Do you believe in God and why

[soalbundy]

4 hours ago, sirineou said:

A very profound question . So if we were to agree that has biomechanical factors ( for lack of a better term),

and that that memories necessary for thinking  have a specific location in the brain,then one needs to concede that there is a time factor assigned to each thought process.. So if that's correct there must be a section of time delineating one thought from another. and since we "think therefore we are"   where are we   when we are not thinking?

Do we cease to exist for that brief moment?

IMO we are in the realm of infinite possibilities (some might call it god) until these  possibilities are limited by onc's experiences and mental capacity. You can not consider that which you don't even know exists and you cant exceed your physical limitations.

a cursory analysis at best. Where are you between thoughts?  is a subject that one can spend a lifetime thinking about. Sorry if I confused more than I explained.

 

There is an interesting theory put forward by the cognitive scientist Donald Hoffman, that space-time doesn't exist as a reality, it is an interface for consciousness, the manifested universe with all its content are conscious agents, the seen 'reality' of which varies from species to species. It is all about the fitness for survival of the various species (which are themselves only conscious agents) Knowing the 'truth' ie. being aware of true reality would only hinder not help survival. There are mathematical equations describing evolution and he has added to these with equations describing consciousness (similar to the equations used in quantum mechanics). He often uses the metaphor of the symbol for your emails/documents on your desktop (interface), the symbol is not an email it gives you the possibility to read an email, if you saw and had to deal with the truth behind the symbol (transistors, resistors, electrical currents, computer language etc.) you would never get to read the email. With his team of physicists he built a virtual computer world peopled by beings with varying degrees of knowledge about the truth of their surroundings and their being. Those with the most knowledge of the truth died out almost immediately, in the end only those who were fixated on survival with no knowledge of the truth survived.

A very knowledgeable and humble man (I may be wrong, I probably am but my mathematics are precise and nobody yet can find fault with my equations) who studied neurobiology and the science of sight in order to work on AI where he eventually formulated his ideas. Incidentally his idea that space-time doesn't exist as a reality have been substantiated by an Italian mathematician and physicist, can all be found on Youtube.

[soalbundy]

5 hours ago, sirineou said:

A very profound question . So if we were to agree that has biomechanical factors ( for lack of a better term),

and that that memories necessary for thinking  have a specific location in the brain,then one needs to concede that there is a time factor assigned to each thought process.. So if that's correct there must be a section of time delineating one thought from another. and since we "think therefore we are"   where are we   when we are not thinking?

Do we cease to exist for that brief moment?

IMO we are in the realm of infinite possibilities (some might call it god) until these  possibilities are limited by onc's experiences and mental capacity. You can not consider that which you don't even know exists and you cant exceed your physical limitations.

a cursory analysis at best. Where are you between thoughts?  is a subject that one can spend a lifetime thinking about. Sorry if I confused more than I explained.

 

If, after your last thought, you pose the question, "I wonder what my next thought will be" you will find that a longer pause arises before the next thought, it is as if consciousness turns in on itself.

[canuckamuck]

11 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

There is an interesting theory put forward by the cognitive scientist Donald Hoffman, that space-time doesn't exist as a reality, it is an interface for consciousness, the manifested universe with all its content are conscious agents, the seen 'reality' of which varies from species to species. It is all about the fitness for survival of the various species (which are themselves only conscious agents) Knowing the 'truth' ie. being aware of true reality would only hinder not help survival. There are mathematical equations describing evolution and he has added to these with equations describing consciousness (similar to the equations used in quantum mechanics). He often uses the metaphor of the symbol for your emails/documents on your desktop (interface), the symbol is not an email it gives you the possibility to read an email, if you saw and had to deal with the truth behind the symbol (transistors, resistors, electrical currents, computer language etc.) you would never get to read the email. With his team of physicists he built a virtual computer world peopled by beings with varying degrees of knowledge about the truth of their surroundings and their being. Those with the most knowledge of the truth died out almost immediately, in the end only those who were fixated on survival with no knowledge of the truth survived.

A very knowledgeable and humble man (I may be wrong, I probably am but my mathematics are precise and nobody yet can find fault with my equations) who studied neurobiology and the science of sight in order to work on AI where he eventually formulated his ideas. Incidentally his idea that space-time doesn't exist as a reality have been substantiated by an Italian mathematician and physicist, can all be found on Youtube.

So on one hand we have people saying God doesn't exist because you can't see him or touch him. And on the other hand we have people saying that what we think we perceive is not real. Which puts believing in God in the middle as the centrist view.

[sirineou]

1 minute ago, canuckamuck said:

So on one hand we have people saying God doesn't exist because you can't see him or touch him. And on the other hand we have people saying that what we think we perceive is not real. Which puts believing in God in the middle as the centrist view.

