May fights for control as lawmakers aim to seize Brexit process

[SheungWan]

2 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

No, I don't agree. Rees Mogg is looking down the barrel of a soft Brexit or worse, or a General Election that could see the Tories out of office for a very long time. Split parties are seldom rewarded by the electorate. 

No point committing suicide for a cause, and in doing so ensuring that the cause fails. May's deal offers the best way forward ... what they end up with might just be what the ERG claim to want.

For the life of me I cannot understand what extreme Brexiteers are thinking? 

They might be best advised to fall in line given the options but even if they do, there is still the little matter of the DUP. 

[dunroaming]

2 hours ago, talahtnut said:

Commercial adverts eventually persuade the gullible

to buy something they had no idea they wanted.

 

Over the last 3 years the governing elite have used

the same simple method to convince people to remain,

and it has worked like magic.

 

There you have it, our masters have won, but to them,

we are just cows lining up in front of television MSM

to be milked.    A G. Orwell's 'Animal Farm' rerun.

 

It was the leavers who voted to "buy" something but the salesmen just lied about what is was.  The remainers were not voting for anything other than to stay where they were.

 

26 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

No, I don't agree. Rees Mogg is looking down the barrel of a soft Brexit or worse, or a General Election that could see the Tories out of office for a very long time. Split parties are seldom rewarded by the electorate. 

 

No point committing suicide for a cause, and in doing so ensuring that the cause fails. May's deal offers the best way forward ... what they end up with might just be what the ERG claim to want.

 

For the life of me I cannot understand what extreme Brexiteers are thinking? 

 

 

 

Rees Mogg has admitted today that he will reluctantly vote for May's deal because the options appear to be that or no Brexit at all.

[dunroaming]

It is still possible that another Brexit deal could be struck.  A softer one that would work better for the country than May's abysmal attempt.  So I am somewhat surprised that the ERG are rolling over so pathetically.  As a remainer I would prefer that rather than a second referendum.  It's a compromise but the way the country is split another vote would just deepen the divide.

 

A general election should be the obvious call here but who the hell could people trust to deliver what they want from their MPs.  They have all twisted and squirmed and none of them seem capable of playing a straight bat.

[RuamRudy]

18 minutes ago, Benroon said:

(Lifted)

“We have all been on a night out with that mate who when you are in a club says "it's shit here" let's go somewhere else.

“Then when you leave you realise he has no idea where to go and the place you left won't let you back in.

“Without a decent follow up plan, a leave vote could see the UK standing in a kebab shop arguing about whose fault it is.”

I was initially going to post a laughing like but I think that we are truly beyond funny - but the analogy seems apt. 

[bomber]

46 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

It was the leavers who voted to "buy" something but the salesmen just lied about what is was.  The remainers were not voting for anything other than to stay where they were.

 

Rees Mogg has admitted today that he will reluctantly vote for May's deal because the options appear to be that or no Brexit at all.

Mogg has changed his tune upteen times,money was his motive all along...an absolute cretin of a bloke.the TV documentary proved it

[Basil B]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

I was initially going to post a laughing like but I think that we are truly beyond funny - but the analogy seems apt. 

While we are on Beachy Head with our toes dangling over, looking down and some shouting it will be fun on the way dawn while some one else is trying to negotiate more time nice to have something to laugh at.

[bomber]

6 hours ago, aright said:

 German Alarm Grows Over The EU’s Dangerous Ultimatum Terms For Britain

 

 “Europe is well on its way to inflicting huge damage on itself for decades, by the way it has handled the Brexit talks,” said Marcel Fratzscher, head of the German Institute for Economic Research (DIW) in Berlin.

 

https://fortunascorner.com/2019/03/22/german-alarm-grows-over-the-eus-dangerous-ultimatum-terms-for-britain/

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/03/20/german-alarm-grows-eus-dangerous-ultimatum-terms-britain/

Give over man

[aright]

30 minutes ago, bomber said:

Give over man

Your argument isn't with me it's with Marcel Fratzscher but I'm sure you feel more qualified to opinionate than the Head of the German Institute of Economic Research.

