U.S. presses Thailand for 'expeditious' announcement of election results

[ramr]

1 hour ago, Jadam said:

IF they want to "move forward" or "grow." Let's not assume that they do.  Perhaps they are happy with things the way they are.

 

I 100% respect that sentiment, but whether they want to or not is becoming increasingly irrelevant.  The changing economic realities of the global and regional economies, combined with an ever-rising world population and shrinking resources---are going to force their hands at some point.  They, like anyone else will adapt or die.

Also, as monocultural as they can seem in their behavior--the idea of a monolothic "they" (i.e. with a clear consensus on what "they" want) does not exist.  A lot of the conflict (and the vote counts) you're seeing is driven precisely by the fact that there increasingly isn't a clear consensus...the rise of a younger generation, a middle class, changing technologies, and knowledge about the outside world courtesy of the internet is something you can't simply put a lid on forever.

 

1 hour ago, Jadam said:

I simply said that there has been more stability under military rule and that Thai people seem to have more respect for the military government. 

I think you confuse "stability" with "apparent stability," just as you do "respect" with "apparent respect."  

 

1 hour ago, Jadam said:

In regards to corruption, it hasn't been eradicated, nor will it ever be, but there haven't been any protests over big kickbacks or secret meetings to approve new projects in the past few years have there?  I certainly haven't seen protestors marching in the streets or shutting down airports, so that's an improvement in my opinion.

So the fact that there are fewer protests is proof there's nothing to protest about?  Or of increased government suppression?  I would say the same things about a discredited and clearly incompetent democracy as well, btw.  For me, it's not necessary about the military ruling a country...it's about THIS military.  I believe there are situations where you do need to have a government that is more controlling and authoritarian, but that usually works best as a bridge or intermediary step towards establishing something more sustainable, given the nature of absolute power to corrupt.

In this time and place they are doing more harm than good, and most Thai people are damn well aware of it but unsure of the next step or perhaps scared of the stability they would need to give up to gain an increased measure of freedom and self-determination.

 

[Grossman]

15 hours ago, Jadam said:

I've been in Thailand during two coups and I maintain that the country is the most stable when under military rule.

I might be a stupid old SOB, but this is something I've never understood. How can a forced silence stemming from self-preservation under all this oppression, all encompassing censorship, guns-pointing-at-you, attitude adjustment looming, biased justice, human rights abuse be considered "stability"? 

 

I have a rather different view of stability. But you're of course allowed your opinion and I respect that, even though I just don't get it.

 

[ramr]

The tldr version of my last post:

1.  What happens when you put a lid on a full pot of soup near its boiling point?  The problem is out of sight....until of course there's a huge, messy problem.

2.  A strong, top-down type of government is more suitable and appropriate for certain peoples, but ONLY when that government is competent and has the best interests of the whole nation at heart.  You can have a despot, just make damn sure they're an *enlightened* despot.

[candide]

16 hours ago, Jadam said:

Democracy has been given chance after chance and every time it has failed.  Whether it's a rigged election or corruption at the top, it has failed again and again.
When protestors shut down the airport in the capital, something's wrong.
The military intervenes to stop the fighting between the protestors and the government.  I've been in Thailand during two coups and I maintain that the country is the most stable when under military rule.

The problems started again during this election and the campaign leading up to it.  The USA is partly to blame for moaning that "It's not a democracy" and punishing Thailand by cutting off military aid.
In the future, problems will escalate until there are protests and then the military will oust the government again.  And then we'll start the whole cycle over.
 

I didn't say democracy doesn't work.  I said it isn't a "One size fits all" universal best option for government and it shouldn't be forced upon countries like Thailand.  Thai people don't respect the results of elections because they are often won by vote-buying or other dishonest measures which ultimately land dishonest politicians to power which they ultimately abuse for personal/family gain.  The rich/educated Thais also get upset when they are outvoted by the "poor stupid" farmers.

 

These are culturally ingrained problems that won't be fixed anytime soon, if ever.  So in my opinion, military rule is better because the government is better able to control problems like corruption.  Thai people also respect the military government more so than they do the elected leaders.

Nice fairy tale

[candide]

17 minutes ago, ramr said:

The tldr version of my last post:

1.  What happens when you put a lid on a full pot of soup near its boiling point?  The problem is out of sight....until of course there's a huge, messy problem.

2.  A strong, top-down type of government is more suitable and appropriate for certain peoples, but ONLY when that government is competent and has the best interests of the whole nation at heart.  You can have a despot, just make damn sure they're an *enlightened* despot.

And about your point 2, if there is a country in which an enlightened despot is absolutely unlikely to be found, it's Thailand. It's 100% sure it will be an incompetent and corrupt despot. Mind you, the best the old elite could find was Prayuth, that says it all! And he did not suddenly appeared on the scene. He has been put on this trajectory some years ago and his teajectory has been confirmed when Abhisit appointed him (actually, it was one of main reasons he did not agree to dissolve the parliament in 2010).

