EU to agree Brexit delay but France pushes for conditions

[Basil B]

Flexstation, 9 months? 1 year? far too short unless the EU makes us hold a referendum on whether to continue or revoke... the uncertainty is damaging British Industry.

[Krataiboy]

How much more humiliation is the Prime Minister going to allow to be heaped on her and the nation she is supposed to represent?

 

Stop grovelling to that odious little neo-Napolean Macron and the rest of the EU mafia, Mrs May. Do what you repeatedly have promised and take us out NOW.

 

Otherwise, as you must realise along with the rest of us, we will never leave.

 

[Baerboxer]

5 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

No surprises there then.

 

 

Of course they are worried with very good reason to be.

 

Obviously as a Brexiteer it is clear that the remaining government and MP's do not want to respect the referendum result and manifestos. Maybe a tactical retreat and infiltrate the EU parliament with Brexit MEPs and start afresh with MPs in the UK and get rid of the self serving shower we have.

 

I believe we might have lost this battle for now but not the war, as they say.

 

 

 

 

If you make a decision, that proves to be folly, impossible to implement, and likely to harm yourself far more than benefit, do you keep pushing on stubbornly and relentlessly? 

 

If this answer is "yes" then you may well call yourself a "Brexiteer"!

 

Or do you think again?

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, evadgib said:

...which amply explains why compulsory participation, PR etc will be the long term after effect of Parliaments betrayal.

I certainly agree with compulsory participation, it would go a long way to countering the impacts of the electoral fraud that the Brexit Leave campaign was found guilty of. 

 

I'm not however convinced of the merits of PR, nor do I doubt are many Brexiteers when they understand it would undoubtedly lead to religious groups gaining a proportional representation in Parliament. 

[Chomper Higgot]

8 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

"Is there not a strong candidate to come to the fore and sort this mess out . Someone to say enough is enough and take the UK out of the crumbling EU ."

 

Of course there isn't - they are POLITICIANS - only interested in their own wealth and power ☹️.

To be fair, the politicians ducking this are the Brexit leaders. 

 

[Baerboxer]

2 minutes ago, Krataiboy said:

How much more humiliation is the Prime Minister going to allow to be heaped on her and the nation she is supposed to represent?

 

Stop grovelling to that odious little neo-Napolean Macron and the rest of the EU mafia, Mrs May. Do what you repeatedly have promised and take us out NOW.

 

Otherwise, as you know along with the rest of us, we will never leave.

 

 

She hasn't got the bottle to leave with no deal or revoke Article 50. She isn't a leader. She's always been weak and gone with the side with the most power.

 

Totally out of her depth, with a stubborn streak and lack of vision or imagination. She must rue the day she grabbed the job and called an unnecessary snap election.

[welovesundaysatspace]

11 minutes ago, stevenl said:

You've got to be kidding.

 

So the tweets of one side proof that the other side is bullying.

Not sure what you mean. Their tweets and blogs prove that they are bully boys. The fine gentleman of North East Somerset is finally showing the true colors hiding behind his perfect British accent: a little terrorist who threatens with arson if things don’t go his way. It’ll be the final in the Brexit coffin. Other than the Tommy Robinsons, decent people will not want to be associated with such behavior. 

 

 

 

[malagateddy]

Time that her husband told her to resign as the pm..he would be doing an act of kindness to the love if his wife.

How much more humiliation is the Prime Minister going to allow to be heaped on her and the nation she is supposed to represent?
 
Stop grovelling to that odious little neo-Napolean Macron and the rest of the EU mafia, Mrs May. Do what you repeatedly have promised and take us out NOW.
 
Otherwise, as you know along with the rest of us, we will never leave.
 

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[malagateddy]

Just pass a law forbidding any religious group from participating in any election..local or national etc

I certainly agree with compulsory participation, it would go a long way to countering the impacts of the electoral fraud that the Brexit Leave campaign was found guilty of. 
 
I'm not however convinced of the merits of PR, nor do I doubt are many Brexiteers when they understand it would undoubtedly lead to religious groups gaining a proportional representation in Parliament. 

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[Baerboxer]

8 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

That's where I think you're dead wrong, public confidence in BOTH parties has fallen through the floor, with many people stating they will never vote for their chosen party ever again after this utter mess and treachery. It is easy to see why too. We've watched with incredulity (but, perhaps, not totally unsurprised) as both Tories and Labourites have blithely disregarded the majority of the electorate's wishes and the democratic mandate handed to them, by dithering, delaying and outright sabotaging our ability to Brexit from day one.

