connive WITH other Embassies & Consulates & other entities

&

3_2_

connive AGAINST other Embassies & Consulates & other entities

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

So,- the general Diplomatic, & Consular, Culture, & that includes Missions who do not engage in Spook-Shenanigans, must be tainted to some degree ;

 

Anyway,- at least 1 Consulate in Thailand really sucks in a deadly way ;

They should be sued big time.

Plaintiffs should be very generously compensated.

Staff guilty of malfeasance should be fired at least.

Edited March 27, 2019 by Our Man in the Tropics

[Our Man in the Tropics]

Hey "Just Weird",

 

If u see no merit in this thread,- please vamose !

 

U ARE TROLLING !

[HuskerDo]

Go ahead and try to sue them and see how it works out. Get back to us if you have access to a computer after the verdict.

 

One of those …."I'm right behind you but you go first" scenarios. ????   

Edited March 27, 2019 by HuskerDo

[Our Man in the Tropics]

I agree that it would be a very daunting task ;

But,- sometimes u must fight back against Goliaths.

Look at the extra-ordinary people of France standing up against the thugs of M-I-CRON ;

They have no option but to show their umbrage.

 

What exactly do u mean with this statement ? ;

 

"Get back to us if you have access to a computer after the verdict."

[Scott]

Troll posts removed.   If you have no interest in the topic, then please move on.

 

[Nip]

8 hours ago, Our Man in the Tropics said:

1_

For sure,- certain countries consistently send a SPYING Mission as the ostensible innocent Mission to particular countries or indeed ALL countries with main brief to spy on :

1_1_

host country

& / or

1_2_

foreign entities in the host country

 

2_

For sure,- Drug Barons have availed of Diplomats to courier Class A narcotics across jurisdictions.

 

3_

For sure,- certain Embassies & Consulates :

3_1_

connive WITH other Embassies & Consulates & other entities

&

3_2_

connive AGAINST other Embassies & Consulates & other entities

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

So,- the general Diplomatic, & Consular, Culture, & that includes Missions who do not engage in Spook-Shenanigans, must be tainted to some degree ;

 

Anyway,- at least 1 Consulate in Thailand really sucks in a deadly way ;

They should be sued big time.

Plaintiffs should be very generously compensated.

Staff guilty of malfeasance should be fired at least.

I often wondered why certain people became Honorary Consuls. By certain people I mean beligerent unhelpful individuals who can peel an orange with one hand in their trouser pocket. Because apart from minimum expenses, a salary of no more than €1400 per annum why would they do it? Bit like the tourist police volunteers perhaps? It's got to have something to do with money and shakedown on a local level and money laundering and drug carrying on an international level. Anyway embassies should be properly named as Foreign Trade Missions.

[Our Man in the Tropics]

30 minutes ago, Nip said:

I often wondered why certain people became Honorary Consuls. By certain people I mean beligerent unhelpful individuals who can peel an orange with one hand in their trouser pocket. Because apart from minimum expenses, a salary of no more than €1400 per annum why would they do it? Bit like the tourist police volunteers perhaps? It's got to have something to do with money and shakedown on a local level and money laundering and drug carrying on an international level. Anyway embassies should be properly named as Foreign Trade Missions.

And,- not forgetting that there are the Honorary Consul's wives ;

 

While the Honorary Consul is fxxking around the Citizen,

the Honorary Consul's wife is out to play

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Honorary_Consul_(film)

 

 

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085236/

 

 

Edited March 28, 2019 by Our Man in the Tropics

[Mavideol]

23 hours ago, Our Man in the Tropics said:

But, of course, dearest simon43,- ... :

 

Content & URLs have been duly saved by concerned observers

 

the internet is not the only preserve of EVIDENCE ;

And,- categorical Evidence does exist & will forever persist

 

DO U -- to quote the great "actor & film director" Mel Gibson -- HAVE A DOG IN THE FIGHT ?

 

Anyway,- more is the shame that many a non-Thai Consulate does not treat their nationals as Thai Consulates typically treat foreigners, & Thai.

this is getting extremely boring, what's the point that u are trying to make besides wasting people's time