Because democracy is low in your requirements for a Democratic Nation State I assume you disagreed with………...

"Parliament is fully justified in rejecting a backstop arrangement that would lock UK in a customs union against its will.  “No sovereign nation could agree to such terms lightly. The Bundestag itself could hardly have voted otherwise in comparable circumstances,” he wrote in Der Spiegel this week."?  and...…..

"Professor Fratzscher says the EU is undermining its own democratic legitimacy by demanding that Westminster MPs swallow the Barnier package with a “gun to their chest” and subject to threats of “catastrophic consequences” after two-thirds have already rejected it."

[Chomper Higgot]

Tory Brexiteers, slimy Rees-Mogg, Gove, Fox and Johnson included ( the Brexiteers who had no Brexit plan, and skulked in the background when they had the chance to take the PM’s job) have come up with an amazing bit of logic.

 

The Theresa May deal (important to pin her name firmly to it) has been unacceptable, a betrayal, worse than remaining, treachery and worse.

 

 

But all of a sudden it becomes acceptable, not by changing the deal, but if the PM agrees a resignation date, on that condition these self serving scum will suddenly approve her ‘Theresa May’s deal.

 

Stating Brexit = Brexit was a rare moment of political foresight.

[Laughing Gravy]

It would seem that the battle maybe lost but the war is not. We will have one foot in the EU and one out. Some posters here have said that it is better to fight from within which may sound honourable but we all know from past experience, the EU doesn't reform and just doesn't allow countries to leave.

 

Either way, I am convinced that this is not the end. Whenever a GE is called you will see a lot of MP's kicked out. I imagine people will say it is a protest vote but whatever you want to call it, there will be a new party that have a clear mandate for getting the UK out of the EU. What this has clearly shown is that MP's can't be trusted. They are self serving and the EU is a protectionist racquet like a wolf in sheep's clothing.

 

Anyway interesting article from the Times today.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/secret-diary-of-an-mp-as-a-remainer-i-say-this-with-the-heaviest-heart-we-must-find-a-way-to-leave-nhrnjfksn

Secret diary of an MP: As a Remainer I say this with the heaviest heart — we must find a way to Leave

Secret diary of an MP

It’s like being back at school. I walked out of the Lobby last night and in the corridors were all these little factions, busily plotting away. Some of them blanked you, others tried to recruit you. A few sent shifty glances in your direction — do you want to be my friend? To this we’ve been reduced. At beyond the 11th hour, we’re suddenly given 48 hours to try to agree on something, anything.It’s a process that so obviously should have started two years ago but the prime minister’s blinkered refusal to consult parliament at any stage of this unfolding nightmare has left us where we are now.

The doomsday timing means that instead of having had months to debate and thrash out all the issues on a constructive, cross-party basis, listening to each other’s points of view before coming to a decision on the genuine red lines for the country and, after that, reaching a consensus on the best way forward, we’re instead expected to work a last-ditch miracle.

Is it possible? I’m doubtful. It’s hard to see how we can now draw back from all those factions because the longer this has gone on, the more fractured we’ve become. Each faction has built its little fortress and they’re not likely to lower the drawbridge. They’ve refined their arguments and they’re all convinced they’re right.

How will I vote tomorrow? I’m a Remain-voting Labour MP whose constituents voted Leave by a large margin. I get hundreds of Brexit emails every day, each demanding something different. Every sender thinks they’re right and seems to believe that I have the power to deliver their wishes. Yeah, right.

 

In truth, I’m torn down the middle. If the 2016 decision to leave the EU had been taken by parliament, then I’d be very much on the front foot, arguing that this would be economic and security suicide because my first job is to safeguard the country. I’ve not come across any argument that’s in any way persuasive or evidence-based that suggests to me that by leaving the EU we’d be in a better position as a country.