 

Both Corbyn and May and many of their cohorts have done their best to undermine the nation's ability to actually leave and initially go to the table with what should have been a strong position. TM undoubtedly had a difficult task and one that seemingly few others wanted, but she has simply been abominable at her job, making u-turn after u-turn and coming back with empty promises and meaningless 'guarantees' to placate an ever-angrier and more divided public. You only need look at the difference between her current stance and the one laid out in her Lancaster house speech to tell you all you need to know about her and that subversive little knave Ollie Robbins, to my mind justifying the suggestions that they are there simply to frustrate Brexit and create the weakest, least meaningful version of it as possible. Corbyn and the Labour party aren't any better either. Only a few months ago you had a majority of the shadow cabinet stating 'Brexit will mean Brexit under labour etc. etc.' and now only a few weeks down the line JC and his motley crew are pushing for ever closer union after leaving, and even this act in the first place is not something the careerist labourites are in favour of, advocating remaining part of the CU and having a 'diluted' version of SM access and all the disadvantages that go with it - ALL of which being expressly against the wishes of the voting majority / the referendum result. Shameful doesn't begin to cover it.

 

 

 

Ahem...  pot, kettle! Sadly this kind of comment typifies the average Remainer's, or just generally uninformed person's view, of the 17.4 million people that voted to Leave. People that had and still have wholly justified concerns about the EU and our continued membership of it - many of whom are educated, informed and reasonable people with a firmly rationalised advocacy of leaving this failing superstate.

 

And 16 million voted not to leave; and a large chunk of the electorate, for whatever reasons, didn't vote.

 

So an advisory referendum result, on a small margin decision, should be implemented. Not exactly in tune with being a representative democracy, is it?

 

And what does "leaving" look like to you? How do you propose to leave, untangle everything and what does your future relationship with the EU look like?

 

 

[Baerboxer]

2 minutes ago, malagateddy said:

Just pass a law forbidding any religious group from participating in any election..local or national etc

 

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You could pass a law forbidding anyone who wanted to remain in the EU or rejoin the EU from participating in any election too.

 

And any other neo-fascist discriminatory laws you fancy.

 

That would sort it!

[Loiner]

Following the tweets and blogs of Jacob Rees-Mogg, Nigel Farage, Marc Francois, leave.eu and so on provides a very clear picture of the bully boys Brexit consists of, thank you. 

Love this one. Just think what kind of Walter the Softy could possibly find Jacob Rees Mogg as Lord Snooty to be a bully.

[Baerboxer]

22 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Following the tweets and blogs of Jacob Rees-Mogg, Nigel Farage, Marc Francois, leave.eu and so on provides a very clear picture of the bully boys Brexit consists of, thank you. 

 

It's true. Clowns like Farage and scheming untrustworthy selfish billionaires like Rees-Mogg thought they were clever threatening the EU with disruption. 

 

Democracy isn't, never has been and never will be their end game. And so many can't see how they're being used!

[Basil B]

2 hours ago, evadgib said:

For as long as we're in we have a veto. I cannot see UK accepting a gagging order ... but nothing would surprize me of late ????

I can understand why the EU is thinking of a No Veto for the UK and other sanctions to prevent the UK holding the EU to ransom but I doubt it legal just like the UK not participating in the EU elections.

 

Violet Elizabeth May "I will Scream and scream until I make you all sick"

 

 

[Baerboxer]

4 minutes ago, Loiner said:

Love this one. Just think what kind of Walter the Softy could possibly find Jacob Rees Mogg as Lord Snooty to be a bully.

 

Rees-Mogg is the ultra right wing typical bully. He'll neuter you financially and then squeeze you back into place. And if you don't go quietly he'll pay others to make sure you do.

 

WW1 staff officer mentality: we've got to make sacrifices and accept the daily casualty rates. As long as it's not the better people of course.

[Loiner]

Not sure what you mean. Their tweets and blogs prove that they are bully boys. The fine gentleman of North East Somerset is finally showing the true colors hiding behind his perfect British accent: a little terrorist who threatens with arson if things don’t go his way. It’ll be the final in the Brexit coffin. Other than the Tommy Robinsons, decent people will not want to be associated with such behavior. 
 
 
 

We need Tommy to sort out both sides politicians and the EU. He has a knack of uncovering crime and subversion, who was responsible and who covers things up.
Decent people support him in that wholeheartedly. Those who are subjugated to follow the elite’s official line, sneer and snipe from the sidelines.

[Krataiboy]

23 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

She hasn't got the bottle to leave with no deal or revoke Article 50. She isn't a leader. She's always been weak and gone with the side with the most power.

 

Totally out of her depth, with a stubborn streak and lack of vision or imagination. She must rue the day she grabbed the job and called an unnecessary snap election.

Some of us have always had her tagged as an EU collaborator. Recent events are proving us right.

[malagateddy]

Behave yourself..religion should not play any part in politics.
Just imagine this scenario
as mp's of the future in the haunted house of spivs down london way.