[ramr]

1 hour ago, candide said:

And about your point 2, if there is a country in which an enlightened despot is absolutely unlikely to be found, it's Thailand. It's 100% sure it will be an incompetent and corrupt despot. Mind you, the best the old elite could find was Prayuth, that says it all! And he did not suddenly appeared on the scene. He has been put on this trajectory some years ago and his teajectory has been confirmed when Abhisit appointed him (actually, it was one of main reasons he did not agree to dissolve the parliament in 2010).

Lee Kuan Yew showed us that there is a third way, one that is apparently palatable to the Asian hierarchical mentality and that navigates between overly populist/permissive democracy and overly rigid dictatorship.  Never say never, as unlikely as the emergence of a Thai Lee Kuan Yew looks.  If something like that happens, though, I guarantee this person won't have been Thai-educated.

 

 

[DrTuner]

20 minutes ago, ramr said:

Lee Kuan Yew showed us that there is a third way, one that is apparently palatable to the Asian hierarchical mentality and that navigates between overly populist/permissive democracy and overly rigid dictatorship. 

It fits in the hierarchy level alright. Singapore's PM is the best paid in the world, they managed to establish an elite class and gag orders for mortals, all powered by young labor force coming into the country. It's not what the shiny brochures would like you to believe.

 

http://theindependent.sg/no-surprise-singapores-pm-is-still-the-highest-salary-among-all-world-leaders/

 

Still, an improvement to Thailand, where none of the money gobbled by the 0.1% ever reaches the peasants. At least SG does infra right. 

[ramr]

41 minutes ago, DrTuner said:

It fits in the hierarchy level alright. Singapore's PM is the best paid in the world, they managed to establish an elite class and gag orders for mortals, all powered by young labor force coming into the country. It's not what the shiny brochures would like you to believe.

Well, duh.  When is it ever?  You don't have to drink the Kool Aid to understand that it is quite an improvement over Thailand, save for it being a bit dull, which is an argument for adapting the ideas, but not lifting them wholesale.  What would Thailand be without at least some sanuk, eh?

 

My main point was that a third way is demonstrably possible.

[DrTuner]

1 minute ago, ramr said:

Well, duh.  When is it ever?  You don't have to drink the Kool Aid to understand that it is quite an improvement over Thailand.

Just sayin'. For Singaporeans to move into real democracy from the current state it will be a struggle. That's the flip side of having a "benevolent" dictator, they successors likely aren't as nice and cozy. Slippery slope (no pun intended).

[candide]

2 hours ago, ramr said:

Lee Kuan Yew showed us that there is a third way, one that is apparently palatable to the Asian hierarchical mentality and that navigates between overly populist/permissive democracy and overly rigid dictatorship.  Never say never, as unlikely as the emergence of a Thai Lee Kuan Yew looks.  If something like that happens, though, I guarantee this person won't have been Thai-educated.

 

 

It may also be the exception that confirms the rule. Singapore is a case of an exceptional man in an exceptional country in terms of history, size, geography and culture (to name a few).

There aren't much similar cases. There are also other cases, such S. Korea or Taiwan where evolving towards more democracy has apparently been quite beneficial.

[stevew407]

On 3/27/2019 at 12:24 AM, MaxLee said:

State Department spokesman Robert Palladino

Well I am wondering if there is any way as an Amerian in Argentina that was denied boarding on a Cruise ship to San Diego and now trying to figure out if I will be able to go to Thailand or not with my Thai wife from a village ceremony - there is a lot more to this story and it wants to be TOLD and FIXED but calls to the US Embassy and Congressional Office's get ignored, hung up on or delayed INTENTIONALLY with NO results or support or answers?   SO I was TRYING TO cut and paste to Google Search for contact information and it would only let me quote so I am posting instead and will as always see what happens, would like to TRY to make something SIMPLE and EASY happen (KISS) but it is more of a complicated world for an old man of 66 in love with a beautiful and wonderful Thai woman of 37 two days ago and last night we/she cooked dinner and celebrated one of many friendships around the world, I think governement is more part of the problem than the solutions, wishing they would get better as I dream on and I am sure there are some thoughts and opinions out here/there BUT HOPE there will be a GOOD ONE that gets it done and NOW, or very soon.  Ask if you like about the rest of the story and then what is next???

[zydeco]

34 minutes ago, stevew407 said:

Well I am wondering if there is any way as an Amerian in Argentina that was denied boarding on a Cruise ship to San Diego and now trying to figure out if I will be able to go to Thailand or not with my Thai wife from a village ceremony - there is a lot more to this story and it wants to be TOLD and FIXED but calls to the US Embassy and Congressional Office's get ignored, hung up on or delayed INTENTIONALLY with NO results or support or answers?   SO I was TRYING TO cut and paste to Google Search for contact information and it would only let me quote so I am posting instead and will as always see what happens, would like to TRY to make something SIMPLE and EASY happen (KISS) but it is more of a complicated world for an old man of 66 in love with a beautiful and wonderful Thai woman of 37 two days ago and last night we/she cooked dinner and celebrated one of many friendships around the world, I think governement is more part of the problem than the solutions, wishing they would get better as I dream on and I am sure there are some thoughts and opinions out here/there BUT HOPE there will be a GOOD ONE that gets it done and NOW, or very soon.  Ask if you like about the rest of the story and then what is next???

What?!?!?!?!?