Visa free travel in EU

[durhamboy]

My Thai wife has FLTR in the UK (till 2020) and a UK Residence Permit (BRP) which says "Spouse/Partner" under type of permit. We would like to take a short holiday together to Holland and Belgium in September. Assuming Brexit has not happened by then - does she need a schengen visa? 

 

Apologies if this question has been asked before (couldn't find an exact match when I did a search). I've researched various websites and they have conflicting advice. The more "reliable" websites say a visa is not required for the spouse of a UK citizen with a residence permit stating that he/she is a "family member of an EU/EEA national" My wife's BRP implies this but does not expressly state it. I suppose it could be interpreted that she may be the spouse of someone who is not an EU/EEA national but who has the right to live in the UK.

 

Anyone had recent experience of travelling with their spouse/partner to the EU in similar circumstances?

 

A few years ago (before BRPs I think) the advice was be on the safe side and get a visa (which should be free). However the Dutch embassy talks about applying in person in London for a visa which is a long way from where we live.

 

Any thoughts would be appreciated. Many thanks.

[anon7854]

Your wife is still required to get a Schengen visa to travel to the Netherlands as she doesn't have a a full UK passport , BOTC , BOC, BPP or BS passport . The fact that she is your wife  or that she holds a BRP really means nothing. The residence permit doesn't make you a citizen. PERIOD!

 

 

https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/who-needs-schengen-visa/

 

You answer is in the last paragraphs.

[rasg]

Anon is right that it doesn't make your wife a citizen.

 

What it does as she has a BRP and she is married to you and you are traveling together it means that you are entitled to a free, expedited Schengen visa providing minimal paperwork and you should be able to get it directly from the Dutch Embassy. Look on their website.

 

My wife got one while we waited from the Danish Embassy back in 2016. It was for a holiday for Iceland. Has Brexit made a difference? I don't know but the Dutch are one of the more enlightened of the EU members when it comes to Schengen visas.  

[durhamboy]

Thanks for your replies. With respect, I don't think it is as simple as you say. If you look at the website https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/apply-from-uk/ it says the following :-

"Does the spouse of British national with UK permanent residence need a Schengen visa?

Yes, the non-EU spouse of a UK national requires a visa to travel to the Schengen Area. However, if the following conditions are met then they are not required a visa:

• The spouse holds a UK Residence Permit that states that the holder is a family member of an EU/EEA National.
• Travelling with or joining the EEA/EU spouse."

 

Furthermore, if you look at the EU Directive 2004/38/EC on Free Movement - https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:32004L0038 - Article 5 says the following :-

 

"

Right of entry

1.   Without prejudice to the provisions on travel documents applicable to national border controls, Member States shall grant Union citizens leave to enter their territory with a valid identity card or passport and shall grant family members who are not nationals of a Member State leave to enter their territory with a valid passport.

No entry visa or equivalent formality may be imposed on Union citizens.

2.   Family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national law. For the purposes of this Directive, possession of the valid residence card referred to in Article 10 shall exempt such family members from the visa requirement.

Member States shall grant such persons every facility to obtain the necessary visas. Such visas shall be issued free of charge as soon as possible and on the basis of an accelerated procedure.

3.   The host Member State shall not place an entry or exit stamp in the passport of family members who are not nationals of a Member State provided that they present the residence card provided for in Article 10.

4.   Where a Union citizen, or a family member who is not a national of a Member State, does not have the necessary travel documents or, if required, the necessary visas, the Member State concerned shall, before turning them back, give such persons every reasonable opportunity to obtain the necessary documents or have them brought to them within a reasonable period of time or to corroborate or prove by other means that they are covered by the right of free movement and residence.

5.   The Member State may require the person concerned to report his/her presence within its territory within a reasonable and non-discriminatory period of time. Failure to comply with this requirement may make the person concerned liable to proportionate and non-discriminatory sanctions."

 

Therefore, to paraphrase, it seems that a family member (which includes a foreign spouse) does not require a visa if they have a valid residence card. The nagging question in my mind is whether the UK Residence Permit is a valid residence card or not. If not, then there is also the backstop (pardon the word!) of proving the spouse's status at the entry border to the schengen area (provided check-in staff at UK airports allow boarding of the plane).