God is simply a word , that has different meanings to different people. When I talk about God I talk about the biblical god as described within the bible. That there exists a reality that we have not fully assessed yet is undeniable.If you want to call that god, by all means do , it is just as good as any other name, except for the fact that it carries baggage that  limits discussion and exploration that will bring us closer to the truth.

[sirineou]

21 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

There is an interesting theory put forward by the cognitive scientist Donald Hoffman, that space-time doesn't exist as a reality, it is an interface for consciousness, the manifested universe with all its content are conscious agents, the seen 'reality' of which varies from species to species. It is all about the fitness for survival of the various species (which are themselves only conscious agents) Knowing the 'truth' ie. being aware of true reality would only hinder not help survival. There are mathematical equations describing evolution and he has added to these with equations describing consciousness (similar to the equations used in quantum mechanics). He often uses the metaphor of the symbol for your emails/documents on your desktop (interface), the symbol is not an email it gives you the possibility to read an email, if you saw and had to deal with the truth behind the symbol (transistors, resistors, electrical currents, computer language etc.) you would never get to read the email. With his team of physicists he built a virtual computer world peopled by beings with varying degrees of knowledge about the truth of their surroundings and their being. Those with the most knowledge of the truth died out almost immediately, in the end only those who were fixated on survival with no knowledge of the truth survived.

A very knowledgeable and humble man (I may be wrong, I probably am but my mathematics are precise and nobody yet can find fault with my equations) who studied neurobiology and the science of sight in order to work on AI where he eventually formulated his ideas. Incidentally his idea that space-time doesn't exist as a reality have been substantiated by an Italian mathematician and physicist, can all be found on Youtube.

I am not ignoring you, simply don't have time right now for a thoughtful reply. Perhaps later when I have more time,  i have a couple of conversations going and I am spreading my self too thin to give the above excellent post proper consideration. 

In the meantime,  consider this seemingly simple question " what came first the chicken or the egg?" 

the answer is obvious  but raises a number of other questions that I think fall within your above post;

The EGG!! the chicken is simply the egg's Idea of how to make another egg,

[soalbundy]

5 minutes ago, canuckamuck said:

So on one hand we have people saying God doesn't exist because you can't see him or touch him. And on the other hand we have people saying that what we think we perceive is not real. Which puts believing in God in the middle as the centrist view.

depends what you call God. God has many names and forms, that which is not understood is often called God, the sun, lightning, voices in the head. There are many physicists who postulate that our perceived reality doesn't exist, Einstein made the first move with his theory of relativity and Werner Heisenberg carried on the tradition with his uncertainty principle and started the quantum mechanics ball rolling, people like the cognitive scientist Donald Hoffman and Nasa physicist Thomas Campbell (My Big Toe, Theory Of Everything) the theoretical physicist Nima Arkani-Hamed of Princeton all carry on the work of showing that reality as we know it doesn't exist. What lies behind the manifestation and why is unknown, it certainly isn't the Abrahamic version of the creator, 'I am the lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt,out of the house of bondage thou shalt have no other Gods before me. For the lord thy God is a jealous God among you. Oooh calm down.

[soalbundy]

22 minutes ago, sirineou said:

I am not ignoring you, simply don't have time right now for a thoughtful reply. Perhaps later when I have more time,  i have a couple of conversations going and I am spreading my self too thin to give the above excellent post proper consideration. 

In the meantime,  consider this seemingly simple question " what came first the chicken or the egg?" 

the answer is obvious  but raises a number of other questions that I think fall within your above post;

The EGG!! the chicken is simply the egg's Idea of how to make another egg,

Or consider there is neither the egg nor the chicken. (there is no spoon, sound familiar)

[sirineou]

4 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Or consider there is neither the egg nor the chicken. (there is no spoon, sound familiar)

Indeed it does (metrix). same with ehe Egg, that would be the next question, What is an egg? if not a set of information on how to make a chicken to make an egg. So then you have to ask , "does anything other than information exists?" 

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23431191-500-inside-knowledge-is-information-the-only-thing-that-exists/

[canuckamuck]

33 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

<snip> it certainly isn't the Abrahamic version of the creator, <snip>

Why?

[mauGR1]

2 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

What about L ucy in the S ky with D iamonds? 

Uhmm, of that song the best thing is the title.

[mauGR1]

1 hour ago, Skeptic7 said:

Well this is something I've been saying since Genesis of this thread. Things can appear be true to an individual and not necessarily to the vast majority of others...or even not so to all others. 

 

To me it seems that each of the "spiritual" here have their own version and experiences SOLO. No shared interactions with others while in this altered state of mind. Which goes back to something I've pounded since the beginning...while personal experience seems real to the person experiencing, they mean nothing to anyone else. And cannot prove anything to anyone else. That's why they're called personal experience. 