 

But it wasn’t parliament’s decision, it was a referendum. The British people voted to Leave and, although we’re not delegates, as a democratically elected MP I don’t believe that morally I have the right to overturn that decision. I think it’s our duty to honour it. I write this with the heaviest of hearts, but I believe we need to find a way to leave the EU.

If it comes to it, I’ll be voting against a second referendum. I’ll vote instead for whatever version of Brexit I think will do the least harm to our nation and to my constituents. My sense is that a customs union and protections around our existing rights is a sensible way forward, because it gets rid of the Irish border issue but also keeps a close relationship with our main trading partner without dropping our standards.

 

I’m fully aware that it may sound like a dereliction of duty to vote for something I don’t believe to be in our nation’s best economic interests, but there’s another vital interest at stake here: the faith of the electorate in our democracy. We promised the British people in 2016 that if they voted to leave the EU, we would leave. It was a democratic vote, the biggest this country has ever held. I don’t believe it’s my right to pick and choose which bits of our democracy I respect.

 

There were yet more casualties of war last night as another three members of the government resigned. It’s horrible to witness because we’re losing an awful lot of good people. Alistair Burt and Richard Harrington were really, really good ministers. They’re decent men and they commanded the respect of the whole House, but due to all the uncertainty, the procrastination and the shameful lack of leadership we’re haemorrhaging these people at an alarming rate.

The MP wishes to remain anonymous

 

[Chomper Higgot]

20 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

It would seem that the battle maybe lost but the war is not. We will have one foot in the EU and one out. Some posters here have said that it is better to fight from within which may sound honourable but we all know from past experience, the EU doesn't reform and just doesn't allow countries to leave.

 

Either way, I am convinced that this is not the end. Whenever a GE is called you will see a lot of MP's kicked out. I imagine people will say it is a protest vote but whatever you want to call it, there will be a new party that have a clear mandate for getting the UK out of the EU. What this has clearly shown is that MP's can't be trusted. They are self serving and the EU is a protectionist racquet like a wolf in sheep's clothing.

 

Anyway interesting article from the Times today.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/secret-diary-of-an-mp-as-a-remainer-i-say-this-with-the-heaviest-heart-we-must-find-a-way-to-leave-nhrnjfksn

Secret diary of an MP: As a Remainer I say this with the heaviest heart — we must find a way to Leave

Secret diary of an MP

It’s like being back at school. I walked out of the Lobby last night and in the corridors were all these little factions, busily plotting away. Some of them blanked you, others tried to recruit you. A few sent shifty glances in your direction — do you want to be my friend? To this we’ve been reduced. At beyond the 11th hour, we’re suddenly given 48 hours to try to agree on something, anything.It’s a process that so obviously should have started two years ago but the prime minister’s blinkered refusal to consult parliament at any stage of this unfolding nightmare has left us where we are now.

The doomsday timing means that instead of having had months to debate and thrash out all the issues on a constructive, cross-party basis, listening to each other’s points of view before coming to a decision on the genuine red lines for the country and, after that, reaching a consensus on the best way forward, we’re instead expected to work a last-ditch miracle.

Is it possible? I’m doubtful. It’s hard to see how we can now draw back from all those factions because the longer this has gone on, the more fractured we’ve become. Each faction has built its little fortress and they’re not likely to lower the drawbridge. They’ve refined their arguments and they’re all convinced they’re right.

How will I vote tomorrow? I’m a Remain-voting Labour MP whose constituents voted Leave by a large margin. I get hundreds of Brexit emails every day, each demanding something different. Every sender thinks they’re right and seems to believe that I have the power to deliver their wishes. Yeah, right.

 

In truth, I’m torn down the middle. If the 2016 decision to leave the EU had been taken by parliament, then I’d be very much on the front foot, arguing that this would be economic and security suicide because my first job is to safeguard the country. I’ve not come across any argument that’s in any way persuasive or evidence-based that suggests to me that by leaving the EU we’d be in a better position as a country.