 

The reason I am anxious not to have to get a free of charge visa for my wife is that I think she would need to have a 500 mile roundtrip to London to apply for the bloody thing.

 

Surely there must be some active members in this forum who have tried to go to the EU for a holiday without first getting a visa. Thanks.

 

[Donutz]

See the Schengen sticky topic:

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/724180-schengen-visa-faq-when-applying-from-thailand/

 

----

I am a family member (spouse, child) of an EU/EEA citizen:
If the applicant is travelling to another Schengen member state then the one that your EU family member is a national of, and you are travelling together or the non EU/EEA national family member is travelling to join the EU/EEA national family member, then you are entitled to a FREE visa which should be granted swiftly (accelerated procedure) and with minimum hassle. Your application falls under directive 2004/38/EC regarding the Freedom of Movement. A minimum of documentation and requirements apply.
It's important to know who qualifies as a family member of an EU/EEA citizen though.

Who qualifies?: 
The non-EU spouse, (grand)children or (grand)parents. And only If they will be travelling together with you, or joining you in another EU country then the country you are a citizen of. Your registered partner and extended family - siblings, cousins, aunts, uncles, and so on - can ask the authorities in an EU country to officially recognise them as family members of an EU national. EU countries do not have to recognise them as your family members but they do at least have to consider the request.
Example: a German and his Thai spouse have to apply for a regular C type visa if they are applying for a stay in Germany. If they would go on holiday to Spain for instance, they would be able to apply for the EU/EEA family member visa.

Requirements:
A minimum of documentation and requirements apply: travel insurance is not required, hotel bookings are not required, transport bookings (flight) is not required etc. For a spouse the marriage certificate + possibly legalisation by the local ministry of foreign affairs to confirm it's a genuine document + official translation to a language that the embassy can read should be sufficient. Sadly not all embassies apply the Visa Code properly. There should be no need for hotel reservations, insurance or other such things. They may for instance ask that your marriage is registrated in the EU. That most certainly is not a requirement (the EU directive simply requires you to be genuinly married). It could be more efficient to cooperate with such silly demands but if you are unable or unwilling to do so due to cost or time constraints, you would be in your right to point out that the embassy is asking too much.
What is required:
- Show that the applicant (non EU) is first line family of an EU national: provide the marriage certificat (translated if need be, there should be no need to register a Thai marriage in the EU spouse his/her country).
- Provide passports of the both of you so they can ID you.
- Confirmation that the two of you will be traveling together or joining eachother in the member state: declaration by the EU spouse, optionally as extra evidence a reservation for transport to the EU.

It is always best for non-EU family members to be well informed in advance and have all the necessary documents before starting their journey. However, if they arrive at the border without an entry visa, the border authorities should give them the opportunity to prove by other means that they are your family members. If they manage to prove it, they should be issued with an entry visa on the spot.
Further details:

 

---

 

Basically for as long as the UK is in the EU, the Thaise spouse and other direct family members of a UK national traveling to an other EU country can get a visa for free, ASAP via a simplified and expedited procedure. This applies those with a  UK visitor visa and those with a standard UK residence permit/rights. An exception is those people with special rights (Surinder Sighn) , those family members have special rights with a special card that explicitly says 'family member of an EU national'. In these cases they can travel together with the EU national visa free.

 

But for the topic starter a free Schengen visa will be required.

[durhamboy]

Donutz, many thanks for the information. A lot of websites give similar advice although this is somewhat at odds with the websites that I quoted.

 

Where it says "a FREE visa which should be granted swiftly (accelerated procedure) and with minimum hassle." do you know if this means that the spouse still has to attend in person for an interview? If so, then as most people here do not live in London, this would cause a lot of hassle.

 

Once again, many thanks.

[Donutz]

I think these days all embassies require the applicant to come by at their embassy (London) or consulate (elsewhere in the UK), some such as Spain will do their best to force the optional external service provider on you. 

 

They don't do interviews (unless you count asking for confirmation of name and travel destination  as such), they will want to take biometrics (fingerprints and a photo).

 

But since she would need to apply via the embassy or consulate of the country that will be your main destination,  it probably would be best to just check with them (website, possibly e-mail). 