Obviously an altered state of mind or a spiritual vision are personal.

But if i say that everything is created by an intelligent design, that includes you too.

Yet, nobody is forcing you to believe in an intelligent design, what you want to believe is entirely your choice.

[Skeptic7]

2 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Obviously an altered state of mind or a spiritual vision are personal.

But if i say that everything is created by an intelligent design, that includes you too.

Yet, nobody is forcing you to believe in an intelligent design, what you want to believe is entirely your choice.

What I want to believe is what's true...or as many true things as possible. 

[mauGR1]

1 minute ago, Skeptic7 said:

What I want to believe is what's true...or as many true things as possible. 

The same for me.

Not sure why i say this, but i would suggest everyone to stop watching the tv.

[Skeptic7]

34 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Uhmm, of that song the best thing is the title.

Or it's initials, which could certainly induce an altered...more creative...state of mind (realm). 

[mauGR1]

8 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

We've been over this before, but I'll try again as it's been quite a while. I don't have, nor claim, a personal reality. We all are sharing this reality where we live in (or spend considerable time in) Thailand and here on TV. Now whether we're just brains in vats or part of a computer program may be the case...I don’t think so, but even if so...we're all part of that particular (general) reality.

That is true if you consider just the physical world.

Yet, if we consider thoughts as the perceivable part of the spiritual world, a creative musician is in another reality compared, say, to a greedy banker, yet you could find them sitting close to each other in a theatre or a restaurant.

It's really not easy to define "reality".

[mauGR1]

1 minute ago, Skeptic7 said:

Or it's initials, which could certainly induce an altered...more creative...state of mind (realm). 

Absolutely, a gift from God , if you ask me

[mauGR1]

2 hours ago, soalbundy said:

Incidentally his idea that space-time doesn't exist as a reality have been substantiated by an Italian mathematician and physicist, can all be found on Youtube.

In the Hindu holy texts it's often reminded that all the "reality" is an illusion, including space and time.

[ThaiBunny]

9 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

Good stuff! I agree with everything you said, just wanted to add another dimension, so to speak.

Since we're talking about 'thinking' and that our freedom is influenced and limited by our thinking patterns, what would it mean if we could stop the thinking altogether, even if it's for a short time?

If our actions are a consequence of our thoughts and our thoughts are directed by limiting factors such as genes, environment, upbringing etc, how would our actions look like if they came from a place that is not dictated by those factors?

We are "trapped" if you like by our language; we are incapable of expressing something except by our language. The theologian Don Cupitt has already discussed that at some length - http://www.philosopherkings.co.uk/doncupitt.html

[mauGR1]

4 minutes ago, ThaiBunny said:

We are "trapped" if you like by our language; we are incapable of expressing something except by our language. The theologian Don Cupitt has already discussed that at some length - http://www.philosopherkings.co.uk/doncupitt.html

Have to say that my vision is very similar to Mr. Cupitt's vision.

[Sunmaster]

13 hours ago, sirineou said:

Where are you between thoughts?  is a subject that one can spend a lifetime thinking about.

This is getting exciting now. This is where we can go when we stop bickering about religions and start to look at things we all have in common: the capacity to think (and not think), for one.

Where am I between thoughts? Physically still in the same place, but what happens to the "I"? 
The "I" we all identify with has to be created and constantly supported by an inner narrative..."I was born in X, in a small house in Y"...."I am married"...."I like nature"...."I love animals"...etc.

Now, if we could stop the stream of thought in our mind, we could dis-identify with this constructed "I". Once we could do that, what would be left? Consciousness!

 

@soalbundy wrote:
If, after your last thought, you pose the question, "I wonder what my next thought will be" you will find that a longer pause arises before the next thought, it is as if consciousness turns in on itself.

 

This is precisely what meditation tries to accomplish! Expanding that space in between thoughts to dis-identify with the superficial "I". It clears the lens through which we look at the world and let's us see reality without the tainted glasses of the "I". First you step back and become the witness of these passing thoughts, eventually even the witness will disappear and melt with all-there-is.

Consciousness truly turns on itself! And when it does, what does it see?

The inner world I've been talking about for months. The realities the ancient Vedic scriptures described in detail almost 4.000 years ago. The heavenly realms described by Jesus. The unmanifested eternal Being in Hinduism and Nirvana in Buddhism. Many names for the ONE. This is what all of the religions have in common!
All of them were kick-started by one guy who had the ability to connect to those realms and described the way to do that to others. Problems arise when less and less people in that tradition have authentic communions to keep the path alive. If there are not enough such people in a religion, then it inevitably becomes an empty shell, rigid dogma based on rituals whose true meanings were lost. And that's why I always say: A religion has only value if it enables the individual to have a direct experience of the Source (= Pure Consciousness).