 

But it wasn’t parliament’s decision, it was a referendum. The British people voted to Leave and, although we’re not delegates, as a democratically elected MP I don’t believe that morally I have the right to overturn that decision. I think it’s our duty to honour it. I write this with the heaviest of hearts, but I believe we need to find a way to leave the EU.

If it comes to it, I’ll be voting against a second referendum. I’ll vote instead for whatever version of Brexit I think will do the least harm to our nation and to my constituents. My sense is that a customs union and protections around our existing rights is a sensible way forward, because it gets rid of the Irish border issue but also keeps a close relationship with our main trading partner without dropping our standards.

 

I’m fully aware that it may sound like a dereliction of duty to vote for something I don’t believe to be in our nation’s best economic interests, but there’s another vital interest at stake here: the faith of the electorate in our democracy. We promised the British people in 2016 that if they voted to leave the EU, we would leave. It was a democratic vote, the biggest this country has ever held. I don’t believe it’s my right to pick and choose which bits of our democracy I respect.

 

There were yet more casualties of war last night as another three members of the government resigned. It’s horrible to witness because we’re losing an awful lot of good people. Alistair Burt and Richard Harrington were really, really good ministers. They’re decent men and they commanded the respect of the whole House, but due to all the uncertainty, the procrastination and the shameful lack of leadership we’re haemorrhaging these people at an alarming rate.

The MP wishes to remain anonymous

 

Nothing to do with setting out on a stupid journey without a plan then?!

[damascase]

2 hours ago, aright said:

Your argument isn't with me it's with Marcel Fratzscher but I'm sure you feel more qualified to opinionate than the Head of the German Institute of Economic Research.

Because democracy is low in your requirements for a Democratic Nation State I assume you disagreed with………...

"Parliament is fully justified in rejecting a backstop arrangement that would lock UK in a customs union against its will.  “No sovereign nation could agree to such terms lightly. The Bundestag itself could hardly have voted otherwise in comparable circumstances,” he wrote in Der Spiegel this week."?  and...…..

"Professor Fratzscher says the EU is undermining its own democratic legitimacy by demanding that Westminster MPs swallow the Barnier package with a “gun to their chest” and subject to threats of “catastrophic consequences” after two-thirds have already rejected it."

Anything that supports the Brexiteers’ blaming the EU is suddenly considered a valuable opinion.........,

[Laughing Gravy]

27 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Nothing to do with setting out on a stupid journey without a plan then?!

Come on Chomps there was a plan. It is just that MPs and the EU won't let it happen, The plan was to leave the CU, SM, ECJ. Even those with hard of hearing heard David Cameton continually tell the British people want leaving the EU was. No point going over old ground.

[JonnyF]

9 hours ago, dunroaming said:

It was the leavers who voted to "buy" something but the salesmen just lied about what is was.  The remainers were not voting for anything other than to stay where they were.

 

Rees Mogg has admitted today that he will reluctantly vote for May's deal because the options appear to be that or no Brexit at all.

The leavers bought something alright, the problem is that the individuals that they employ to deliver it have been driving around the wrong neighborhood for 2 and a half years, got lost, had an argument amongst themselves and then decided they won't bother. 

 

The House of Commons is an embarrassment. What a huge kick in the teeth for democracy in the UK if the largest democratic vote ever is overturned because the people voted in a way that the political establishment did not like. Absolutely shameful.

[Spidey]

2 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Either way, I am convinced that this is not the end. Whenever a GE is called you will see a lot of MP's kicked out. I imagine people will say it is a protest vote but whatever you want to call it, there will be a new party that have a clear mandate for getting the UK out of the EU. What this has clearly shown is that MP's can't be trusted. They are self serving and the EU is a protectionist racquet like a wolf in sheep's clothing.

New party? What new party? UKIP? they have less support now than they ever have had and, even at their height, they managed to get one elected MP and he was a defector from the Tory party. Big mistake for them to allow the party to be taken over by the likes of Tommy Islam. Right minded, decent Brits will not support him and his ilk.