[rasg]

6 hours ago, durhamboy said:

Where it says "a FREE visa which should be granted swiftly (accelerated procedure) and with minimum hassle." do you know if this means that the spouse still has to attend in person for an interview? If so, then as most people here do not live in London, this would cause a lot of hassle.

Yes. The applicant has to attend to supply a photo and fingerprints and there is no way around it.

 

I have heard of a few people who have done it without a visa. A couple have been documented on here and elsewhere. Mainly on the Eurostar but I would be nervous about trying with all the Brexit nonsense going on. And it could cost a lot more than a trip to London, if you bought tickets and then your wife wasn't allowed to travel.

[durhamboy]

Thanks for your advice. I'll email [email protected] to see what they say and I'll post their response if they say anything worthwhile.

 

All seems a bit crazy to me. We're supposed to have free movement in the EU for spouses yet they seem to make it so difficult. My wife has already had her biometrics taken for her UK Residence Card (BRP). I took her to Dubai (UAE) recently. Yes she needed a visa but it was all done online with the minimum of fuss. No personal visit to embassy etc.

 

Frankly I'm beginning to wonder if it is worth it just for a 10 day holiday.

 

Any further comments/experience would be appreciated. Thanks.

[rasg]

The main reason they want biometrics each time is so they know it's the same person applying each time.

 

You could try without one on a ferry trip to France or Holland. At least you won’t have wasted a load of cash if she is turned back.

 

Last year I struggled to find any body who had tried the visa free route and I have no idea if Brexit has changed things. It was probably has with France because they hate us any way. ????

 

You do have alternatives. She can go to Turkey, visa free and there are many other countries a bit further afield where Thais don't need a visa.

 

We went on honeymoon to Jersey a couple of years ago.

[durhamboy]

Thanks rasg. I don't think brexit has changed anything yet. At the moment we are still in the EU (although not the schengen) and therefore the rules should be the same until when and if we leave. We do particularly want to go to Bruges as I have a bit of a history there - I briefly worked for the Common Market in Bruges in the 1970's (ironic isn't it!).

 

The cost of us attending a personal appointment in London is probably more than a couple of cheap air tickets to Holland from where we live so I'm thinking of trying it without a visa. Not sure at the moment.

[theoldgit]

The cost of us attending a personal appointment in London is probably more than a couple of cheap air tickets to Holland from where we live so I'm thinking of trying it without a visa. Not sure at the moment.

That’s of course assuming the carrier would allow your wife to board the flight.

[rasg]

That’s why I only mentioned Eurostar and the ferries. I've only read of one single instance where a couple boarded an aircraft.

[durhamboy]

Thanks rasg. Ferries and Eurostar are not really feasible from where we live. Regarding your previous research a couple of questions :-

1. Do you know if the couple who boarded the plane were allowed entry to their schengen destination? 

2. Do you know of any instances of couples being refused boarding of the airplane?

 

Cheers

[rasg]

I only know of one success where a couple were both allowed to board and if I remember they arrived extremely early with lots of paperwork to make sure they had plenty of time.

 

Here you go. It took a bit of time but I found it. Take a look at the link at the end.

 

Directive 38

See also the visa Handbook found on the EU Home Affairs website:
- site: http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/wh ... dex_en.htm
- handbook: http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/wh ... ted_en.pdf
- the Schengen visa code itself is also found on the EU site.

From about page 83 onwards is a chapter dedicated to EU family member applications.

Under the the Directive your wife would of course be entitled to a free visa, provided that you show you are married, traveling together (or going to join the EU spouse) and they can ID the both of you. There should be no need for bankbooks, insurance, accommodation etc. since all that is irrelevant if you can show that she is your wife.

We boarded the flight to Amsterdam and i thought of what i was going to say to the immigration officer on arrival. I decided i would give our evidence incrementally and only if it was required so i could advise you all what is and is not accepted. We had our marriage certificate, translation of marriage cert, bank statements, council tax bills and driving licences with us to show that we were married and living at the same address. I also had the Directive 38 both in English and Dutch ready to show them of our rights.

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/entry-exit/non-eu-family/index_en.htm

 

[durhamboy]

Thanks rasg, I really appreciate your efforts. 

 

Interestingly the EU Directive 38 does not even mention the word "schengen". It refers to Member States which the UK still is.

 

I am wondering if anyone really knows the answer to this question.