50 roman catholic " ultras "
50 protestant " ultras "
50 jewish " ultras "
50 islamic " ultras "
50 wee free " ultras "..n/w scotland
So on..so forth.

It would be both a laugh and very dangerous for the UK population.

Little scenario..a wee free mp says to an islamic mp..com'mon and have a chat in the members bar..it's happy hour time.[emoji6]

 
You could pass a law forbidding anyone who wanted to remain in the EU or rejoin the EU from participating in any election too.
 
And any other neo-fascist discriminatory laws you fancy.
 
That would sort it!

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[Basil B]

9 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

You could pass a law forbidding anyone who wanted to remain in the EU or rejoin the EU from participating in any election too.

 

And any other neo-fascist discriminatory laws you fancy.

 

That would sort it!

If people are unsure of just how democracy can be undermined by misinformation and fear they should read up on the Politics of 1930's Germany... 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

25 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

And 16 million voted not to leave; and a large chunk of the electorate, for whatever reasons, didn't vote.

 

So an advisory referendum result, on a small margin decision, should be implemented. Not exactly in tune with being a representative democracy, is it?

 

And what does "leaving" look like to you? How do you propose to leave, untangle everything and what does your future relationship with the EU look like?

 

 

 

'Not exactly in tune with being a representative democracy, is it?' Yes it is actually - as the foundation of democracy is still majority rule. What IS NOT in tune with representative democracy is constituency MPs voting against the wishes of the majority of their constituents - something we've seen rather a lot of recently.

 

This decision was arrived at with a very clear majority of nearly 1.5m people. There is simply no argument against it if you believe in the democratic process.

If you want to try to make the case for supermajorities - OK, but in that case then perhaps compulsory voting also needs to be implemented?

 

If you go down the road of overturning referenda because the majority wasn't 'large enough' for certain people's liking (i.e.: those who's vote was the losing one) then where do you stop? Do we re-run every parliamentary, general, national, local or by-election on the same basis? Laughable. No, it simply needs to be accepted by those millions who didn't get their way that this is the mechanism of democracy - flawed as it may be at times, but it's the best and fairest we have - and it's based on majority rule. The legitimacy of the referendum is a completely different subject, whether it was 'advisory' or legally binding is, in reality, totally irrelevant. If ANY government sends out tens of millions of leaflets (at significant cost to the taxpayer) explicitly stating that the 'decision of the public will be implemented' then I think it's constitutional legitimacy is actually secondary. If we as an electorate are to have any faith whatsoever in our political system, such promises must be delivered, not reneged on - simple as that. 

 

Personally, I think a referendum probably wasn't the best way to settle this argument, but let's be fair a GE was held that confirmed the mandate and the majority of MPs then voted in favour of triggering article 50, so we had two further national and parliamentary confirmations of the first result, don't forget.

 

As for 'what does leaving look like?', to me - and an increasing number of people, it looks like simply exiting the SM, CU and jurisdiction of the European Courts of Justice, withdrawing from membership fully and totally and making our own way in the world as a sovereign state once again. As more and more member states will desire to do in the coming years I'm quite sure - IF the EU exists as a functioning organisation for that long. This could have been such an easier process than it has become, I think that much is unquestionable, yet we have people now criticising Brexit for being so completely flawed and unattainable that we should just give up. Seems perfectly clear that this was the aim of certain people in high places all along - frustrate Brexit as much as humanly possible so that the nay-saying Remainers in power have an increasingly valid platform to criticise from. I'm astounded more people don't see this. As for the whole 'now we know how difficult it will be and how much worse off we will be, we can make an informed decision with a 2nd referendum' - again, this is so absurd it beggars belief - how can such comments be made and taken seriously before we actually leave!? ????

 

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

28 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

She hasn't got the bottle to leave with no deal or revoke Article 50. She isn't a leader. She's always been weak and gone with the side with the most power.

 

Totally out of her depth, with a stubborn streak and lack of vision or imagination. She must rue the day she grabbed the job and called an unnecessary snap election.

Not at all.  I'm sure she'll be handsomely rewarded with directorships/consultancies etc. by big business in the future - in view of her sterling work preventing brexit....

 

Edit - Despite her stupid decision to immediately call another referendum, with crap policies that led to a tory 'defeat'.

[Basil B]

14 minutes ago, Loiner said:

Love this one. Just think what kind of Walter the Softy could possibly find Jacob Rees Mogg as Lord Snooty to be a bully.

One recent mind change has been the conception that a bully is big muscular person who uses their fists to get their own way, now it is accepted there are many ways of bullying and RJM banging on May's door saying "do as I say or our gang is going to trash your beloved Tory Party" is one,

[dick dasterdly]

21 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

You could pass a law forbidding anyone who wanted to remain in the EU or rejoin the EU from participating in any election too.