 

Maybe you are thinking of Farage's new party? I don't even know what its called. You can see the level of support he has from his failed march. A few dozen at best. A vote for either party is a wasted vote.

 

The next government will be formed by either Labour or the Conservatives. Hobsons choice again.

[Spidey]

32 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

The leavers bought something alright, the problem is that the individuals that they employ to deliver it have been driving around the wrong neighborhood for 2 and a half years, got lost, had an argument amongst themselves and then decided they won't bother. 

The real problem and the reason that they haven't been able to deliver, is that the address they were given to deliver to didn't exist.

[Laughing Gravy]

24 minutes ago, Spidey said:

New party? What new party? UKIP?

Where did I mention UKIP. putting words in my mouth again. Again I said will, which means in the future, so you will have to wait and see won't you.

 

25 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Maybe you are thinking of Farage's new party? I don't even know what its called. You can see the level of support he has from his failed march. A few dozen at best. A vote for either party is a wasted vote.

 

Only a fool would just a political movement on a march or a signing petition online. once again wait and see as the Brexit saga unfolds.

Personally I believe, a vote isn't wasted, as people have the choice and options. There are many countries who would just appreciate that having a choice. Obviously different from your view, as I assume your suggesting, it should be either Labour or Conservative but they way they are, isn't that a waste too?

[Chomper Higgot]

2 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Come on Chomps there was a plan. It is just that MPs and the EU won't let it happen, The plan was to leave the CU, SM, ECJ. Even those with hard of hearing heard David Cameton continually tell the British people want leaving the EU was. No point going over old ground.

Nearly three years on you don’t know the difference between a ‘pipe dream’ objective and a plan.

 

[Laughing Gravy]

1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Nearly three years on you don’t know the difference between a ‘pipe dream’ objective and a plan.

 

Thanks for that. Another quality post.

[sandyf]

What is the difference between government MPs and parliament MPs, some of the parliament MPs were chosen to exercise control over their former colleagues.

Ironic that the brexiteers tend to favour the unelected being in control.

[sandyf]

Extract from the government response to the petition.

"This Government wrote to every household prior to the referendum, promising that the outcome of the referendum would be implemented. 17.4 million people then voted to leave the European Union, providing the biggest democratic mandate for any course of action ever directed at UK Government."

 

This has been the fundamental problem from day one, distorted interpretation.

17.4 million people voting for something means absolutely nothing if 17.4 million people vote against. A mandate can only come from a majority, and at what point does a majority kick in, one person?, highlights how ridiculous the referendum terms really were.

The government promised to implement something that was a delusional concept at the time and effectively undeliverable, as we are now finding out.

[Laughing Gravy]

12 minutes ago, sandyf said:

The government promised to implement something that was a delusional concept at the time and effectively undeliverable, as we are now finding out.

I don't believe it was a delusional concept. Quite straightforward really. For it to happen you need to have a PM who believes in it. MPs to support her and that is why we have the situation now. She doesn't believe in Brexit, The MPs don't want to implement the referendum result and their constituents (Mostly) wishes. so we are at the point now.

 

It certainly was deliverable. Leaving the SM, CU, ECJ could have been done which is really Brexit and not BRINO. I assume you wouldn't like it, like many MP's but it was deliverable.

[talahtnut]

22 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Extract from the government response to the petition.

"This Government wrote to every household prior to the referendum, promising that the outcome of the referendum would be implemented. 17.4 million people then voted to leave the European Union, providing the biggest democratic mandate for any course of action ever directed at UK Government."

 

This has been the fundamental problem from day one, distorted interpretation.

17.4 million people voting for something means absolutely nothing if 17.4 million people vote against. A mandate can only come from a majority, and at what point does a majority kick in, one person?, highlights how ridiculous the referendum terms really were.

The government promised to implement something that was a delusional concept at the time and effectively undeliverable, as we are now finding out.

'At what point does a majority kick in?' is a poor losers

question. Who would dare to decide? You?

A majority of 1 is a majority, simple maffs.

If remain had won by 1 vote, I doubt you would be arguing

your point.