 

I am awaiting a reply from [email protected]. Their automatic response says they try to answer all queries within 48 hours. It's about that now.

 

Also I called the Belgian visa application centre in London (TLS contact). After about 10 mins with no one picking up the call I was advised that they would call me back and the call was cut-off. Two days later and I'm still waiting!

[rasg]

When I was after an appointment directly with the Danish embassy for a Schengen visa for Iceland for my wife they took a while to respond. They then tried to put me through to their visa provider. I had to email at least once more and I was fairly insistent and they relented with an appointment. It helps that we live just outside London and they gave my wife a visa while she waited. FOC too.

[7by7]

On ‎4‎/‎17‎/‎2019 at 3:36 PM, durhamboy said:

Interestingly the EU Directive 38 does not even mention the word "schengen". It refers to Member States which the UK still is.

The directive applies to all EEA members and Switzerland, not just the Schengen states.

 

On ‎4‎/‎17‎/‎2019 at 3:36 PM, durhamboy said:

 

I am wondering if anyone really knows the answer to this question.

@Donutz does, and he has given his reply. @rasg has also related his experience.

 

On ‎4‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 3:50 PM, durhamboy said:

the non-EU spouse of a UK national requires a visa to travel to the Schengen Area. However, if the following conditions are met then they are not required a visa:

• The spouse holds a UK Residence Permit that states that the holder is a family member of an EU/EEA National.
• Travelling with or joining the EEA/EU spouse."

The words "family member of an EU/EEA national" or similar. must appear on her residence permit for her not to need a visa. 

 

Your wife has FLR and so a residence permit issued under the UK immigration rules. Therefore her permit does not say that she is a family member of an EU/EEA national. Only EEA family permits issued under the directive will say that.

 

Even if she did have an EEA family permit, if it was issued by the UK and you are British then she would still need a visa.

 

From Travel documents for non-EU family members 

Quote

Visa exemptions

Your non-EU spouse, (grand) children or (grand) parents do not need to get a visa from the country they are travelling to if:

They have a residence card as an EU family member, issued under EU rules by any EU country (except the country you are a national of), and they are travelling together with you or travelling to join you in another EU country. The residence card should clearly state that the holder is a family member of an EU national.

(7by7 emphasis)

 

However, it should be possible for her to obtain that visa at her port of entry:

Quote

Arriving at the border without an entry visa

It is always best for your non-EU family members to be well informed in advance and have all the necessary documents before starting their journey.

However, if they arrive at the border without an entry visa, the border authorities should give them the opportunity to prove by other means that they are your family members. If they manage to prove it, they should be issued with an entry visa on the spot.

 As that says, to avoid delays, or even, as @theoldgit said, being denied boarding by your airline, it is best for her to obtain the "necessary documents" such as a visa in advance before you travel.

[durhamboy]

7by7 "The directive applies to all EEA members and Switzerland, not just the Schengen states."

My response - yes agreed. The point I was trying to make was that the directive makes no mention of the Schengen states anywhere and therefore there are no exceptions for member states who are not part of the schengen.

 

7by7 "Donutz does, and he has given his reply."

My response - with great respect to Donutz, what he posted was what some websites say but is at odds with the 2 websites I quoted.

 

7by7 "Your wife has FLR and so a residence permit issued under the UK immigration rules. Therefore her permit does not say that she is a family member of an EU/EEA national. Only EEA family permits issued under the directive will say that."

My response - Her permit says "Spouse/Partner", she has the same family name as me and we are travelling together. Is that not proof positive that she is a family member of an EU/EEA national?

 

7by7 "

  Quote

Visa exemptions

Your non-EU spouse, (grand) children or (grand) parents do not need to get a visa from the country they are travelling to if:

They have a residence card as an EU family member, issued under EU rules by any EU country (except the country you are a national of), and they are travelling together with you or travelling to join you in another EU country. The residence card should clearly state that the holder is a family member of an EU national.

(7by7 emphasis)"

My response - Your quote comes from an advisory EU website. However, no where in the actual EU Directive 38 (including Article 10 which defines "issue of residence cards") can I see the words you highlighted or indeed any words that could be construed as such.