 

By turning consciousness (not thought!) inwards, we are able to access and have a direct experience of these states. Enlightenment is just another word for this clean, unaltered pure consciousness.
 

Of course it doesn't happen as easily as switching a light on and off. With the exception of some special individuals who were born with this blank consciousness (Ramana Maharishi, Jesus?...), it takes a lot of dedication and hard work to peel off the layers of the "I". 
But what grander adventure is there in life?!?

A lot to digest here so I better stop. But there's so much more that could be added...
Looking forward to read your opinions.





 

[Sunmaster]

6 hours ago, ThaiBunny said:

We are "trapped" if you like by our language; we are incapable of expressing something except by our language. The theologian Don Cupitt has already discussed that at some length - http://www.philosopherkings.co.uk/doncupitt.html

True, language is a very rudimentary and coarse form of communication, but until we can't communicate telepathically, our choices are limited. 

A great form to convey meaning without language is art and the use of symbols, music also. That's why they play an important role in all religions.

Edited December 28, 2019 by Sunmaster

[Thailand Forever]

Yes I believe in God.

Why? Because He is real.

[jvs]

I am really starting to enjoy reading this thread.what i have seen a lot and dont like

at all is people trying to say;because it is written somewhere or because i tell you

it is true.

I was raised with the bible but did not like it,later i read the koran,just to know

and it is also not my thing.

I met and talked to native Americans and like their way of thinking,all we have is

Mother Earth,you take care of her and she will provide for you.

I now realize i should be happy i have not read a lot of books on religion

and God.

It takes away your ability to think freely.

Generally i do not like [people quoting things because it makes you a follower,

I have had a lot of deja vous moments in my life.

Whenever something major comes up i can see myself after the fact being all right.

What is this?wishfull thinking?a guardian angel?something that shows me i have no free will because my path has already been determined?

For every answer i think i get there are many more questions that pop up.

Sometimes people ask me'why?i answer 'why not?

[mauGR1]

3 minutes ago, jvs said:

I met and talked to native Americans and like their way of thinking,all we have is

Mother Earth,you take care of her and she will provide for you.

I now realize i should be happy i have not read a lot of books on religion

and God.

It takes away your ability to think freely.

I think we should not throw away the baby with the dirty water, so to speak.

The concept of God is just a development of the concept of mother nature, none of those is supposed to shut your brain, and hinder you from developing your own concepts.

If i have to think about something who takes away your ability to think freely, television comes to mind... And your own biases, of course.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 12/27/2019 at 6:27 PM, jvs said:

This goes straight against what i believe,why would unbelievers be worse people?

People do bad things because?

On the other hand people do good things,why?

I believe so called good deeds are not really that,it is part of a reward system.

The person who buys a kid icecream does it because?In the end it makes him feel better.

He is rewarding himself,many more examples to give but i hope you catch my drift.

I have met atheists who are far better people then the people who condemn them.

Isnt god all about forgiveness and not judging other people?

Then again that is only one god out of 3000.

 

Who is condemning atheists on here?

[jvs]

18 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Who is condemning atheists on here?

However, those that believe are more likely to be good than those that believe in nothing.

Those are your words nobody used the word condemning but you.

Can you prove what you said?

[Sunmaster]

55 minutes ago, jvs said:

However, those that believe are more likely to be good than those that believe in nothing.

Those are your words nobody used the word condemning but you.

Can you prove what you said?

I think it's similar to the research about free will, where the people who didn't believe in free will were more likely to cheat at exams.

It's also a matter of core beliefs. People who believe that there's a higher force are probably more inclined to act in a certain way than people who see themselves separate from everything else. 

Of course it's not all black and white and there are plenty of examples that would suggest the opposite. 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2019 by Sunmaster

[jvs]

12 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

I think it's similar to the research about free will, where the people who didn't believe in free will were more likely to cheat at exams.

It's also a matter of core beliefs. People who believe that there's a higher force are probably more inclined to act in a certain way than people who see themselves separate from everything else. 

Of course it's not all black and white and there are plenty of examples that would suggest the opposite. 

 

 

This is where karma enters the conversation.

What i kind of tasted in thaibeachlovers response was believers are better people

compared to non believers,he probably will clarify that for us.

 

Edited December 28, 2019 by jvs

[Xaos]

I believe more in ancient aliens then god cuz got thier evidence all over the world. 

[Tagged]

5 minutes ago, Xaos said:

I believe more in ancient aliens then god cuz got thier evidence all over the world. 

 

 

If I am going to believe something without proof, this is what I choose to believe. 

 

"Ever since the discovery of organic molecules in a meteorite that landed in Australia about half a century ago, scientists have been tantalized by the possibility that the building blocks of life originated in space. New research is shedding light on how such compounds might have formed and found their way to Earth."

 

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-building-blocks-of-life-may-have-come-from-outer-space-3884354/