Brexit was deliverable, otherwise the government wouldn't

have stuck their dirty big oar in. 'As we are now finding out'.

[Spidey]

2 minutes ago, talahtnut said:

Brexit was deliverable, otherwise the government wouldn't

have stuck their dirty big oar in. 'As we are now finding out'.

Cameron thought that it was a nap that we would have voted remain, otherwise he wouldn't have stuck his dirty big oar in. Everyone in government, both leave and remain were gobsmacked when the result was announced. None of them could believe that the British public could be so stupid.

 

The upshot of that was that no one had a plan as how to deliver. In fact, most MPs knew that it was impossible to deliver. Which is why Cameron resigned and "Patsie" May was put in place to carry the can when it all went horribly wrong.

 

The only deal that has come anywhere near to delivering to the people the original promise is the no deal Brexit, but that wouldn't deliver the promise of "to the benefit of the British people" of course.

[talahtnut]

10 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Cameron thought that it was a nap that we would have voted remain, otherwise he wouldn't have stuck his dirty big oar in. Everyone in government, both leave and remain were gobsmacked when the result was announced. None of them could believe that the British public could be so stupid.

 

The upshot of that was that no one had a plan as how to deliver. In fact, most MPs knew that it was impossible to deliver. Which is why Cameron resigned and "Patsie" May was put in place to carry the can when it all went horribly wrong.

 

The only deal that has come anywhere near to delivering to the people the original promise is the no deal Brexit, but that wouldn't deliver the promise of "to the benefit of the British people" of course.

The plan was to go, we just required a 'Belt and braces initiative'.

Chinese style.

[Spidey]

1 minute ago, talahtnut said:

The plan was to go, we just required a 'Belt and braces initiative'.

Chinese style.

And what belt and braces initiative would that be? You've lost me.

[johnnybangkok]

5 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Either way, I am convinced that this is not the end. Whenever a GE is called you will see a lot of MP's kicked out. I imagine people will say it is a protest vote but whatever you want to call it, there will be a new party that have a clear mandate for getting the UK out of the EU. What this has clearly shown is that MP's can't be trusted. They are self serving and the EU is a protectionist racquet like a wolf in sheep's clothing.

 

 

You don't need a 'new party'. The Liberal Democrats, The Green Party and of course the SNP (although you might struggle to find one of their MP's anywhere other than Scotland) all want to remain in the EU.

Perhaps it might be time to give someone else a shot as it certainly couldn't be any worse than Labour and definitely no worse than the Tories.

[Loiner]

You don't need a 'new party'. The Liberal Democrats, The Green Party and of course the SNP (although you might struggle to find one of their MP's anywhere other than Scotland) all want to remain in the EU.
Perhaps it might be time to give someone else a shot as it certainly couldn't be any worse than Labour and definitely no worse than the Tories.

Labour would definitely be worse than the Tories. All three of those would be worse than Labour, or even the Monster Raving Looney Party.


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[aright]

8 hours ago, damascase said:

Anything that supports the Brexiteers’ blaming the EU is suddenly considered a valuable opinion.........,

Like so many Remainers no attempt to take on Professor Fratzscher's argument and try to prove him wrong then, just a thin yellow liquid response.

Denial is the worst form of self indulgence. 

[AlexRich]

6 hours ago, Spidey said:

The real problem and the reason that they haven't been able to deliver, is that the address they were given to deliver to didn't exist.

 

The Leave campaign was conducted as if they didn't have to consider what another side might want ... the EU. It was a case of we get everything that we ask for and they say yes, because they need us more than we need them. So if we want something that means them giving up something that is important them, they will.

 

A more honest campaign would be to tell people that the only way to get everything that you want is a leave on WTO terms without any transition or future agreement, and explain that would involve many years of legal wrangling with the EU and an immense hit on the economy. But no leave campaigner said that. And the reason they never said it was because they knew that option would not get voted for ... that would be a big vote loser.

 

Brexit is a lesson on where lies get you!