 

7by7 I am not saying that you, Donutz or anyone else is wrong about this. You may well be correct. What I am saying is that it is not clear and there does not, as yet, appear to be a definitive answer. If, as you say, my wife should be entitled to her free visa at our point of entry then why make people go through all the hoops of online visa applications and appointments in London for biometrics etc.?

 

 

 

[rasg]

You are right but I can tell you that Donutz really knows his stuff on this.

 

In the end, should you choose to risk travelling with your wife without a Schengen visa, be prepared to be disappointed if you are turned away. I bet you won't get your flight ticket money back.

 

On the ferry or via the tunnel you might be lucky but with Brexit etc it may have changed attitudes too.

[Donutz]

Provided one reaches the border, and with evidence that the couple is eligible  (legal and genuine marriage), they should issue a visa on the spot. But for most transport options there is a pre-boarding check by the carrier far away from the actual border.  They won't let you board without visa. Plus that the authorities wouldn't be too happy about hordes of people applying at the border, they would not have the staff and time to deal with it on the spot. So everything is pushing towards a visa application well in advance. But for some ferries, and if you are prepared with all necessary documents  and willing to take a gamble, then you could indeed take the route of asking for a visa on the spot at the border.  But because the system isn't really set up to cater that approach, the EU advices it's citizens and their eligible family members to not opt for this if at all possible. 

[7by7]

@durhamboy

 

The Freedom of Movement directive makes no mention of the Schengen agreement for the simple reason that whilst all Schengen states are members of the EU, not all EU members are members of Schengen; the UK and RoI are not. Nether are the EEA states. Yet all these are covered by the FoM directive.

 

You wife's residence permit says she is a spouse/partner, but not who that spouse partner is. That she is travelling with you and you have the same surname does not prove that she is your spouse/partner. She may be that of your American cousin!

 

The guidance I linked to and quoted earlier is based upon the directive itself

Quote

Article 5 para 2

2.   Family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national law. For the purposes of this Directive, possession of the valid residence card referred to in Article 10 shall exempt such family members from the visa requirement.

 

Article 10 para 1

1.   The right of residence of family members of a Union citizen who are not nationals of a Member State shall be evidenced by the issuing of a document called "Residence card of a family member of a Union citizen”.....................….

 Your wife's FLR residence permit is not a residence card of a family member of a Union citizen. It makes no mention of her being so anywhere on it and was issued under the UK's immigration rules, not the EEA regulations.

 

If it were, it would look like this:

 

She needs a visa, and for the reasons amply explained by others, it is best if she obtains this before you travel.

 

But you do not need to travel to London; there are Netherlands visa application centres in Manchester and Edinburgh. Surely, based on your usernbame, one of those is closer. See EU/EEA and Swiss national family member. 

 

 

[durhamboy]

Thanks rasg and donutz for your practical advice. It's certainly true that no one wants to be prevented from embarking at a UK port of departure through not having a visa.

 

The schengen area has been in existence for 24 years (since 1995) and the EU directive 38 on free movement commenced 15 years ago (2004). So this is obviously not a new thing and therefore you would expect to find a definitive answer quite easily. Could it be that there are vested interests in the UK and/or EU who would prefer not to tell non-EU citizens that they also have the right of free movement when travelling with a family member who is an EU citizen? Just a thought.

[7by7]

19 minutes ago, durhamboy said:

The schengen area has been in existence for 24 years (since 1995) and the EU directive 38 on free movement commenced 15 years ago (2004).

 The 2004 directive contains nothing new. What it did is bring all the various regulations in many other directives into one place. See para 4 of the preamble.

 

There is no hidden agenda by anyone; the rules and requirements as well as the rights of EU/EEA/Swiss nationals and their family members are there for all to see, both in the actual directive and the guidance linked to earlier.

[durhamboy]

Thanks 7by7 for your comments. I would comment further :-

 

1. You say my wife could be my American cousin (!!!!). Ok probably you meant to say Thai cousin as she has a Thai passport. I would obviously take our marriage certificate with us and an official translation.

 

2. Yes the guidance you quoted is based upon the directive but it is not the directive itself and the words that you highlighted are, as far as I can see, not in the directive nor are there any similar words.

 

3. You say "Your wife's FLR residence permit is not a residence card of a family member of a Union citizen. It makes no mention of her being so anywhere on it and was issued under the UK's immigration rules, not the EEA regulations."