 

And any other neo-fascist discriminatory laws you fancy.

 

That would sort it!

You are seriously going to compare religious groups with secular groups???

[malagateddy]

If people are unsure of just how democracy can be undermined by misinformation and fear they should read up on the Politics of 1930's Germany... 

They could also read the statement of the infamous jean monnet about lying to the people in order to achieve the aim..the aim being " a united states of europe ".



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[dick dasterdly]

13 minutes ago, Basil B said:

One recent mind change has been the conception that a bully is big muscular person who uses their fists to get their own way, now it is accepted there are many ways of bullying and RJM banging on May's door saying "do as I say or our gang is going to trash your beloved Tory Party" is one,

Don't be silly.

 

JRM was prepared to vote for the eu/may deal to 'hold the party together'.

 

Please don't misunderstand me, as I've no doubt JRM is as self-interested as all the other MPs - and he certainly doesn't want a collapse of the tory party.

[superal]

42 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

That's where I think you're dead wrong, public confidence in BOTH parties has fallen through the floor, with many people stating they will never vote for their chosen party ever again after this utter mess and treachery. It is easy to see why too. We've watched with incredulity (but, perhaps, not totally unsurprised) as both Tories and Labourites have blithely disregarded the majority of the electorate's wishes and the democratic mandate handed to them, by dithering, delaying and outright sabotaging our ability to Brexit from day one.

 

Both Corbyn and May and many of their cohorts have done their best to undermine the nation's ability to actually leave and initially go to the table with what should have been a strong position. TM undoubtedly had a difficult task and one that seemingly few others wanted, but she has simply been abominable at her job, making u-turn after u-turn and coming back with empty promises and meaningless 'guarantees' to placate an ever-angrier and more divided public. You only need look at the difference between her current stance and the one laid out in her Lancaster house speech to tell you all you need to know about her and that subversive little knave Ollie Robbins, to my mind justifying the suggestions that they are there simply to frustrate Brexit and create the weakest, least meaningful version of it as possible. Corbyn and the Labour party aren't any better either. Only a few months ago you had a majority of the shadow cabinet stating 'Brexit will mean Brexit under labour etc. etc.' and now only a few weeks down the line JC and his motley crew are pushing for ever closer union after leaving, and even this act in the first place is not something the careerist labourites are in favour of, advocating remaining part of the CU and having a 'diluted' version of SM access and all the disadvantages that go with it - ALL of which being expressly against the wishes of the voting majority / the referendum result. Shameful doesn't begin to cover it.

 

 

 

Ahem...  pot, kettle! Sadly this kind of generalised comment typifies the average Remainer's, or just generally uninformed person's view, of the 17.4 million people that voted to Leave. People that had and still have wholly justified concerns about the EU and our continued membership of it - many of whom are educated, informed and reasonable people with a firmly rationalised advocacy of leaving this failing superstate.

        Regarding your first few lines there has to be some form of redress when manifestos or political promises , that persuaded the public vote , are not delivered or at least attempted  .

As I have said before , what is the point in voting . I return to the UK soon and if I have a political canvasser knocking on my door the conversation will last for 20 seconds and that will be enough time to tell them what I feel and slam the door closed .

[Loiner]

One recent mind change has been the conception that a bully is big muscular person who uses their fists to get their own way, now it is accepted there are many ways of bullying and RJM banging on May's door saying "do as I say or our gang is going to trash your beloved Tory Party" is one,

The Beano was visionary. Walter is the epitome of a Snowflake Remainer. Even the senior politicians have no spine, either in public life or the HP. Certainly not when dealing with those bigger boys over the channel.

[beautifulthailand99]

2 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I guess that's your version of democracy is it. you will do well in the EU council. So what about elections in the EU states, should they all have a 2/3rds majority. Seems whats good for the goose is good for the gander right.

 

So what happens if  we leave with no deal. OK then? I keep hearing this mantra of being better informed about leaving the EU. The only thing that we have been informed about the whole referendum result, is that the MP's do not want to act upon it and the EU have done their very best (successfully so far) to stop us leaving.

 

What happens if leave win again and if the referendum was to happen and it was fair, why wouldn't they. if they do win what will you do.  Go for a third or even fifth.

No more referenda please, we have had more than enough of them to last me for my lifetime.

[malagateddy]

Just tell them to go forth and multiply

        Regarding your first few lines there has to be some form of redress when manifestos or political promises , that persuaded the public vote , are not delivered or at least attempted  .
As I have said before , what is the point in voting . I return to the UK soon and if I have a political canvasser knocking on my door the conversation will last for 20 seconds and that will be enough time to tell them what I feel and slam the door closed .

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[Basil B]

1 minute ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

No more referenda please, we have had more than enough of them to last me for my lifetime.

Your not Swiss then...