So what does "Spouse/Partner" mean to you especially when we have the same name and we are travelling together with our marriage cert? Yes her card is issued under UK's immigration rules but isn't that true of all (or perhaps nearly all) cards issued in the EU i.e. they are issued under the immigration rules of the respective countries where they live? By the way, where did you get that sample residence card, from what website?

 

4. Furthermore you say quite categorically that she needs a visa. So would that also include a visa on arrival?

 

Btw, my username gives no indication as to where I live and it shouldn't be inferred that it does.

[durhamboy]

Thanks again 7by7. It seems our posts are crossing over and therefore may appear out of sequence.

 

You say that there is no hidden agenda by anyone. That is a pretty bold statement. I merely suggested that there may be vested interests in play.

 

You further say that the rules and regulations are there for all to see in the actual directives and guidance. Problem is that the directive (38) and the guidance are not entirely in sync therefore causing confusion. 

[rasg]

2 minutes ago, durhamboy said:

4. Furthermore you say quite categorically that she needs a visa. So would that also include a visa on arrival? 

 

Btw, my username gives no indication as to where I live and it shouldn't be inferred that it does.

She does need a visa. 7by7 is suggesting that she gets a visa in advance. As I said to you in an earlier post, if you do decide to try and just turn up, be prepared to be disappointed.

 

My wife's BRP says Spouse/partner, Leave to remain.

 

I thought it was a reasonable assumption that you live in Durham too and Manchester and Edinburgh would be closer options. ????

[7by7]

49 minutes ago, durhamboy said:

1. You say my wife could be my American cousin (!!!!). Ok probably you meant to say Thai cousin as she has a Thai passport. I would obviously take our marriage certificate with us and an official translation.

Read my post again: I did not say that she may be your American cousin; I said she may be the spouse/partner of your American cousin. I said this because her FLR residence permit does not name you, so she could be the spouse/partner of someone else who may not necessarily be British, another EU/EEA national or Swiss.

 

Your marriage certificate does prove your relationship, and that may satisfy immigration at your port of entry to The Netherlands; but will it satisfy your airline's check in staff who probably aren't fully aware of the requirements? If it doesn't, then your wife will not be allowed to board. Want to take that chance?

 

56 minutes ago, durhamboy said:

2. Yes the guidance you quoted is based upon the directive but it is not the directive itself and the words that you highlighted are, as far as I can see, not in the directive nor are there any similar words.

 

I originally linked to and quoted from the guidance to keep it simple; but have linked to and quoted from the directive itself since.

 

Here is that link again, this time with the full title so you cannot confuse it with the guidance.: DIRECTIVE 2004/38/EC OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL of 29 April 2004 on the right of citizens of the Union and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States amending Regulation (EEC) No 1612/68 and repealing Directives 64/221/EEC, 68/360/EEC, 72/194/EEC, 73/148/EEC, 75/34/EEC, 75/35/EEC, 90/364/EEC, 90/365/EEC and 93/96/EEC

 

Both the guidance and the directive itself clearly state that your wife needs a visa, whether obtained in advance or at the border, due to her having a UK residence card as the spouse/partner of an unnamed individual, not as a family member of a Union citizen.

 

I have quoted from the directive to show that the words "family member of a Union citizen" must appear on that residence card.

 

To be honest, I can't be arsed to trawl through the directive to see if the words "except the country you are a national of" or similar appear because she does not have a residence card as a family member of a Union citizen and so needs a visa anyway.

 

1 hour ago, durhamboy said:

3. You say "Your wife's FLR residence permit is not a residence card of a family member of a Union citizen. It makes no mention of her being so anywhere on it and was issued under the UK's immigration rules, not the EEA regulations."

So what does "Spouse/Partner" mean to you especially when we have the same name and we are travelling together with our marriage cert? Yes her card is issued under UK's immigration rules but isn't that true of all (or perhaps nearly all) cards issued in the EU i.e. they are issued under the immigration rules of the respective countries where they live? By the way, where did you get that sample residence card, from what website?

A member's  immigration rules are separate and apart from their EEA regulations. The latter applies to EEA and Swiss nationals and their qualifying family members and are based upon, and include all the requirements of, the FoM directive. The former are not and are set and amended by the individual member state's government with no need to comply with any EU ruling or directive whatsoever. Although the rules and requirements are the same for all the Schengen states they are applied without reference to the FoM directive unless the applicant is a qualifying family member of an EWU/EEA/Swiss national.

 

Your wife's FLR residence permit was issued under the UK immigration rules, not the UK's EEA regulations. If it had been issued under the EEA regulations it would have the words "family member of a Union citizen" on it! Does it?

 

"Spouse/partner" means what it says. As I said before, that you have the same name does not prove she is your spouse/partner. Leaving possible American cousins aside, I have the same surname as my brother's wife; but she is not my spouse/partner!

 

She would also have exactly the same residence card with exactly the same wording on it were she the wife of a non Brit, e.g. American, who had ILR in the UK. 

 

I took the picture of the residence card from page 10 of the government's An employer’s guide to acceptable right to work documents. 

 

1 hour ago, durhamboy said:

4. Furthermore you say quite categorically that she needs a visa. So would that also include a visa on arrival?

Yes, and I have always said as much!

On ‎4‎/‎19‎/‎2019 at 11:37 AM, 7by7 said:

However, it should be possible for her to obtain that visa at her port of entry

 

But as I have said, theoldgit has said, Donutz, rasg has said; getting to the port of entry may not be possible as your airline may refuse to board her without a visa!

 

Want to take that chance?

1 hour ago, durhamboy said:

You say that there is no hidden agenda by anyone. That is a pretty bold statement. I merely suggested that there may be vested interests in play

What vested interests?

 

Why would anyone want to hide the facts; even though your wife needs a visa, it will be issued free of charge so there is no money to be made by hiding the truth.

 

 

1 hour ago, durhamboy said:

You further say that the rules and regulations are there for all to see in the actual directives and guidance. Problem is that the directive (38) and the guidance are not entirely in sync therefore causing confusion. 

 

The only possible difference between what is in the guidance and the directive is your claim that the directive does not say "except the country you are a national of" or similar. As I have already said, I can't be arsed to trawl through to see if you are correct or not for the simple reason that your wife does not have a residence card as the family member of an EU national issued under the EEA regulations!

 

Therefore, as both the guidance and the directive clearly say, she needs a visa regardless of whether or not the words "except the country you are a national of" or similar appear anywhere in the directive.

 

1 hour ago, durhamboy said:

Btw, my username gives no indication as to where I live and it shouldn't be inferred that it does.

Fair enough; but London is not your only option for her to apply, and either Manchester or Edinburgh may be closer.

 

At least four people have advised you she needs a visa and it's best for her to get it in advance.

 

Up to you; get her visa in advance or be prepared to be denied boarding when you get to the airport.

 

I know what I would do.

[durhamboy]

Dear 7by7, thanks for your comments but I fear that we are, as happened many times before, getting into unnecessary arguments. There are a number of things I could come back to you on but I don't really think that it would serve much purpose so I will just thank you for confirming that my wife would be entitled to a visa on arrival.

 

I suspect that you are correct about a number of things but, in my opinion, the EU directives and related advice are not clear to me nor, I would venture, would it be clear to 99.9% of the EU/EEA population.

 

At the end of the day, we just want to go on a 10-day holiday and I am trying to assess my options about my wife's visa. The schengen info helpline I wrote to have written back to me asking for a copy of my wife's BRP which I have now sent. I suspect they will write back confirming your view that it is not acceptable for visa free travel to the EU. I will post what they say so hopefully others in this forum are not as confused as me when wanting to visit the EU. Brexit will no doubt change everything yet again.

[7by7]

21 hours ago, durhamboy said:

Dear 7by7, thanks for your comments but I fear that we are, as happened many times before, getting into unnecessary arguments.

I am not arguing, I am merely pointing out the facts, as is everyone else who has responded to you. 

 

You asked if your wife needed a visa to enter The Netherlands. You were told from the very first response that she does. It is your refusal to accept that simple fact which has led to lengthier and lengthier posts in an effort to educate you about the FoM directive and how it effects you and your wife.

 

But, yet again, you simply wont accept the answers you are given, and instead tried to convince us that we are all wrong!

 

As you seem to do this every time you come here for advice, I have to wonder why you have ever asked us for our advice at all!